Draft combine. Good or bad? Losing its value?

[Patler]

...Watsons dad has a podcast and regular presence on X. He’s been going on about several rookies injuries and saying the training for the combine causes problems for their health when they play actual football. He didn’t specifically mention his son. But it is possible to consider that, at least partially, he believes his son’s initial injury happened because his combine training made his body more prone to injury.
...

I pulled the above partial quote from another thread, because it mentions an issue that I have thought about since reading an article several years ago. Issues presented in the article:

Most of the better college players now drop out of school as soon as their seasons are done, and spend months and months training specifically to do well on the combine events, not to become better "football athletes".

Especially WRs, DBs and RBs spend countless hours perfecting a sprinter's start so as to do well in the 40 yd time. This has little carryover to football actions, and training for an explosive straight-line sprint may actually be detrimental to the fluid angling cutting and adjusting sprinting a football player does.

Similar concerns were raised about vertical and broad jumps, that the training to do well at the combine does not correlate well to the actions of a football player.

Should the events be modified to more closely correlate to football actions? Maybe, for example, the sprint starting with an untimed 5 yard lead in after a standing start.

With so many players refusing some or all events, others performing at record levels, but not being capable NFL football players; is the combine still of value?

[Joemailman]

I think the biggest problem is so many players skipping agility drills. The combine still has value to the owners because they still get medical information, measurements and interviews.

As for Watson, he missed the last 3 games of his college career with a hamstring. Then he had minor right knee surgery following minicamp in June 2022. Was there a connection between having a hamstring injury late 2021, training for combine and then needing knee surgery in June 2022?

[bobblehead]

I think the combine has value, but some over value it. I remember watching Amon st. Brown at his pro day running routes, catching with his hands. I thought "man that muther is smooth as baby shit". I had no idea his 40 time or his shuttle. Just watched him play football.

What good is a players RAS when they skip the agility events, or the explosion events? I RAS only matters if I can get ALL the testing which most of these guys don't do. Maybe the reason Gutes has been doing his best work on day 3 is because he relies more on tape for his day 3 guys. Justs saying. I think Reed might have the lowest ras of anyone gutes has drafted in the first 3 rounds.

[Guiness]

Patler and Scott Campbell back - I feel like I missed something. Welcome both!

[MadScientist]

It's not the end all and be all of player evaluation, otherwise the draft would not be such a crap shoot. But it still serves a purpose. It gets all the players tested under the same conditions, and for the players, it saves having to go to team visits as much as was done in the past (Ronnie Lott's exhaustion from visiting multiple teams led to a bad workout/interview with the Packers, and the drafting of Scott Campbell instead). Also, we never see the what is often called the most important part of the combine - the interviews. We tend to get overly hung up over the numbers because it is easy to compare numbers. The scouts and GM will use those numbers, but that has to be combined with the interview and the college game tape to get an accurate view of the players.

As for the possibility of prep for the combine causing injury, it's unfortunate, but players who get injured in prep for the combine are probably more likely to get injured training or playing football.

[Scott Campbell]

With so many players refusing some or all events, others performing at record levels, but not being capable NFL football players; is the combine still of value?

The value may have diminished somewhat from the combines heyday when every prospect participated in everything. I think there is still a lot of value there. For teams like the Packers who place greater than average value on RAS socres, the combine might be even more important.

It looks like the Packers also overweight the Senior Bowl week as a draft factor too, though I suspect they might get a bit of extra inside info from Executive Director Jim Nagy as he is a former Packer scout, among scouting for other teams.

[sharpe1027]

My view is that the worth of the combine is inversely proportional to the amount of time players spend training just for the combine. Players skip all or part of the combine more and more, which is showing how they players perceive the value. The value isn't there for them like it once was.

[ThunderDan]

The value may have diminished somewhat from the combines heyday when every prospect participated in everything. I think there is still a lot of value there. For teams like the Packers who place greater than average value on RAS socres, the combine might be even more important.

