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Thread: For all you HAWK Fans

  1. #1
    Moose Rat HOFer woodbuck27's Avatar
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    For all you HAWK Fans

    History, depth could keep Hawk out of top five


    By Pat Kirwan
    NFL.com Senior Analyst


    (April 5, 2006) -- The NFL draft is getting closer, and there are teams that spend a lot of time on the history of where certain position players are selected.

    We regularly hear about the "elite" positions like quarterback, pass-rushing defensive ends, cover corners, defensive tackles with rare size/speed ratios, and offensive left tackles. The great ones at these positions get gobbled up quickly year in and year out. When multiple players end up the evaluation process with the same numerical grades, the position they play usually is the deciding factor.


    If A.J. Hawk goes in the top five, he would be the first linebacker to do it since 2000.
    With that in mind, this draft has the terrific Ohio State linebacker A.J. Hawk in the top 10 on every draft board. In fact, former Cleveland Browns head coach Butch Davis lists him as his top defensive player in the draft, which makes him a top-five player. The consensus opinion of the NFL personnel people and coaches I have spoken with is Hawk is about No. 5 or No. 6 on most draft boards at this early stage of "stacking" the draft board.

    Now the draft historians take a look at the success rate of taking a linebacker in the top of the draft. Linebackers have a checkered past in the draft.

    I went back as far as 1990 to look at the NFL draft patterns for all linebackers in the first round to see if there is a case to take Hawk as high as fifth in the draft, or is closer to 10th -- the comfort level people who study these patterns would like to see. (I eliminated the 'tweeners who became defensive ends; even though they were listed as linebackers, they were drafted to put their hand on the ground and rush the passer.)

    There were some interesting patterns over the past 16 years that will be discussed in war rooms around the league.

    Since 1990, there have been only 39 outside linebackers drafted in the first round, and only 15 inside/middle linebackers to hear their name called in the opening round. Let's take it a step further and look at how many of those 54 linebackers were drafted in the top 10 picks. Only eight outside linebackers and six inside/middle linebackers were top-10 selections since 1990. That's less than one per year.

    With Hawk up near the top of the board, I drilled down to see how many linebackers have been selected in the top five picks.

    Now the numbers are down to seven outside 'backers and only two inside guys. That's nine linebackers in the top five over the past 16 years. The average draft position in the first round for all linebackers is the 15th or 16th spot. The linebackers of note who have been picked late in the first round are Derrick Brooks (No. 28 in 1995), Ray Lewis (No. 26 in 1996) and Al Wilson (No. 31 in 1999), which looks as good or even better than the group drafted in the top five.


    NFL LINEBACKERS PICKED WITH A TOP FIVE PICK
    1990 Junior Seau
    1991 Mike Croel
    1992 Quentin Coryatt
    1993 Marvin Jones
    1994 Willie McGinest, Trev Albert
    1995 None
    1996 Kevin Hardy
    1997 Peter Boulware
    1998 None
    1999 None
    2000 LaVar Arrington
    2001 None
    2002 None
    2003 None
    2004 None
    2005 None




    As you can see, the pattern of drafting linebackers in the top five picks has really dropped off, so it will be difficult for Hawk to reverse this trend even though he deserves to be recognized as a top player in this draft. Hawk has 368 career tackles, 37 tackles for a loss and 14½ sacks (9½ in 2005).

    The depth at the linebacker position, which I believe is the deepest of all the defensive positions, could be another factor that could work against Hawk. Ernie Sims, Chad Greenway, DeMeco Ryans, Bobby Carpenter, Manny Lawson, Kamerion Wimbley and Thomas Howard among others who easily could be options for a team if it decides to select at another position early in the first round with thoughts of coming back in the early second round.
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  2. #2
    I've gone over the last 10 years of the draft to point out that almost all of the LBs drafted in the top 15 the last 10 years have been very good, and there are a ton of teams regretting their decisions to pass on a LB. Just because that's the way it's been doesn't mean those were the right decisions.

    2005
    Derrick Johnson, Shawne Merriman, and Demarcus Ware were passed up for guys like Adam Jones, Troy Williamson, Cedric Benson, and Mike Williams.

    2004
    Jonathan Vilman and D.J. Williams were passed up for guys like Kellen Winslow, Roy Williams, and Reggie Williams

    2003
    Nick Barnett was passed up for guys like Charles Rogers, Jonathan Sullivan, Jimmy Kennedy, Michael Haynes, Bryant Johnson, Calvin Pace, and Kyle Boller.

