The Inside Story of How the NFL's Plan for Its 1st Openly Gay Player Fell Apart

[MJZiggy]

What needed to happen is that several gay players, as they retired, needed to come out. After that happens a few times, people will start giving that "so what" response and then when someone does come out before he's ready to retire, folks will say that the NFL has had gay players for years. "So what?"

[woodbuck27]

What needed to happen is that several gay players, as they retired, needed to come out. After that happens a few times, people will start giving that "so what" response and then when someone does come out before he's ready to retire, folks will say that the NFL has had gay players for years. "So what?"

You place conditions on this issue based in a timeline!?

Come on MJ... Why are you disappointing me?

How long in your view MJZiggy must we for what has already been won?

You need some help here MJ. Your not getting it.

I'm always here to help.

What needed to happen in terms of your American Constitution:

Is that any gay NFL players shouldn't ever have any problem or issue (with NFL Teams) and with coming out or declaring themselves openly as being sexually Gay.

Why? Because today that shouldn't be an issue. The fact it is defines an American society that needs to be more open minded and intelligent in it's response to 'every person's hard fought Freedom Of Rights'.

[MJZiggy]

You place conditions on this issue based in a timeline. Come on MJ...you disappoint me. How long in your view must we for what has already been won?

No your not getting it MJ.

What needed to happen in terms of your American Constitution:

Is that any gay NFL players shouldn't ever have any problem or issue (with NFL Teams) and with coming out or declaring themselves openly as being sexually Gay.

Why? Because today that shouldn't be an issue. The fact it is defines an American society that needs to be more open minded and intelligent in it's response to 'every person's hard fought Freedom Of Rights'.

Notice the use of the past tense, Woodbuck. Today it shouldn't be an issue. Problem is that if your article is to be believed, right or wrong, it still is.

[woodbuck27]

Notice the use of the past tense, Woodbuck. Today it shouldn't be an issue. Problem is that if your article is to be believed, right or wrong, it still is.

Here is your statement MJZiggy:

" What needed to happen is that several gay players, as they retired, needed to come out. After that happens a few times, people will start giving that "so what" response and then when someone does come out before he's ready to retire, folks will say that the NFL has had gay players for years. "So what?" .. " MJZiggy


Taking this portion of your statement out of the whole:

" What needed to happen is that several gay players, as they retired, needed to come out..... "

I made my repost to you and I stand now on my broader and clearly more accurate view than yours.

You'll get it...when? After you retire?

[MJZiggy]

Here is your statement MJZiggy:

" What needed to happen is that several gay players, as they retired, needed to come out. After that happens a few times, people will start giving that "so what" response and then when someone does come out before he's ready to retire, folks will say that the NFL has had gay players for years. "So what?" .. " MJZiggy


Taking this portion of your statement out of the whole:

" What needed to happen is that several gay players, as they retired, needed to come out..... "

I made my repost to you and I stand now on my broader and clearly more accurate view than yours.

You'll get it...when? After you retire?

Needed. Past tense. Like 10 years ago. If that had happened, there would be no discussion about it now. It would be a non-issue. Quit being so defensive.

[gbgary]

You place conditions on this issue based in a timeline!?

Come on MJ... Why are you disappointing me?

How long in your view MJZiggy must we for what has already been won?

You need some help here MJ. Ygour not getting it.

I'm always here to help.

What needed to happen in terms of your American Constitution:

Is that any gay NFL players shouldn't ever have any problem or issue (with NFL Teams) and with coming out or declaring themselves openly as being sexually Gay.

Why? Because today that shouldn't be an issue. The fact it is defines an American society that needs to be more open minded and intelligent in it's response to 'every person's hard fought Freedom Of Rights'.

don't bring nationalism into it. how many openly gay hockey players are there in canada or anywhere else? it's a human prejudice issue, a male team-sports issue...not an american issue.

[woodbuck27]

don't bring nationalism into it. how many openly gay hockey players are there in canada or anywhere else? it's a human prejudice issue...not an american issue.

Canadian hockey players and Aaron Rodgers and NFL players and gay or not.

Make a better attempt et getting focused, member.

