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Thread: Understanding the Neal Pick

  1. #1
    Obscure Rat HOFer Lurker64's Avatar
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    Understanding the Neal Pick

    Initially, I was thinking "huh" and "this is a reach" and "this isn't a position of need" in response to the pick. But I try not to be particularly emotional about these things (at least half of all picks won't work out, no matter where they're drafted or at what position, and after thinking about it I think I understand it better and better. I'm not saying I love the pick, I'm just saying I understand it and I'm convinced it's not a terrible pick.

    First of all, let's look at some of Ted's tendencies. Ted tends to value the following things a lot in draft prospects (in no particular order):
    1) Size
    2) Functional athleticism (relative to position).
    3) Leadership
    4) Work Ethic.
    5) Stepped up performance against elite competition (inc. performing well in college all-star games).

    When evaluated from this perspective, the Neal pick is perfectly predictable. I didn't have him on my radar before the draft (I honestly didn't pay that much attention to Purdue), but in retrospect it seems like a slam dunk for Ted's tendencies. First of all, he's 6-4 295 with 33" arms, which is both large and somewhat ideal size for playing his position in the defense (5-technique). He's also immensely strong with great burst, putting up 31 reps at the combine, and having a 1.60 second 10-yard split, better than some of the pure pass rushers; strength and burst are probably the most important measurables for the trenches. He was a team captain at Purdue. He was a weight room junkie, having bench pressed 500+ several times in his career. He also performed very well in both the East-West Shrine Game and the Senior Bowl practices. So you can really tick the box next to almost all of Ted's favorite things.

    If you go around and read a lot of the draft analysts who aren't professional scouts you will get things like: "Motor runs hot and cold", "Stamina is an issue", "There are questions about his consistency, that he takes plays off. Conditioning has been poor.", "stands around too much when the play gets away from him". However, to me, this smacks of guys who watch tape, but don't really watch whole games. Certainly, he's guilty of some of these things, but the mitigating factor is that in the Purdue defense, they never rotated him out. Which lead to him playing 70-80 snaps a game. There's not a defensive tackle in the NFL who could play 70-80 snaps without "taking plays off" or "having an inconsistent motor." 300 pound bodies just can't go at 100% for an entire game, which is why teams rotate their defensive linemen. This is something that you would notice if you watched an entire game, but not something you'll see from just watching tape on a prospect. So don't trust any accounts of "laziness" or "inconsistent motor". The knocks on him about "doesn't have a counter" are accurate, but this is something that can be corrected by coaching. No college player is perfect after all.

    Also, looking at positional value, mid second round is a reasonable place to get 5-technique defensive linemen. It's about where Igor Olshansky was drafted, and Neal compares positively to Olshansky coming out of college.

    So not a perfect pick, but not necessarily a bad one. It's a pick that's worthy of giving the benefit of the doubt because there's not an NFL front office that doesn't do a more in-depth job scouting college prospects than whoever your favorite draft analyst is. Even the very good ones (Mike Mayock, Wes Bunting, etc.) don't have nearly the knowledge base that teams do. When teams scout, they have regional scouts that live in the area, attend as many games and practices as they can, and speak to coaches when convenient. Any scout who is simply assigned to the players in a relatively small region, is going to do a better job with the prospects of that region than any national analyst. There's simply too much football for any one man to watch all of it.
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    Obscure Rat HOFer Lurker64's Avatar
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    Oh, and I almost forgot to address the "isn't a position of need" angle. While I'll admit that the defensive line is not a critical need, this pick addresses the following concerns:

    -Justin Harrell is unable to get in the field
    -Cullen Jenkins and Johnny Jolly are in contract years.
    -Johnny Jolly's availability may be compromised by his legal woes.
    -There are concerns about Jenkins' age (29) and durability.
    -There are concerns about Jolly's maturity; will he still play hard after making millions?
    -Raji is slightly out of position in the 5-tech.
    -Other than the guys mentioned, the defensive line rotation isn't very impressive.
    --Montgomery is gone, and wasn't very good to begin with.
    --Jarius Wynn and Ronald Talley both lack the functional strength to be effective members of a rotation at DE; despite potential both will get pushed around by NFL blockers.