    2001
    Dan Morgan was passed up for guys like David Terrell and Jamal Reynolds.

    2000
    Brian Urlacher and Julian Peterson were passed up for guys like Peter Warrick, Thomas Jones, Travis Taylor, and Ron Dayne.

    1998
    Keith Brooking and Takeo Spikes were passed up for guys like Ryan Leaf, Andre Wadsworth, Curtis Enis, and Duane Starks.

    1997
    James Farrior was passed up for guys like Darrell Russell, Bryant Westbrook, and Ike Hilliard.

    1996
    John Mobley and Ray Lewis were passed up for guys like Cedric Jones, Lawrence Phillips, Rickey Dudley, Alex Molden, and Regan Upshaw.

  3. #3
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    In addition to this, just about every prospect has questions in the draft. The two for sure players to me are AJ Hawk and Ngata.

    Hawk is just such a knowledgeable player. He will at the very least be solid.

    Ngata's one job will to be to eat blockers. With his size and strength, that won't be a problem. He'll never be a pass rusher, but he is a good grady jackson figure. He knows the best candy!!

  4. #4
    Senior Rat Veteran billy_oliver880's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Partial
    Ngata's one job will to be to eat blockers. With his size and strength, that won't be a problem. He'll never be a pass rusher, but he is a good grady jackson figure. He knows the best candy!!
    I don't beleive in Ngata. I think hes going to be another guy like Hunt...lots of potential but never achieved greatness because of the lack of serious lack of effort. Oregon seems to beleive this guys an absolute dud. He might pop in here and tell you what he thinks.

  5. #5
    Hawk will never be like Ray Lewis or Urlacher but I think he might be better than them dropping back into coverage, which he will be expected to do. He's also a good blitzer, disrupts running lanes, and is a good tackler. Very good overall. Like Harv said, the ones that were picked high, panned out. I think he's the safest pick. For sure a starter right away.
    Thanks Ted!

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    Shutdown Rat All-Pro Charles Woodson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packrulz
    Hawk will never be like Ray Lewis or Urlacher but I think he might be better than them dropping back into coverage, which he will be expected to do. He's also a good blitzer, disrupts running lanes, and is a good tackler. Very good overall. Like Harv said, the ones that were picked high, panned out. I think he's the safest pick. For sure a starter right away.
    Thats debatable that hawk will NEVER be as good as lewis and urlacher. I mean he deffinetly wont be right away, but he could, no one knows the future. For all we know he could be the next super star LB. Proably not but i mean saying never is a lil harsh.

  7. #7
    You're right NB. I guess never was the wrong word. My point was that Hawk is probably more athletic and better in pass coverage but maybe not as good at stuffing the run, but that don't mean he never will be. If they take him I'll be happy. #5 ain't a bad place to be.
    Thanks Ted!

  8. #8
    Grandpa Rat HOFer The Shadow's Avatar
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    Hawk should be the pick - overwhelmingly.

  9. #9
    Shutdown Rat All-Pro Charles Woodson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterblaster
    Hawk should be the pick - overwhelmingly.
    Not neccesarily. And thats why we disscuse it. cause what about if Mario falls. That guy is a monster

  10. #10
    Shutdown Rat All-Pro Charles Woodson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterblaster
    Hawk should be the pick - overwhelmingly.



    C'mon, just look at him.

  11. #11
    Anti Homer Rat HOFer Bretsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarveyWallbangers
    I've gone over the last 10 years of the draft to point out that almost all of the LBs drafted in the top 15 the last 10 years have been very good, and there are a ton of teams regretting their decisions to pass on a LB. Just because that's the way it's been doesn't mean those were the right decisions.

    2005
    Derrick Johnson, Shawne Merriman, and Demarcus Ware were passed up for guys like Adam Jones, Troy Williamson, Cedric Benson, and Mike Williams.

    2004
    Jonathan Vilman and D.J. Williams were passed up for guys like Kellen Winslow, Roy Williams, and Reggie Williams

    2003
    Nick Barnett was passed up for guys like Charles Rogers, Jonathan Sullivan, Jimmy Kennedy, Michael Haynes, Bryant Johnson, Calvin Pace, and Kyle Boller.

    2001
    Dan Morgan was passed up for guys like David Terrell and Jamal Reynolds.

    2000
    Brian Urlacher and Julian Peterson were passed up for guys like Peter Warrick, Thomas Jones, Travis Taylor, and Ron Dayne.

