What free agent "risk" did Ron Wolf ever take?

[Patler]

The signing of Reggie White by Ron Wolf gets brought up time and time again, including by Brett Favre. Realistically, that was about as low of a "risk" as there ever has been in free agency. Incomparable talent, impeccable character and person, no injury history at all.

Looking at this years free agents, how many of the really talented ones (who were not well past the best days, like Larry Allen) did not have some significant risk factor attached to them? Owens, Johnson, Abraham, Peterson, Arrington, Woodson, Brees all have significant injury or attitude risks. Any runningback with a 5 year history or more is inherently risky because their prime career years are so short.

Only a few truly top level talents seem to be free of character or injury concerns. Hutchinson, Bentley and Vinatieri come to mind. I'm sure there might be a few others, but were they potential difference makers?

Back to my topic question. What real "risk" did Wolf take in Free Agency? Many of the older vets and even some of the younger ones were signed to relatively low, short-term contracts. Many came because of Super Bowl possibilities. ABout the biggest risk that I recall was signing Santana Dotson to a fairly lucrative contract. Dotson had been inconsistent at Tampa Bay, and was not even a full-time starter for them. But he was young, and had shown real potential (sound a little like Pickett?).

Wolf was successful because he found good deals among the free agents. Sean Jones had a few years left and came reasonably priced. Desmond Howard had been given up on by some. Many came for short-term deals and/or cheap deals: Strickland, Raleigh McKenzie, Maryland, Galbreath.

On the other hand, Wolf let many, many very good players leave when their prices got too high: Chuck Cecil, Tootie Robbins, Tony Bennett, Bryce Paup, Ed West, Harry Galbreath, Doug Evans, Craig Hentrich, Eugene Robinson, Aaron Taylor, Adam Timmerman.

Wolf was not the risk taker some try to make him out to be.

[MJZiggy]

Do you think if the next incarnation of Reggie White showed up on the Free Agent market, Ted Thompson would outbid everyone for his services?

[Patler]

Do you think if the next incarnation of Reggie White showed up on the Free Agent market, Ted Thompson would outbid everyone for his services?

Yes. Absolutely. There was hardly a team in the NFL, other than Philadelphia, that wasn't after White. If he cam around again, those that could afford him would try, including GB.

TT is cautious, but he is not cheap. He paid significant money for Franks, Kampman and Pickett. I find it humorous that so many fans continue to insist that TT is cheap, yet criticize him for overpaying almost everytime he completes a significant signing. Most of the boards have tended toward opinions that he overpaid for Franks, overpaid for Kampman, and probably paid too much for Pickett but it didn't matter because of all the cap space GB has. Some have even suggested that the money for Manuel was too much.

My opinion is that TT is willing to spend the money for players he wants.

[Tarlam!]

Do you think if the next incarnation of Reggie White showed up on the Free Agent market, Ted Thompson would outbid everyone for his services?

Y'know, TT is really risk-avertive. Shamrock argues there was no risk in the White deal, and I am inclined to follow his argument.

My conclusion is then, yes, TT would outbid everyone for a risk free deal such as the example.

[gureski]

Off the top of my head, Wolf took a free agent shot at Seth Joyner and that didn't work out.

You mention Dotson and that did work out.

Sean Jones and Reggie White are well known free agent acquisitions.

I'm concentrating on bigger name players. Guys like Ron Cox and Strickland don't have much risk as free agents.

Wolf did try to get A.Rison and eventually...now that I think of it, signed Rison.

Wolf tried to sign LB Bryan Cox several times but struck out as Cox picked other teams.

Wolf wasn't ashamed to toss his name in the hat when a free agent was around. He didn't get them all but he had his chips on the table more times then not and wasnt' afraid of guys like Cox and Rison when it came to bidding. Again, he didn't win them but he tried.

Desmond Howard was a free agent acquisition too.

[Patler]

Do you think if the next incarnation of Reggie White showed up on the Free Agent market, Ted Thompson would outbid everyone for his services?

Also keep in mind that Ron Wolf was willing to make a blockbuster offer to Reggie White, and just two years later would not pay enough to keep Bryce Paup, who really wanted to stay in GB. Paup was already a difference maker on defense, went on to several Pro-Bowl and All-Pro seasons, and was Defensive Player of the Year shortly after leaving.

