Mad Please keep this tagged not stickied but tag it for two to three years from now when we have over 3k members.
Who thinks TT sucks?
Who thinks he is Ron Wolf in sheeps clothing?
Easy Question.
I say Pack bring back Green Bay's trophy in 2008 with TT at the Helm
Swede: My expertise in this area is extensive. The essential difference between a "battleship" and an "aircraft carrier" is that an aircraft carrier requires five direct hits to sink, but it takes only four direct hits to sink a battleship.
I don't think TT sucks or is Ron Wolf-like. Even though he learned from Wolf, he comes no where near him in terms of aggresive player procurement. Wolf looked under ever rock for players and used all his ammo getting what he needed.
If I had to chose for time capsule sake with only the two choices you list, I'd say TT sucks. A lot will depend on how Rodgers and Hawk turn out.
Just remember that Ron Wolf himself said one of the reasons he retired was that with the full implementation of the salary cap, huge player bonuses and the virtual impossibility of meaningful trades now, it was almost impossible to "fix" your team if things didn't go as you planned. He said it was frustrating to know what you needed and to be powerless to go out and get it. That was a reason he gave for retiring. In short, even Ron Wolf couldn't be Ron Wolf anymore.Originally Posted by esoxx
Just remember that Ron Wolf himself said one of the reasons he retired was that with the full implementation of the salary cap, huge player bonuses and the virtual impossibility of meaningful trades now, it was almost impossible to "fix" your team if things didn't go as you planned. He said it was frustrating to know what you needed and to be powerless to go out and get it. That was a reason he gave for retiring. In short, even Ron Wolf couldn't be Ron Wolf anymore.
It's true Wolf was frustrated with how things evolved with the cap. However, he still would have pulled the trigger on some trades to bring in some vet help if needed, specifically the OL. He made a lot of trades for stop gap help so that his QB wasn't left in the lurch. Getting players like Tootie Robbins, Doug Widdell and others for late round picks. Those type of trades can still be made with modest cap ramifications. TT refuses to make such deals and last year watched Whittacker and Klemm play to disastrous results. I don't like TT's inflexibility in this area.
I can wax intellectual all daysee the pun in that statement?
Alright Ill Ask Him!
The almighty says dont change the subject just answer teh F8cking queation
Tell me if you think its a win in 2008 or a loss...
Swede: My expertise in this area is extensive. The essential difference between a "battleship" and an "aircraft carrier" is that an aircraft carrier requires five direct hits to sink, but it takes only four direct hits to sink a battleship.
I'd say if we were very lucky, the earliest we could pray to be in the Superbowl would be 6 years from this season (treat it like '91/'92 and think of all great moves and longevity we had). Of course we made the playoffs and had a HOF QB in his prime, too. Even so, we always got stood up by Dallas and finally cracked the top echelon of the NFL for a few years.
So, I say GB has a better shot in 2011 and no earlier. But this is the new NFL and who knows, it could be '08 or '09.
I believe that TT was a significant architect of the current Seahawk team. As I understand it, Seahawk fans were rabidly disappointed about how underachieving that team was for many years, until the team finally gelled recently and became a force to be reckoned with in their conference.
I fully expect Green Bay to behave in exactly the same way. The Packers, for the next several years, will fail to behave up to the standards of many of the fans and much of the blame will be heaped upon Thompson. However, eventually after a few years of mediocrity, a few early exits from the playoffs, the team Thompson is building now will become a force to be reckoned with. I can only hope those who are in a hurry to dish out the scorn for Teddy currently will be willing to own up when this team is winning conference championships largely because of the depth and flexibility Thompson builds for the team.
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I agree, problem is though that Seahawks windows appears to be closing relatively quickly. Surely they will be able to compete this year, but next year who knows. Even the average players on good teams demand a lot of money and its tough to maintain.
Most of Wolf's significant moves that everyone wants to compare TT's moves to happened in the early 1990s, before free agency was as it is today, before the salary cap was what it is today, and more importantly before player agents became as smart with demanding bonuses in place of salary and all teams learned to deal effectively with the cap.
What did Wolf do AFTER 1996 to keep the team at the top?
Trades other than straight draft choices for draft choices:
- traded Wayne Simons for a 5th round pick
- traded Steve Bono for a 7th
- traded a 7th for Glyn Milburn
- traded Darious Holland for Vaughn Booker
- traded a sixth for Paul Frase
- gave Joyner to Denver for "past considerations" of which there were none!
- traded Glyn Milburn to Chicago for a 7th round pick
- traded a fourth for Darick Holmes
- traded Mike Morton for a 7th round pick
- traded Rick Mirer for a 6th round pick
- traded Derrick Mayes for a 7th
- traded Craig Newsome for a 5th
- traded a 7th for David Bowens
- traded Jeff Thomason for Kaseem Sinceno
- traded Fred Vinson and a 6th for Ahman Green and a 5th
- traded a 4th for Nate Wayne
- traded Aaron Brooks and Lamont Hall for K.D. Williamsand a third
- traded a 5th for Allen Rossum
- traded Hasselbeck and a 1st for a 1st and a 3rd.