As difficult as that may be for you gbgary. At least attempt some clear focus and not some ridiculous diversion to Canada Vs the USA (America) and OUR way Vs YOURS.

Such is to entertain a debate with me where 'YOU' gbgary would be severely tested. You would need a great deal of help to even be marginally close to making some stupid point and that. Hopefully the membership is more as a whole intelligent.

I do NOT bring Nationalism into my post. I refer to your American Constitution. I do so with all respect and if you have an issue with that **FUCK OFF please ! Thank You.

**I never go there with any member here but in your case and your debased way that's clearly appropriate and likely the 'only' thing you might understand. That's generally the 'only' demand your kind understands.

[gbgary]

bla bla bla

you said "...american society needs to..." and I infered it's world-wide male-sports issue not solely an american one. what things should be and what they are are miles apart. we agree things should be different and such things shouldn't matter but sadly that isn't the case. you've gone off the deep end with your personal
attack but that's up to you. you have a happy new year.

[Patler]

don't bring nationalism into it. how many openly gay hockey players are there in canada or anywhere else? it's a human prejudice issue, a male team-sports issue...not an american issue.

Not a lot of openly gay players, but the NHL and hockey generally have made a commitment to acceptance of gay players. Read about Brenden Burke, and the work of NHL executives including his father and brother backing the "You Can Play Project". Many top NHL players have gotten behind the project with videos and such.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...143441932.html


There is a strong effort in the NHL and both USA Hockey and Hockey Canada to change the culture on the ice and in the locker rooms to make it accepting of gay players, much of it being the work of the Burkes.

Interesting to contrast that with the inaction of the NFL, even though Paul Tagliabue has a son who has been openly gay since before his father became Commissioner. While Paul Tagliabue has been very active in gay rights after retiring from the NFL, he didn't push the issue while commissioner, as far as I know.

[gbgary]

Not a lot of openly gay players, but the NHL and hockey generally have made a commitment to acceptance of gay players. Read about Brenden Burke, and the work of NHL executives including his father and brother backing the "You Can Play Project". Many top NHL players have gotten behind the project with videos and such.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...143441932.html


There is a strong effort in the NHL and both USA Hockey and Hockey Canada to change the culture on the ice and in the locker rooms to make it accepting of gay players, much of it being the work of the Burkes.

Interesting to contrast that with the inaction of the NFL, even though Paul Tagliabue has a son who has been openly gay since before his father became Commissioner. While Paul Tagliabue has been very active in gay rights after retiring from the NFL, he didn't push the issue while commissioner, as far as I know.

I don't track outed athletes but they are very few and far between in male team sports be it football, soccer, cricket, hockey, baseball, rugby, or whatever. any progress these institutions make is commendable and over due. I just don't see much happening for several years as these athletes keep quiet for whatever reason be it fear of personal, financial, or institutional backlash.

[SkinBasket]

What needed to happen is that several gay players, as they retired, needed to come out.

Why did they "need" to come out? Can't they just be gay without being an activist about it or telling a world that shouldn't, and for the most part doesn't, care anymore? Who are the people asking these questions? Usually they aren't people trying to intimidate or mock. The people desperately trying to "out" queers are the same who are incessantly pushing the gay agenda that's given this nation fag fatigue.

As others have already mentioned, the fans, the players, and the front offices don't want to hear about it. They want to watch, play, and manage football without having another sociopolitical issue forced on them turning the league into another terrible, soul-destroying season of Glee. People are tired of being told that if you don't actively support every aspect of the gay agenda, from marriage to equality in sports, to floats in parades and naked assholes dancing in the streets reinforcing all the negative stereotypes about them, to fake hate crimes meant to raise "social awareness," you're homophobic or otherwise hate the gays.

So until we start demanding that every player with something minorital about him reveal himself, maybe people should stop demanding that the fags do the same and just leave them the fuck alone to make their own decisions.

[woodbuck27]

Why did they "need" to come out? Can't they just be gay without being an activist about it or telling a world that shouldn't, and for the most part doesn't, care anymore? Who are the people asking these questions? Usually they aren't people trying to intimidate or mock. The people desperately trying to "out" queers are the same who are incessantly pushing the gay agenda that's given this nation fag fatigue.