You could argue that Wolf was too "cheap" to keep Paup, Craig Hentrich, Adam Timmerman and many others.

[Patler]

Gureski; my point was that even apart from White many of the well-known players that Wolf signed came in low-risk deals. Many came because they wanted a chance for a Super Bowl. As I recall, Seth Joyner came extremely cheap, so that really was not a risk.

[gureski]

Gureski; my point was that even apart from White many of the well-known players that Wolf signed came in low-risk deals. Many came because they wanted a chance for a Super Bowl. As I recall, Seth Joyner came extremely cheap, so that really was not a risk.

In order to paint Wolf in this picture you have to offer up names of guys he passed by that he should've went after. Example: Many say Thompson should've gone after Witherspoon. What players do you think Wolf showed any weakness by not going after?

I will say to you that Wolf didn't need to go after tons of high risk free agents because he drafted so damn well that most all the spots were covered in-house!

The only real weak spot on the team was the LB corps and specifically MLB where Wolf tried at least twice to lure Bryan Cox and Hardy Nickerson (in their prime) to G.B. and other MLB's that were on the market. He just couldn't land one. Other then that, Wolf needed a safety and went out and traded for one. He covered himself at nearly all positions by his sound GM moves early on. Hell, we're still playing with a core of Wolf players right now. That's how good his drafts were. Because of that fact, it's hard for you to say that Wolf didn't take risks in free agency.....he didn't have many opportunities to take risks because he did the rest of his job so well. You can't judge his ability to take risks on the number of guys he signed to 'risk' deals because he didn't have many opportunities/need to do that. It's a skewed stat. Who signs a high risk high money player just to do it? (see D.Snyder in Wash)

All you can say is that Wolf wasn't afraid to toss his name into the bidding wars for high priced players like A.Rison, H.Nickerson, B.Cox, R.White and more. He didn't win them all but he was at the table, chips in hand...trying. He took plenty of risks. B.Favre for a 1st rounder was a risk. Keith Jackson via trade after he said he wouldn't play in G.B. was a risk. Dotson and G.Brown were risks. Wolf wasn't a wuss by any measure.

[KYPack]

Do you think if the next incarnation of Reggie White showed up on the Free Agent market, Ted Thompson would outbid everyone for his services?

Also keep in mind that Ron Wolf was willing to make a blockbuster offer to Reggie White, and just two years later would not pay enough to keep Bryce Paup, who really wanted to stay in GB. Paup was already a difference maker on defense, went on to several Pro-Bowl and All-Pro seasons, and was Defensive Player of the Year shortly after leaving.

You could argue that Wolf was too "cheap" to keep Paup, Craig Hentrich, Adam Timmerman and many others.

Go to the head of the class, Shamrock. My sentiments exactly. Those are the biggest "puzzles" of the Wolf regime. By today's standards it was peanuts to keep those 3. Dedicated guys who busted their ass & had "Packer" written all over 'em. Why in the hell Wolf didn't sign 'em is beyond me. I've always felt Wolf tried to be a hard-ass like his mentor, Al Davis.

There was one "risk" guy that I remember. Andre Rison had ruined a couple locker rooms and his old lady burned down a house when Wolf signed him in '96.

He transformed into a team leader and locker room dude & scored the first touchdown in the Super Bowl. Wolf wouldn't have done it if Freeman hadn't broken his arm, but it was chancey at the time.

[Patler]

KY;
I would argue that even Andre Rison was not a risk. He was brought in for the last 5 games out of necessity. If he became a problem he would have been shown the door. GB would have been out only the salary he was paid for the games he was there. For all Rison did those last five games and the playoffs, he was not brought back the following season.

[Tarlam!]

Rison is a great case example of why owners shell out millions to get T.O. or Moss. That's also why we should go after Arrington. I the M3 would be seat as his coach...

[Patler]

Gureski; you kind of make my point for me. Wolf was never willing to offer a big enough contract to get Nickerson or Cox to GB, even though middle linebacker was a position of need. Sure he threw his hat in the ring, just like TT did for Vinatieri, Woodson and now Arrington.