    1998
    Keith Brooking and Takeo Spikes were passed up for guys like Ryan Leaf, Andre Wadsworth, Curtis Enis, and Duane Starks.

    1997
    James Farrior was passed up for guys like Darrell Russell, Bryant Westbrook, and Ike Hilliard.

    1996
    John Mobley and Ray Lewis were passed up for guys like Cedric Jones, Lawrence Phillips, Rickey Dudley, Alex Molden, and Regan Upshaw.

    Ron Dayne and Travis Taylor were not picked above Urlacher

  12. #12
    Shutdown Rat All-Pro Charles Woodson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bretsky
    Quote Originally Posted by HarveyWallbangers
    I've gone over the last 10 years of the draft to point out that almost all of the LBs drafted in the top 15 the last 10 years have been very good, and there are a ton of teams regretting their decisions to pass on a LB. Just because that's the way it's been doesn't mean those were the right decisions.

    2005
    Derrick Johnson, Shawne Merriman, and Demarcus Ware were passed up for guys like Adam Jones, Troy Williamson, Cedric Benson, and Mike Williams.

    2004
    Jonathan Vilman and D.J. Williams were passed up for guys like Kellen Winslow, Roy Williams, and Reggie Williams

    2003
    Nick Barnett was passed up for guys like Charles Rogers, Jonathan Sullivan, Jimmy Kennedy, Michael Haynes, Bryant Johnson, Calvin Pace, and Kyle Boller.

    2001
    Dan Morgan was passed up for guys like David Terrell and Jamal Reynolds.

    2000
    Brian Urlacher and Julian Peterson were passed up for guys like Peter Warrick, Thomas Jones, Travis Taylor, and Ron Dayne.

    1998
    Keith Brooking and Takeo Spikes were passed up for guys like Ryan Leaf, Andre Wadsworth, Curtis Enis, and Duane Starks.

    1997
    James Farrior was passed up for guys like Darrell Russell, Bryant Westbrook, and Ike Hilliard.

    1996
    John Mobley and Ray Lewis were passed up for guys like Cedric Jones, Lawrence Phillips, Rickey Dudley, Alex Molden, and Regan Upshaw.

    Ron Dayne and Travis Taylor were not picked above Urlacher
    1st Round Picks: 2000
    PK(OVR) TEAM NAME POS SCHOOL
    1(1) Cleveland COURTNEY BROWN DE PENN STATE
    2(2) Washington LAVAR ARRINGTON LB PENN STATE
    3(3) Washington CHRIS SAMUELS OT ALABAMA
    4(4) Cincinnati PETER WARRICK WR FLORIDA STATE
    5(5) Baltimore JAMAL LEWIS RB TENNESSEE
    6(6) Philadelphia COREY SIMON DT FLORIDA STATE
    7(7) Arizona THOMAS JONES RB VIRGINIA
    8(8) Pittsburgh PLAXICO BURRESS WR MICHIGAN STATE
    9(9) Chicago BRIAN URLACHER LB NEW MEXICO
    10(10) Baltimore TRAVIS TAYLOR WR FLORIDA
    11(11) NY Giants RON DAYNE RB WISCONSIN
    12(12) NY Jets SHAUN ELLIS DE TENNESSEE
    13(13) NY Jets JOHN ABRAHAM LB SOUTH CAROLINA
    14(14) Green Bay BUBBA FRANKS TE MIAMI (FLA.)
    15(15) Denver DELTHA O'NEAL DB CALIFORNIA
    16(16) San Francisco JULIAN PETERSON LB MICHIGAN STATE
    17(17) Oakland SEBASTIAN JANIKOWSKI K FLORIDA STATE
    18(18) NY Jets CHAD PENNINGTON QB MARSHALL
    19(19) Seattle SHAUN ALEXANDER RB ALABAMA
    20(20) Detroit STOCKAR MCDOUGLE OT OKLAHOMA
    21(21) Kansas City SYLVESTER MORRIS WR JACKSON STATE
    22(22) Seattle CHRIS MCINTOSH OT WISCONSIN
    23(23) Carolina RASHARD ANDERSON DB JACKSON STATE
    24(24) San Francisco AHMED PLUMMER DB OHIO STATE
    25(25) Minnesota CHRIS HOVAN DT BOSTON COLLEGE
    26(26) Buffalo ERIK FLOWERS DE ARIZONA STATE
    27(27) NY Jets ANTHONY BECHT TE WEST VIRGINIA
    28(28) Indianapolis ROB MORRIS LB BYU
    29(29) Jacksonville R. JAY SOWARD WR USC
    30(30) Tennessee KEITH BULLUCK LB SYRACUSE
    31(31) St. Louis TRUNG CANDIDATE RB ARIZONA

