THE PACKERS OFFENSIVE LINE --- BAFFLING

[Bretsky]

A few, like Harlan have referred to this in here. But I'd just like to say to Ted Thompson...as Vince use to say, "WHAT the hell is going on in here ?"

We had one of the worst offensive lines in the NFL last year

We lost our starting Center, who was a bit above average "when" healthy.

We may have a decent backup Center who didn't fair that well at Guard

We had a rotating guard pool last year that was nothing short of pathetic

We had a fifth round draft pick at OG not good enough to get on the field

And we had another practice squad rookie (like Herrion) who's being hyped

Say it ain't so, TT, PLEASE don't tell me we this is what we're taking to training camp next year to find three new starters.

TT apologists thrive on saying "Show me players" that Green Bay could have signed that would have immediately helped our football team ?

To them, I say, LOOK AT THE INTERIOR OF OUR OFFENSIVE LINE NOW, AND START FORMING THE LONG LIST.

From the start of free agency, it should have been the goal of Ted Thompson to shore up the talent on both the offense and defense. Doing that starts with the offensive line. And there were PLENTY of OG's who are heads and heels above Will Whittaker, Julius Coston, Scott Wells, Adrian Klemm, and the other yahoos we have competing for postions on the interior line.

THREE open positions. Come on TT, at bare minimum we should have been looking for two starters. We had the money. We didn't have to break any banks for this. But then let Wells, Coston, White, Whittaker and sub par company fight it out for the last spot.

Are we seriously taking this group, and maybe a rookie, into 2006 ?

Inexcusable

[Bretsky]

BLOG FROM PRO FOOTBALL WEEKLY

Packers legend waiting for a sign(ing) to return
By Chris Neubauer (cneubauer@pfwmedia.com)
April 14, 2006





The Packers are reportedly interested in signing ex-Redskins LB LaVar Arrington.

Excuse me, I have a question.

Mr. Arrington, can you play center?

The Packers are also reportedly interested in signing former Heisman Trophy winner Charles Woodson, a cornerback who's being projected as a safety in the not-so-near-future.

Mr. Woodson, you played a few snaps on offense in college with the Wolverines any interest in returning to Brett Favre’s side of the field to play some wideout?

The future Hall of Fame signalcaller has repeatedly said in the past few months that he wants the Packers to improve (read: spend some money on some QUALITY free agents) before he will commit to returning to Lambeau Field in 2006. If he doesn’t see ample improvement, Favre has stated that he will retire.

But spending their $19 million of cap room to sign Arrington and Woodson won’t cure the Packers’ biggest weakness. And, more importantly, neither acquisition would bring Favre back.

The Packers need help on the O-line after losing OLG Mike Wahle (Panthers) and ORG Marco Rivera (Cowboys) in free agency last season and C Mike Flanagan (Texans) this year.

The Packers could use another receiver or two, especially if WR Javon Walker follows through on his threat to stand on the sideline and cry like Adam Morrison until he gets traded.

Woodson is a cornerback or free safety — that’s where the Bucs, the other finalist for Woodson’s services want to play him.

Arrington is a linebacker.

Can you blame Favre for not wanting to come back?

Not after the beating he endured last season.

Favre was sacked 24 times, had the 31st-best passer rating (70.9) and didn’t throw a touchdown pass in the entire month of December. His Packers lost 12 games.

At a charity golf tournament in Mississippi last weekend, Favre held a press conference to announce that he was still undecided about his return. Whispers became chatter as everyone suddenly had an opinion about Favre’s decision and they all said that he’s taking too long to make up his mind.

Take your time, Brett. You deserve it. You earned it.

[MJZiggy]

I don't think we're taking this group. Didn't M3 just last week say that we're by no means finished with player acquisition? That finding talent is a 12-month-a-year job? I'm praying he means guards. Then again, I'm intrigued by what Jags might do.

[Bretsky]

I don't think we're taking this group. Didn't M3 just last week say that we're by no means finished with player acquisition? That finding talent is a 12-month-a-year job? I'm praying he means guards. Then again, I'm intrigued by what Jags might do.

I've been watching lineman after lineman go and LB after LB go off the free agency boards. I don't think there is crap left to choose from at C or OG.
And it would surprise me if quality shows up as a June salary cut.

[esoxx]

Good thread B. What puzzles me is TT flat out admitted that if he had one regret last year it was the guard situation. We can debate until we're blue in the face about whether Wahle could have been signed (he should have been of course), but the replacements were all on TT. So, what has he done to remedy this glaring oversight......Yeah.

Whitticker is a dead man walking in this scheme so he's out. Big and clumsy is not idea here in zone blocking. Klemm is a T this year, thank god. There are green draft picks and street FA's from last year, is that the plan???

So, we are left with trust. Trust TT that he has a master plan for this line. Yes, three interior line spots and not a front runner in the bunch. Street FA's and draft picks for these crucial positions? I guess so. Remember the key word: Trust.

If I'm Favre I hang them up rather than trust this piece of crap line in the making. It's suicide.