    We'll keep five DL active on game days, expect Jolly, Jenkins, Pickett, Raji, and Neal (barring a miracle from Harrell).
    </delurk>

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    Euro Rat HOFer mmmdk's Avatar
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    Thanx a zillion; I was pondering this pick quite a bit.
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  4. #4
    I understand the pick, the guy can lift 500lbs and is a good 5 technique player, but I still wonder if TT still could've drafted him 30 picks later. Even if he had been taken, guys like Al Woods, LSU, Cam Thomas, NC, and Corey Wooton, Northwestern are still on the board. I guess they figured Neal was no longer a secret after the senior bowl and felt he was perfect for Capers D.
    Thanks Ted!

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    Senior Rat All-Pro twoseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packrulz
    I understand the pick, the guy can lift 500lbs and is a good 5 technique player, but I still wonder if TT still could've drafted him 30 picks later. Even if he had been taken, guys like Al Woods, LSU, Cam Thomas, NC, and Corey Wooton, Northwestern are still on the board. I guess they figured Neal was no longer a secret after the senior bowl and felt he was perfect for Capers D.
    adding on to these posts and just wondering, where else could we have gone with the pick? was there a 3-4 OLB to play opposite Matthews sitting there with #65 overall or greater value? i am assuming we got our man at safety in the third, so how else could things have been crafted with that second pick, other than a trade down which is never as easy as we make it seem here?

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    Postal Rat HOFer Joemailman's Avatar
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    I actually had him on my radar a bit. I was just thinking 3-4 round, not 2nd. I think the Jolly situation probably caused Ted to take him rather than wait a round and risk losing him.
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    Senior Rat All-Pro twoseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joemailman
    I actually had him on my radar a bit. I was just thinking 3-4 round, not 2nd. I think the Jolly situation probably caused Ted to take him rather than wait a round and risk losing him.
    that's the one that too many people never bring up, where a player is on your board versus how likely they are to still be around when your pick is actually up. to me it is as simple as if we could have known that we would have acquired the three players we got and would not be picking again until the fifth round, did we actually spend our picks wisely? i think bulaga and burnett are arguably of greater value or even steals based upon where we picked them, so if Neal is a bit overvalued, we're still in the black.

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    Senior Rat HOFer ND72's Avatar
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    You never know what Ted's board looks like either. For all we know, Neal was the top player on his board when they picked him. Since they don't know what others people boards are, knowing that guy might be there 10 picks later isn't functional.

    Personally, I guessed we would take a 3-4 DE, and I even had Neal on the list of possible guys. I did think he would be a 3rd round guy, so end of the 2nd round I don't really see as a reach, but obviously all of the "experts" have their opinion.
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  9. #9
    Lunatic Rat HOFer RashanGary's Avatar
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    You're making a lot of sense, Lurker.


    If you read McGinn's, "what they were saying" article, scouts had him anywhere from 2nd to 4th rounds, mostly 2nd.

    The area scout for our team that talked about him sounded really excited. Ted said he didn't scout him as much as the area scout and Dorsey did but was impressed with his shrine and senior bowl tape.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ND72
    You never know what Ted's board looks like either. For all we know, Neal was the top player on his board when they picked him. Since they don't know what others people boards are, knowing that guy might be there 10 picks later isn't functional.

    Personally, I guessed we would take a 3-4 DE, and I even had Neal on the list of possible guys. I did think he would be a 3rd round guy, so end of the 2nd round I don't really see as a reach, but obviously all of the "experts" have their opinion.

    As you get late into the 2nd round, there is more and more disparity among draft boards. It only takes one team to take the guy you targeted. I think it's nonsense to say with any kind of certainty that this or that guy would still be available once you get out of the first round.