For that matter, if memory serves me correctly, I think Wolf made an effort for Seth Joyner when he left Philly to go to Arizona. But again Wolf would not pay enough to get him, and only signed him 3 years later when he came cheaply.

My point is simply that Wolf was more cautious than some would now like to believe, as evidenced by his unwillingnes to pay Nickerson, Cox, Timmerman, Hentrich, Cecil, Paup, Aaron Taylor and many, many others.

Except for White, I think Wolf lost better talent in free agency than he signed. However, he drafted well and signed many less talented role players to fill the gaps.

[KYPack]

KY;
I would argue that even Andre Rison was not a risk. He was brought in for the last 5 games out of necessity. If he became a problem he would have been shown the door. GB would have been out only the salary he was paid for the games he was there. For all Rison did those last five games and the playoffs, he was not brought back the following season.

Yeah know, that's the trouble with this board. I agree with 99% of the posters. The only poster that is a moron is Tank, he is kind of the "designated idiot" on here.

There wasn't a lot of risk in the Rison deal financially. But every time you bring a player into the locker room, there is a risk of disrupting the ballclub. I can flat garauntee you that Ron Wolf had any number of serious discussions with Dre before agreeing to sign him.

Not a ton of risk, but it still involved chancing the teams ability to get to the Super Bowl. Wolf would gamble on some guys if he thought it would help his team. He added to the ballclub thru both avenues, the draft and FA. Thompson has been a washout in his FA signings. He needs to up the talent on this team thru every available means. If he fails to do that, we are staring mediocrity in the face

[Patler]

There wasn't a lot of risk in the Rison deal financially. But every time you bring a player into the locker room, there is a risk of disrupting the ballclub.

Thompson has been a washout in his FA signings. He needs to up the talent on this team thru every available means. If he fails to do that, we are staring mediocrity in the face

I suspect Rison was on a very short leash, and at the first hint of trouble he would have been released. He would not have been given the chance to be a disruption.

TT has had successes in FA, too. Gado was a good signing. I thinkDonald Lee was a good signing. The only one that has seemingly flopped is Adrian Klemm, who doesn't seem to be more than a backup tackle. I'm not sure what people expected from Freeman, Little and O'Dwyer. In reallity these were simply guys who were offered "tryouts" with GB. Each was signed to basically a veterans minimum contract. Maybe the biggest fault is TT should have brought in even more guards than he did.

[Tarlam!]

Klemm is a solid tackle, that struggled in the Sherman "pull" system for guards, from all accounts I have read. This was clearly the wrong player at the wrong postition in the wrong system.

He does possess work ethic and has a history of winning SBs. That's a boon right there. He's able to conjure images to feed the imagination of the youngens. I liked his coming to GB, I wish Sherm's system was not so prohibitive to his success.

I firmly believe, he will be a remarkly improved player in the "zone" as will Barry by playing his true position at last.

[Patler]

Klemm is a solid tackle, that struggled in the Sherman "pull" system for guards, from all accounts I have read. This was clearly the wrong player at the wrong postition in the wrong system.

He does possess work ethic and has a history of winning SBs. That's a boon right there. He's able to conjure images to feed the imagination of the youngens. I liked his coming to GB, I wish Sherm's system was not so prohibitive to his success.

I firmly believe, he will be a remarkly improved player in the "zone" as will Barry by playing his true position at last.

I thought Klemm might work out as a guard this year, but I have read two different statements from the coaches that seem to indicate he will be kept at tackle. However, I do think he is valuable as Clifton's backup. That is not an insignificant role, just not the one he was expected to fill.

[Tarlam!]

Yah, well, I like having versatile linemen. The simpler the system, the more potential for versatility.

I am happy to have Klemm. He's a good character guy. He works hard. He is a little slow to improve. I am a little concerned about his motivation to come to GB. I think he perceives this as an experiment, but we were counting on him to achieve.

Still, I am comfortable with him on the roster.

[GBRulz]

Timmerman is one guy that I'll never understand why Wolf let get away. I mean he clearly wanted to stay in GB, yet he had indicated that the Packers never even attempted to keep him.