[Fritz]

Where's the names, Bretsky? Did you mean Barry Stokes? Or were you talking about LeCharles Bentley, whose contract was way out of line with his production?

Steve Hutchinson? Yes, a fantastic player, but did you want a guy to come in at the guard position and become the highest-paid offensive lineman on your team?

Is it possible that out of the group of four - Coston, Whitticker, Wells, White - that two of them might in fact be legitimate NFL players this year? Most offensive lineman - with the exception of Tauscher - don't just step in and play well right away. Marco Rivera didn't. Mike Wahle didn't.

[Bretsky]

Where's the names, Bretsky? Did you mean Barry Stokes? Or were you talking about LeCharles Bentley, whose contract was way out of line with his production?

Steve Hutchinson? Yes, a fantastic player, but did you want a guy to come in at the guard position and become the highest-paid offensive lineman on your team?

Is it possible that out of the group of four - Coston, Whitticker, Wells, White - that two of them might in fact be legitimate NFL players this year? Most offensive lineman - with the exception of Tauscher - don't just step in and play well right away. Marco Rivera didn't. Mike Wahle didn't.

FRITZ,

It's possible the Packers can find two OL at a gas station like they found Roell Preston. Do you want names of guy who would immediately help them ? Notice I say help them, not save them. But it's about improvement, and we have seen none yet.

B

[Bretsky]

Where's the names, Bretsky? Did you mean Barry Stokes? Or were you talking about LeCharles Bentley, whose contract was way out of line with his production?

Steve Hutchinson? Yes, a fantastic player, but did you want a guy to come in at the guard position and become the highest-paid offensive lineman on your team?

Is it possible that out of the group of four - Coston, Whitticker, Wells, White - that two of them might in fact be legitimate NFL players this year? Most offensive lineman - with the exception of Tauscher - don't just step in and play well right away. Marco Rivera didn't. Mike Wahle didn't.

HERE YA GO

C
Justin Hartwig
Kevin Mawae
Seth McKinnie
Trey Teague


NOTE; All three are similar players to Flanagen. There are several others better than Wells who have signed as well.

OG
Stephen Neal
Andre Gurode
Vince Manuwai
Sean Mahan
Jonathon Goodwin
Derrick Dockery
Larry Allen (nice fill in while the other guys fight it out)
Jason Whittle

NOTE: None of these guys are expensive superstars, but all would do well in a competition against Adrian Klemm, Whittaker, Coston, Wells, and White. And there are plenty more better than the fellows above.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Larry Allen (nice fill in while the other guys fight it out)

I see Larry Allen on ESPN-CLassic football games. Pat Summerall and Curt Gowdy are the announcers.

[Fritz]

Brets, we definitely have different philosophies - you're on the Shore Patrol and I'm not there with this team. I see that you're trying to get Favre some help for the right now, but in my estimation this would only retard the development of the young guys and would end up with the Packers treading water, like in an 8-8 record.

I respect your opinion - as always - but would like to see the Packers develop the youngsters so that in two years this team is back in the playoffs, not as a band-aided bunch of oldsters huffing their way to a first-round playoff loss, but as an up-and-coming team headed for the Super Bowl.

[Bretsky]

Brets, we definitely have different philosophies - you're on the Shore Patrol and I'm not there with this team. I see that you're trying to get Favre some help for the right now, but in my estimation this would only retard the development of the young guys and would end up with the Packers treading water, like in an 8-8 record.

I respect your opinion - as always - but would like to see the Packers develop the youngsters so that in two years this team is back in the playoffs, not as a band-aided bunch of oldsters huffing their way to a first-round playoff loss, but as an up-and-coming team headed for the Super Bowl.

Thanks Fritz; we have to agree to disagree since I'm still in denial about rebuilding mode. Now once I hear Favre retire, then I'd fall closer to your views. But also, I don't see potential in guys like Coston and White and Whittaker until they show me something. Maybe they will soon, but I won't trust them til I do and since I want to win now I want more changes.

To me, before the offseason the best case scenario was for TT to aggressively go into free agency to shore the team up, have two good drafts, and I thought we could be contenders the year after this next one if Favre would give us two more years. Let him go out on top like Elway. But again, as you noted, that's the shore patrol, and rebuilding denial, speaking.

[Fritz]

Of course too I have to admit that it could be fantastical thinking to imagine that Coston and Whitticker will become the next Wahle and Rivera.

Ultimately it's probably more important though that A-Rod does not become the next Rich Campbell.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Neither Wahle nor Rivera were world beaters as rookies.

[ND72]

I don't know if it's on here, but i'm a ND guy....if we can get some extra picks....JEFF FAINE...PLEASE!!! i'm sorry, i absolutely love the guy. I used some Notre DAme game film of his to use in my offensive line meetings and coaching clinics. the guy is nasty, and can be amazingly good, especially in a zone blocking offense. ted needs to pull the string.

[retailguy]

Bretsky,

The Packer OL is going to be improved this year by adding NO ONE.

You really just need to trust Thompson. He tanked the OL knowing that then he could tank Sherman.

Now that we don't need guards that can "pull", the guys we've got will be just fine. I'm not worried about the OL, regardless of who plays QB.