It looks like the Packers also overweight the Senior Bowl week as a draft factor too, though I suspect they might get a bit of extra inside info from Executive Director Jim Nagy as he is a former Packer scout, among scouting for other teams.

I agree that the Senior Bowl drills might be the most important now a days.

A lot of conferences have 3 or so dominant teams and then 7-11 average teams. The best players in college only play against the other bests 3 or 4 times a year if they don’t make the NCAA playoffs.

The Senior Bowl practices let scouts see the best of the best play head to head. Except for the 10-20 who skip it. It also lets scouts see how players from small schools stack up against top level talent.

[Scott Campbell]

The Senior Bowl practices let scouts see the best of the best play head to head.

I can't remember precisely who said it - might have been Jim Nagy. Jordan Morgan didn't lose a rep all week at the Senior Bowl.

[Bretsky]

Patler and Scott Campbell back - I feel like I missed something. Welcome both!

Now if we could just get that shithead pbmax back here full time ....

[bobblehead]

I can't remember precisely who said it - might have been Jim Nagy. Jordan Morgan didn't lose a rep all week at the Senior Bowl.

It was reported on X (twitter, not apb's favorite porn site). It was accepted as fact. Red and I kinda "duh" that he was Gutes pick after reading that one.

[bobblehead]

Now if we could just get that shithead pbmax back here full time ....

Agreed. Nothing against anyone else who returned as I value all their input, but Pb brought something unique. I butted heads with him at times, had civil discourse other times. I think every poster we lose is missed with the rare exception of guys like gbbrandon I think was his handle. Even then, if he and those like him would branch off from their one dimensional completely ludicrous posting I would even miss those guys. I don't mind a troll as long as its a well diversified troll that stimulates discussion on more than one dead horse. Unlike me, who is totally over the Rasul Douglas trade.

[run pMc]

Combine still has value.

The NFL "network" moved events around for viewers, the event is already a long slog for players. The agility tests are important for scouts, but it seems like they schedule them late, and by then players are either too tired or spooked to run them.

The actual drills players go thru are useful. The medicals are especially important. The measurements are nice because they should be consistent. Pro days can give players small edges or help in the form of friendly rounding.
A lot of RAS scores feel a bit inflated or artificial because prospects aren't doing all the drills. I think they should put an asterisk on those scores personally, but whatever.

That aside, combine is important place to get quick interviews and informal meetings with players, coaches and agents. A lot of deals start to happen there.
It's quite possible that most of the things about the combine that still hold value are those that are barely televised. Just because Marvin Harrison's kid didn't show and Caleb Williams did nothing doesn't mean much. Players skip large parts of it every year.

Tape is more important than RAS.
GB likes scouting Senior Bowl because it's best-vs-best and it's a week of practices with pro coaching. Good way to see how players react to that.

[Fritz]

My view is that the worth of the combine is inversely proportional to the amount of time players spend training just for the combine. Players skip all or part of the combine more and more, which is showing how they players perceive the value. The value isn't there for them like it once was.

I would think the logical answer for the issues Patler brought up would be to develop new drills that are more football-specific, so the players training for the combine would be training for football. You could still get scores so you can compare, but those scores would be based on drills that have been developed for football-specific movement and speed.

[bobblehead]

I would think the logical answer for the issues Patler brought up would be to develop new drills that are more football-specific, so the players training for the combine would be training for football. You could still get scores so you can compare, but those scores would be based on drills that have been developed for football-specific movement and speed.

They do all that in drills at the combine, its just that ESPN would rather show us a fat man running a 40. Most casual fans have no clue what they are watching when Jordan Morgan drop sets and mirrors a guy. We can say "wow he looked quick" but most aren't in any way qualified to notice if he pushed off the wrong foot, dropped the wrong hand, failed to raise a hand, etc. So we get to see a 40. Cuz we can read a stop watch.