  11. #11
    Neo Rat HOFer Fritz's Avatar
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    Excellent posts, everyone. Good point about not "knowing" if someone will be available a round later, and Lurk, fine analysis of TT's preferences and how Neal fits that. I feel a little better now about this pick, and also have to remind myself that the game is about the trenches, and who knows how Jenkins/Jolly/Harrell will work out?

  12. #12
    Lunatic Rat HOFer RashanGary's Avatar
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    I made some guarantees at FF in the guarantee thread. One came true, one is well on it's way and one I missed on, but drafting a DL didn't shock me.


    1. The Packers will not trade back more than one pick. Thompson has hinted the last couple years that he doesn't need to accumulate as many picks. In the past, he'd trade down, being perfectly happy getting any of several players with an equal grade. Now, his roster is rounding into better shape and he can sit tight and let the need tiebreaker dictate the pick.

    2. We will draft a corner in the first 3 rounds. There are quite a few good ones and we really need them.

    3. This is a particularly deep DL draft. At some point, Ted's a BPA guy, I think we'll end up with one even though it's one of our deepest positions.

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    Legendary Rat HOFer vince's Avatar
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    Legendary Rat HOFer vince's Avatar
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    I'm not sure we "need" a corner as badly as you think Justin. Lee and Underwood could turn out to be as good as many of the really good corners you see in this CB deep draft. We just don't know until we see them play. And Lee, in particular, was pretty good in college - good enough to garner a second round selection that nobody complained about.

    We only really NEED a corner if we assume that Jarrett Bush is going to be our nickel back to finish the season again. That was a fluke. Terrible luck. We won't be finishing every single season with 3 of our top 5 corners on IR.
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  16. #16
    Skeptical Rat HOFer wist43's Avatar
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    I don't mind the pick per se... but everyone has to admit, it does nothing for us this year, and should we lose Jolly and/or Jenkins, then we simply remain static at that position - and static for a team that was ousted in the first round of the playoffs in humiliating fashion, isn't going to win you any championships.

    As I've said, I haven't studied this years draft, don't know anything about the guy... but that doesn't really matter at least in terms of team building. If your BPA every pick is a TE... you can't win with 53 TE's.

    The best that can be said, is we stay the same up front; which, as noted, wasn't good enough to begin with.
    wist

  17. #17
    Lunatic Rat HOFer RashanGary's Avatar
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    Wist, how many DL do you think we have?

    Because by my count, we have 3 proven good ones and 2 quality young prospects. Raji has done very little since coming here, although there is a lot of reason for hope.


    Weren't you the guy talking about needed 3 good corners and 2 good prospects?

    Why can't we have 3 good DL and 2 good prospects? Is DL not more important than CB? What am I missing. And none of our DL are stars. Jolly is the most complete of the bunch and he's not a star. He's just really good. They're all good. It's not like we have 4 stars. Oh, and Raji really didn't do much last year. If anything, he's still a prospect too. So we have 3 good ones, two coming up to UFA, one of those two with a drug/court issue and two good young prospects. I know you're the guy who always complained about the trenches. How is this overboard. How does this pick not help.

  18. #18
    Lunatic Rat HOFer RashanGary's Avatar
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    Even if everyone is healthy all year, we start 3 DL. We'll play 5 deep with the rotation. If someone goes down, we would have suffered pretty bad without a good backup. You seem to get that with the CB's, but on DL, you think 1 backup is fine? I don't get your logic.

  19. #19
    I never complain about a defensive lineman being drafted. So many of them don't pan out, and it's a rotation position, so you have to play the numbers game.

  20. #20
    Obscure Rat HOFer Lurker64's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wist43
    I don't mind the pick per se... but everyone has to admit, it does nothing for us this year
    I'm not sure I agree. Right now the rotation at NT is Pickett and Raji and the rotation at DE is Jenkins, Jolly, Neal, and Raji. You need to rotate the big guys to keep them fresh.

    I think both Wynn and Talley are at least a year out.
    </delurk>

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