I think the "system" that they are installing will cover the poor play or athleticism of the guards that they plug in. Atlanta's OL is proof of that. Bunch of no name lunch pail guys and they outshined half of the "true studs" in this league. It'll work for another couple of years until defenses catch up with it. It is the new "trendy" thing.

The biggest problem with GB this year will be the rookie head coach and staff. It'll look a lot like the Detroit game from last year early in the year. They need time to "jell" and they won't do it in 4 preseason games.

By the end of the season, if the "scheme" works they should be playing pretty good football. If the "scheme" doesn't work, we'll know we're in for a few more years of 4-12.

[ND72]

just make sure the guys can pass protect. i know our tackles can, i'm pretty sure if wells is at center he's fine. but you are right, run blocking will improve, or should improve.

[retailguy]

just make sure the guys can pass protect. i know our tackles can, i'm pretty sure if wells is at center he's fine. but you are right, run blocking will improve, or should improve.

Agreed, but I don't believe pass protection was the REAL problem last year. I think the real problems stemmed from the inability to run. Sherman's whole offense centered around the ability to run. When we lost that, it "negated" the 8th man in the box, which limited passing options, which caused it to appear as if pass blocking was suspect. I don't believe it was. There just wasn't anyone open after the WR corps was decimated and the 8th guy didn't need to play in the box.

[ND72]

very good point. when there is no threat to run, then the pass rush comes harder, and less guys are up near the line of scrimmage.

[Bretsky]

Bretsky,

The Packer OL is going to be improved this year by adding NO ONE.

You really just need to trust Thompson. He tanked the OL knowing that then he could tank Sherman.

Now that we don't need guards that can "pull", the guys we've got will be just fine. I'm not worried about the OL, regardless of who plays QB.

I think the "system" that they are installing will cover the poor play or athleticism of the guards that they plug in. Atlanta's OL is proof of that. Bunch of no name lunch pail guys and they outshined half of the "true studs" in this league. It'll work for another couple of years until defenses catch up with it. It is the new "trendy" thing.

The biggest problem with GB this year will be the rookie head coach and staff. It'll look a lot like the Detroit game from last year early in the year. They need time to "jell" and they won't do it in 4 preseason games.

By the end of the season, if the "scheme" works they should be playing pretty good football. If the "scheme" doesn't work, we'll know we're in for a few more years of 4-12.

Me thinks your avatar is spilling too much Kool Aide into your brain.

This interior OL group is devoid of talent. I'll drink the Scott Wells Kool Aide and figure he'll be "OK" at C. But I trusted TT last year with O'Dwyer and Klemm. And Freeman and Little. Yes, I know all cheap FA's and he didn't have a ton of $$. But his pickings have failed so far and he hasn't given me reason to blindly put my trust in him when he is ready to rely on competition between a couple total failurer is 2005 (Whittaker and Klemm) and two guys who were not even developed enough to be given a chance to replace those failures (White and Coston) and didn't even dress on gameday.

Even with the best of schemes, you still need players talented enough to execute it.

[retailguy]

Me thinks your avatar is spilling too much Kool Aide into your brain.

This interior OL group is devoid of talent. I'll drink the Scott Wells Kool Aide and figure he'll be "OK" at C. But I trusted TT last year with O'Dwyer and Klemm. And Freeman and Little. Yes, I know all cheap FA's and he didn't have a ton of $$. But his pickings have failed so far and he hasn't given me reason to blindly put my trust in him when he is ready to rely on competition between a couple total failurer is 2005 (Whittaker and Klemm) and two guys who were not even developed enough to be given a chance to replace those failures (White and Coston) and didn't even dress on gameday.

Even with the best of schemes, you still need players talented enough to execute it.

Not, the kool-aid but the cases of Diet Peach Snapple probably don't help.

Bretsky, O'dwyer and Klemm are both immensely talented, they just can't pull very well. Klemm was pursued by NE. They wanted to keep him. O'dwyer is over the hill, granted, but still OK, you just cannot expect him to be able to be athletic at 35. They're good players, but were HORRIBLE choices for the scheme that Sherman ran. That doesn't make them bad football players, just mis-cast.

Coston and White are too raw, but Barry and Klemm (if they move him again) will do fine with the "team blocking" concept. Flanagan would've done well with this system as well, his line calls, and needing to watch "both guards" as he did last year would be unnecessary. Most of the time on early downs, it'll be 5 guys blocking 4. Somebody will almost always be team blocking. If they blitz, Favre will pick them apart. If they don't blitz, one cut, green finds a hole and he's in the secondary.

The great thing about this scheme is that you don't need the cream of the crop. I disagree with you about the talent level, I actually think its fine for what they're doing, but even if you're right and the talent level is depleted, the scheme should help mask that. Where the problems come in, is if the players cannot execute the scheme.

I firmly believe that the OL is critically important, thats one of the reasons that I did like sherman, as he understood that. However, I also know that this scheme depends on task, not on talent.

Bretsky, I think you are worried about the talent level related to last years scheme. I believe if you look at this years scheme, the talent worries really do disappear....