Other than Green and Rossum, not much in all those trades to get excited about, and it can be argued that the Packers got the worst end of several of the trades, including trading away Milburn, Hasselbeck and Brooks.
Since 1996 his FA signings were: Brad Edwards, Harper Le Bel, Qadry Ismail, Eric Curry, Raymont Harris, Sean Landeta, Pat Terrell, Matt Willig, Anthony Davis, Raleigh McKenzie, Mike Morton. Tom Hutton, Russell Maryland, Mike Morton, John Thierry. Some useful players, yes, but I'm not sure TT isn't on the same track with Lee, Pickett, Woodson, Manual, Taylor, Ryan, Rayner, etc.
Face it, Ron Wolf did not do a real effective job keeping the Super Bowl team together, and didn't acquire a whole lot via trades or FA after the Super Bowl either. He did, however, continue to draft fairly effectively.
Oh, I would be happy to say I was wrong, even though I'm not writing TT off yet. Not even close to that.
I'm sure those that feel TT is on the way to building a dominant team and a team capable of winning multiple championships will also be willing to own up that their blind faith in TT was misguided if a failing outcome should occur.
Most of Wolf's significant moves that everyone wants to compare TT's moves to happened in the early 1990s, before free agency was as it is today, before the salary cap was what it is today, and more importantly before player agents became as smart with demanding bonuses in place of salary and all teams learned to deal effectively with the cap.
I would hardly call my example of Robbins and Widdell as "significant moves." I'm not saying TT should go sign a Reggie White b/c that ain't happening anymore. That was a significant move. The moves I'm talking about, the Robbins/Widdell type moves, can still be done w/o any real threat to the salary cap. TT hasn't shown any mindset to give up ANY draft picks for some immediate help when needed. That's all I'm saying. Your examples of Wolf's dealing after 1996 also show he was still plugging away and making deals.
Holmgrens record in Seattle:
9-7
6-10
9-7
7-9
10-6
9-7
13-3
That means going into the 2005 season he was 50-46, and was considered to be underachieving. The team didn't actually start to gel until he was relieved of his GM duties following the 2002 season, when some thought he might be fired completely. Of course the "fire Holmgren" rumors heated up again after the 9-7 season of 2004, which many thought was disappointing after 10-6 the previous year..
I wasn't suggesting that you thought the Widdell and Robbins moves were significant. What I was trying to say is that since 1996 none of his moves were anything more than what TT did this year. He really didn't have a lot to work with last year, but with his signings this year did about the same as Wolf was doing since 1996. I don't think you can say Wolf would have done more with trades and FA, because he really didn't after 1996.
I'm on record with you Tony. TT is most definitely good for the future of this franchise.
Rather than rehash my beliefs about Ted Thompson, here's a link to them from a recent thread.
http://packerrats.com/ratchat/viewto...r=asc&start=40
Since you quoted my response I assumed you were addressing the significant move comment to me. I agree that no real significant moves were done later in Wolf's tenure. My only point here, again, is TT shows no willinginess to give up even a mid-late round pick to acquire immediate help to shore up a glaring hole. Until he is willing to part with even one draft pick, to me he shows he is too rigid in his manuverings. Your list of transactions past '96 show Wolf still trying to make things happen. Trading a 5th for Allen Rossum was a good move, imo. They had a need for a returner and Wolf got it done. TT is either unwilling or afraid to make such an "earth turning" event as parting with a mid-late round pick to help out in deficient areas. Until he shows me he can do that, my opinion of TT is he doesn't use full avenues for player procurement. He needs to use all the tools at his disposal to make this team better. Drafting is a perferred method I understand and agree with, but not the only method.I wasn't suggesting that you thought the Widdell and Robbins moves were significant. What I was trying to say is that since 1996 none of his moves were anything more than what TT did this year. He really didn't have a lot to work with last year, but with his signings this year did about the same as Wolf was doing since 1996. I don't think you can say Wolf would have done more with trades and FA, because he really didn't after 1996.
CRUD I missed some great debate but I could not agree with this more.
""My only point here, again, is TT shows no willinginess to give up even a mid-late round pick to acquire immediate help to shore up a glaring hole. Until he is willing to part with even one draft pick, to me he shows he is too rigid in his manuverings.""
While I think Wolf did above avg, I think his best move was Favre. And the reason for Packer success since 91 is Favre. Unless TT can come up with another one, I don't see him getting to a SB. Now he could change his tactics, but his current one will not work without that HOF QB.
Since 1992 MNGolf
I was a strong TT supporter but the last 2 weeks have shook my faith in his decision making. I am still onboard but he needs to pick up the slack!
One of the reasons I think that the Seahawks are struggling this year is due to some subpar GM work. Not franchising Hutchinson was stupid, and throwing way too much money at Burleson as a retaliatory move was doubly stupid. I have trust that TT won't do anything that stupid.
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