As others have already mentioned, the fans, the players, and the front offices don't want to hear about it. They want to watch, play, and manage football without having another sociopolitical issue forced on them turning the league into another terrible, soul-destroying season of Glee. People are tired of being told that if you don't actively support every aspect of the gay agenda, from marriage to equality in sports, to floats in parades and naked assholes dancing in the streets reinforcing all the negative stereotypes about them, to fake hate crimes meant to raise "social awareness," you're homophobic or otherwise hate the gays.

So until we start demanding that every player with something minorital about him reveal himself, maybe people should stop demanding that the fags do the same and just leave them the fuck alone to make their own decisions.

Yes I agree but believe that's another kettle of fish issue.

[pbmax]

Why did they "need" to come out? Can't they just be gay without being an activist about it or telling a world that shouldn't, and for the most part doesn't, care anymore?

Because it still carries a stigma whether people want to hear about it or not. The fact that some posters on this board say its fine and we don't need to hear anymore is not proof positive that acceptance has been achieved.

Patler just mentioned that the Hockey Associations are working toward making on out hockey player possible, if nothing else need be done, exactly what are they doing? There are folks inside and outside the NFL trying to make this possible, exactly what barriers are they working to take down if there are none?

I am pretty sure there is a cornerback for the 49ers (or was, the comment was last year) who recently informed us he wasn't down with the gays. He was asked about having a gay teammate. Now its possible he simply doesn't agree with the fashion trends, but its also possible he is really not happy about having a gay teammate. If its one guy, then there isn't much of a problem. But since no one wants to talk about it, how much support is there for his position on his team and in that org?

Could be very little, could be a lot. Hard to know if no one talks about it. These conversations need to happen.

If one athlete does come out, these conversations then have to happen. Teams will have meetings, reporters will have leverage to get statements from teams. Up to that point, it possible to imagine all is well for ANY position.

Is it ideal? Not really, because it will get confused with celebrity culture and coverage. Conclusions will be drawn about the whole from one part. But it still beats silence.

I think most gay players (most gay people probably) agree with you, that they would prefer just to be. But from the perspective of a gay player, I don't think that means all is well.

[mraynrand]

Because it still carries a stigma whether people want to hear about it or not. The fact that some posters on this board say its fine and we don't need to hear anymore is not proof positive that acceptance has been achieved.

That's the issue: can and will acceptance be achieved. I don't think so - not any time soon. That's the rub, so to speak. The gay activists don't want tolerance, they want acceptance and celebration. People who think gay behavior is a sin, I think, mostly are OK with tolerance, but don't want to be forced into acceptance. It used to be far worse for gays, in that they'd get beat up and shunned if discovered. The acceptance crowd is fighting today's battle through that lens, and is using that history, and the great push through the social institutions to gain total accommodation. Given the success they've had, I see no reason for them not to keep pushing. The goal is to turn those who think gay behavior is sinful into the pariahs that gays used to be. And the NFL would be a grand victory considering how anti-gay it's been, or at least is perceived to be.

[woodbuck27]

That's the issue: can and will acceptance be achieved. I don't think so - not any time soon. That's the rub, so to speak. The gay activists don't want tolerance, they want acceptance and celebration. People who think gay behavior is a sin, I think, mostly are OK with tolerance, but don't want to be forced into acceptance. It used to be far worse for gays, in that they'd get beat up and shunned if discovered. The acceptance crowd is fighting today's battle through that lens, and is using that history, and the great push through the social institutions to gain total accommodation. Given the success they've had, I see no reason for them not to keep pushing. The goal is to turn those who think gay behavior is sinful into the pariahs that gays used to be. And the NFL would be a grand victory considering how anti-gay it's been, or at least is perceived to be.

So much goes away if NFL teams simply employ a man/ woman irregardless of his/her sexuality.

It's just too simple that way.