Wolf's specialty was bringing in guys who could fill holes when we needed. Hard to compare his situation to TT, where a hole here and there was much easier than the damn sinkhole TT has. But...ya gotta start somewhere and TT has the cash so let's pony it up already!!

[HarveyWallbangers]

I don't know. I find this argument a little shady. It's easy to say after the fact that guys like Andre Rison and Keith Jackson weren't risks, but they could have blown team chemistry. To see what Ron Wolf was about you have to also look at some of the trades he made. Trading a first for Favre was a risk. Trading a 2nd round pick at CB who some thought I had good potential for a RB that not many people wanted, Ahman Green, was a risk. He paid pretty good money to a DT who disappointed in Tampa Bay after a strong rookie year, Santana Dotson.

[gureski]

Gureski; you kind of make my point for me. Wolf was never willing to offer a big enough contract to get Nickerson or Cox to GB, even though middle linebacker was a position of need. Sure he threw his hat in the ring, just like TT did for Vinatieri, Woodson and now Arrington.

For that matter, if memory serves me correctly, I think Wolf made an effort for Seth Joyner when he left Philly to go to Arizona. But again Wolf would not pay enough to get him, and only signed him 3 years later when he came cheaply.

My point is simply that Wolf was more cautious than some would now like to believe, as evidenced by his unwillingnes to pay Nickerson, Cox, Timmerman, Hentrich, Cecil, Paup, Aaron Taylor and many, many others.

Except for White, I think Wolf lost better talent in free agency than he signed. However, he drafted well and signed many less talented role players to fill the gaps.

I disagree. The contracts Wolf was offerring some of the players you mention would've made them the highest paid players at their positions in the NFL. You're not going to get every player you want. Nickerson, for example, decided to stay in T.B. rather then coming to G.B.. It wasnt' because Wolf didn't offer enough money. It's not like Wolf knew what the other teams were offerring and didn't top them. He made a huge offer and the other teams topped that. I think he thought he had Rison until Cleveland jumped in and stole him away.

I wouldn't say he was cautious as much as I'd say he was responsible. He didn't throw money away. Cautious is Ted Thompson. Wolf wasn't afraid to spend. He just refused to spend stupidly. The only signing you can really stick to him as a overly cautious approach was the Hentrich fiasco. Wolf just flat out refused to be the first GM to pay a punter 1 million dollars a year. He did that on principle and he said as much when it went down. He also later admitted that being one of his biggest mistakes as GM.

Paup was not an every down player for the Packers when he left for Buffalo. The Packers played a 4-3 and Paup was a classic 3-4 LB. Buffalo ran a 3-4 and could use him every down where-as the Packers could only use him primarily as a pass rushing specialist. He was a great player but for what the role the Packers were going to use him in.....he wanted too much money. That's not being cheap. That's being smart. Paup had more value to 3-4 team and the Packers were not going to change their defensive scheme to keep Paup.

I think the major dispute we have is over your terminology of stating Wolf was not 'willing' to pay for the players you listed. I think in many cases he WAS willing but didn't get the player and in other instances he had guys ready to take over that were future pro-bowlers so why pay contracts that made those players amongst the highest paid in the league at their position when you have future all-pro's ready to take over? Rivera took over for Taylor. Whale took over for Timmerman. Cecil became the highest paid safety in the league while George Teague took over his spot and went on to have a better overall career then Teague. Time after time...except for the Hentrich move....Wolf did the right thing. When he let guys go it wasn't because he didn't want to pay them.....it was because he had guys ready and waiting to play and didn't need to pay the players he had! He was able to divert the money he would've spent on those players to other spots on the team...like signing Desmond Howard who turned into the Superbowl MVP... He did that because he was so good at drafting and trades that he always had players ready to start on the bench so he never needed to break the bank on guys like Timmerman and Taylor.

So, again...I don't think it's so much that Wolf was unwilling as it was that he didn't need to offer high risk, high dollar deals to guys. It makes no sense to go down those roads if you don't have to. By the many high profile players that Wolf did go after it is obvious that he wasn't afraid to take shots at things. It's not his fault guys chose other offers over his. It's not like they were all in the same room and Wolf closed his notebook and walked out while others kept bidding. He made very attractive offers and the players chose to go elsewhere. The point is he did try and did put big money on the table. It wasn't a token try.