  13. #13
    Shutdown Rat All-Pro Charles Woodson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarveyWallbangers
    2000
    Brian Urlacher and Julian Peterson were passed up for guys like Peter Warrick, Thomas Jones, Travis Taylor, and Ron Dayne.
    Yet u could argue that shaun alexander was passed up for ppl like peterson and urlacher

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Bretsky
    Ron Dayne and Travis Taylor were not picked above Urlacher
    They went above Peterson.

    I didn't say Urlacher was passed up by Dayne. I said Urlacher and Peterson were passed up by guys like Dayne, Taylor, etc. Worded poorly, but you get my point. Urlacher was passed up for a couple of stiffs, and Peterson was passed up by even more stiffs.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Barnett
    Yet u could argue that shaun alexander was passed up for ppl like peterson and urlacher
    Right. You could do this for any position, but I think it's pretty stupid to say that a LB shouldn't go in the top 5-10. Just look at the history of the draft. There are plenty of times when you look back and say a LB should have gone in the top 5-10.

  16. #16
    Anti Homer Rat HOFer Bretsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarveyWallbangers
    Quote Originally Posted by Bretsky
    Ron Dayne and Travis Taylor were not picked above Urlacher
    They went above Peterson.

    I didn't say Urlacher was passed up by Dayne. I said Urlacher and Peterson were passed up by guys like Dayne, Taylor, etc. Worded poorly, but you get my point. Urlacher was passed up for a couple of stiffs, and Peterson was passed up by even more stiffs.

    You've called me on a few; couldn't resist the opportunity to correct your verbage when I saw the Dayne Urlacher reference cause I knew that wasn't true.

  17. #17
    Theres one part about this I don't get; why does everyone worry so much about the number? I mean if we have the number 5 pick and want some unherralded kid that was projected to go at 14, who really cares? We take who we want regardless of the number. Except for whoever 1-4 takes, we have our pick of anyone, don't we?
    "Greatness is not an act... but a habit.Greatness is not an act... but a habit." -Greg Jennings

  18. #18
    Neo Rat HOFer Fritz's Avatar
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    Bretsky, I've been busting you a little in a couple threads - we disagree on TT, and on some draft choices. But I have to say this: I was with you on Odell Thurman last year. I was hoping TT would trade down a few spaces, pick up another third round pick, and grab Thurman. And we were right on him, too. He had a heck of a year.

    This year, Bobby Carpenter of Hohio State is my man. I think he was nearly as good as Hawk.

  19. #19
    Anti Homer Rat HOFer Bretsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fritz
    Bretsky, I've been busting you a little in a couple threads - we disagree on TT, and on some draft choices. But I have to say this: I was with you on Odell Thurman last year. I was hoping TT would trade down a few spaces, pick up another third round pick, and grab Thurman. And we were right on him, too. He had a heck of a year.

    This year, Bobby Carpenter of Hohio State is my man. I think he was nearly as good as Hawk.
    FRITZ,

    Well, we definitely agree two years in a row then ! I've actually been pitching the idea of Hawk in round one and Carpenter in round two. Our LBing crew would go from a weakness to a strength for many years to come.

    AJ Hawk is going to be a wonderful pro, and it's probably that Carpenter will as well.

  20. #20
    Anti Homer Rat HOFer Bretsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fritz
    Bretsky, I've been busting you a little in a couple threads - we disagree on TT, and on some draft choices. But I have to say this: I was with you on Odell Thurman last year. I was hoping TT would trade down a few spaces, pick up another third round pick, and grab Thurman. And we were right on him, too. He had a heck of a year.

    This year, Bobby Carpenter of Hohio State is my man. I think he was nearly as good as Hawk.
    FRITZ,

    I remember that from rapping with you last year. It would have been an easy plan to execute. Find some sucker to trade up 7-10 spots to get Aaron Rodgers, and draft Odell Thurman and Nick Collins. Boy that would have been a sweet draft right there, pluse they'd have added a 3rd round pick.

    Now all signs are pointing that they are actually considering Vince Young, and that is just as much a reflection on Rodgers as it is on how good Young might be.

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