[pbmax]

That's the issue: can and will acceptance be achieved. I don't think so - not any time soon. That's the rub, so to speak. The gay activists don't want tolerance, they want acceptance and celebration. People who think gay behavior is a sin, I think, mostly are OK with tolerance, but don't want to be forced into acceptance. It used to be far worse for gays, in that they'd get beat up and shunned if discovered. The acceptance crowd is fighting today's battle through that lens, and is using that history, and the great push through the social institutions to gain total accommodation. Given the success they've had, I see no reason for them not to keep pushing. The goal is to turn those who think gay behavior is sinful into the pariahs that gays used to be. And the NFL would be a grand victory considering how anti-gay it's been, or at least is perceived to be.

We are not far removed from violence even if today it is far more singular.

I understand objections to acceptance based on sin, but Godly folk work with sinners all the time in peace. This is not quite there yet, but I do agree, no matter the public optics, it will take more time.

[Harlan Huckleby]

That's the issue: can and will acceptance be achieved. I don't think so - not any time soon. That's the rub, so to speak. The gay activists don't want tolerance, they want acceptance and celebration.

Of course gays want full acceptance. It's directly analogous to interracial couples. Interracial couples used to be shunned, often condemned on religious grounds. Their kids were picked on.
After a few decades of hashing over the issue, most people have come around to accepting interracial families. Identical process has happened with gays, at a more accelerated pace.

There are winners and losers in all social changes. People who don't accept gays are fading away, just like the people who didn't want to let go of slavery, or people who were uncomfortable with women in the military.

The tipping point on gay acceptance passed about 5 years ago, it's a done deal.

Lombardi was a pioneer in acceptance of both gays and interracial couples
http://www.acmepackingcompany.com/20...e-gay-athletes

[SkinBasket]

Because it still carries a stigma whether people want to hear about it or not. The fact that some posters on this board say its fine and we don't need to hear anymore is not proof positive that acceptance has been achieved.

So we should use sports to experiment with social engineering? Correction: we should pressure gay athletes to divulge their sexual behavior to the world to force a conversation about the place said sexual behavior has in sports - which just about everyone can agree on is "none?" Like gay "marriage" activists, you believe a public spectacle would invoke sympathy for people who want to be treated unspectacularly. Forced acknowledgement of what makes them different while demanding that same difference not be reason for attention.

Why don't we pressure gay teachers, policemen, soldiers, or to come out? Or straight interior designers? Why not pressure conservative actors to come out? After all, if these conversations involving intolerance "need" to happen, why focus solely on gay athletes? Are they, or the apathetic intolerance involved, more important than any other? Or is it simply "important" because it's another goal of an sociopolitical agenda that enjoys the support of a majority of the American media?

If the goal is for a man's sexuality to have no place in sports, then why focus on a man's sexuality in sports? What possible benefit is there from this conversation specifically that hasn't already been discussed and beaten to death and back in a broader setting? Who's mind is going to change, honestly, that hasn't already in a society that has been quite literally drenched past saturation with pro-homosexual messaging?

[pbmax]

So we should use sports to experiment with social engineering? Correction: we should pressure gay athletes to divulge their sexual behavior to the world to force a conversation about the place said sexual behavior has in sports - which just about everyone can agree on is "none?" Like gay "marriage" activists, you believe a public spectacle would invoke sympathy for people who want to be treated unspectacularly. Forced acknowledgement of what makes them different while demanding that same difference not be reason for attention.

Divulge sexual behavior? That is a strange way to look at it. Do you think of Jordy Nelson having sexual relations with his wife every time one of those ads for Wisconsin Tourism runs on TV?

If peoples opinions on sexual orientation were simply subjected to entropy, then naturally the system would return to a well dispersed state of people caring about what they want to care about. But as long as there are clinics taking money to pray away the gay, then I think there is energy in the system looking to organize the parts.

And if that is the case, then waiting for entropy to return is going to be a long time coming. There needs to be energy spent in resistance to return to balance.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Why did they "need" to come out? Can't they just be gay without being an activist about it or telling a world that shouldn't, and for the most part doesn't, care anymore?

It's important for gay people to come out of closet, it reduces stigmatization. Obviously people still do care very much about athletes being gay, otherwise more gay athletes would be out of closet.