You know how to hurt someone B. Also, now please understand the awesome power of Daryn Colledge.Originally Posted by Bretsky
You know how to hurt someone B. Also, now please understand the awesome power of Daryn Colledge.
Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.
A better comparison to last year would be the frequency of the run game. What percentage of plays were runs vs. passes last year. How about this year?
Or even better, how often are we able to use play action this year compared to last?
Losing Grant was teh bigger loss because without a run game half the playbook is irrelevant since you can't use it anyway. Finley's strength was attacking the safeties. He'd be a real asset Sunday against the Bears Tampa-2 defense. He's a bigger playmaker than Grant, but not quite as important to the efficiency of our offense. We'd like to be a passing team, but that's not as easy without a complementary run game. A steady run game is the catalyst for this offense. Losing Grant is the far bigger blow IMO.
Chuck Norris doesn't cut his grass, he just stares at it and dares it to grow
How about comparing the number of sacks - doesn't the run game prevent sacks? Finley was being game-planned for - a guy dedicated over the top and underneath help. he was a mismatch for both LBs, Corners, and Safeties. If Grant were some world-beater running back, I'd say losing him was a big deal. If the Packers had an O-line that could efficiently run block, I'd also say it was a big deal. Look who the Patriots trot out there to run the ball and how often they run it. Just enough to keep the defense honest. Also, with Finley in there, the Packers would likely have
huge gaps in the run game simple due to Finley being able to clear out a LB and Safety. I'd much rather have Finley back than Grant. Much more dangerous weapon, teams have to gameplan, he alters the entire defensive scheme. All that, versus Grant, who can run downhill a little bit. If you notice in 2008, with Grant, but not an up-to-speed Finley, a lot of teams were only playing 7 in the box, defending the pass, daring the Packers to run. Not as though they feared the running of Grant, eh?
You're looking at individual talent, I'm looking at team impact. MM has already said that over half of his playbook is reliant on a running game. We haven't had a running game since Grant went down. It's not Grant's individual talent that's the huge loss but rather the benefits of a consistent threat in the run game. Suffice it to say, half of MM's playbook has been useless all season. I doubt the loss of Finley had a similar impact. As I said, Finley is certainly the better playmaker. He's a mismatch wherever he lines up because he's a superior athelete and there's no argument he's a guy you have to gameplan around. But his being in the game doesn't improve our offense as a whole the way a consistent run game does, and his loss hasn't restricted the offense nearly as much as the loss of Grant has.
Chuck Norris doesn't cut his grass, he just stares at it and dares it to grow
They both hurt no doubt. I'm of the opinion that the loss of Finley hurts more. Although the pass attack has rebounded after a few games of adjustment quite nicely - better than I feared. Jennings has really stepped up. Losing Finley also hurts the running game though, as backers and safeties would have to pay a lot more attention to him when he's in there, which can be just enough to create seams when they are not as aggressive in run support.
I did. A certain NO game a few years ago comes to mind where Kamp got 2 sacks in the first quarter and the team had to keep a TE in to double him the entire rest of the game. He was constantly double teamed.
I don't hold Grudges. It's counterproductive.
He is outstanding. So was Kampman. This season I have seen many tackles stonewall Mathews. I never saw that with Kampman. They were different players. Clay is more explosive for sure. Kamp had a variety of moves and would NEVER get stonewalled. Even when a guy controlled him he would collapse the pocket (which was the scheme he played in. 15.5 sacks given that scheme was a monster year.)
As for passes defended and such, again, product of the scheme. Mathews benefits from moving around, surprising teams and keeping them off balance. Kamp lined up across from a tackle and beat him with no surprises. He also never had BJ Raji flushing the QB to him.
Don't get me wrong, when its said and done, I think Mathews will definatly have a better career. But to say Kamp was never anywhere near him after about 12 games as a starter....that is almost as foolish as proclaiming Ryan Grant as superior to Dickerson after 8 games.
PS...still waiting for Clay to get 16 sacks. He was spotted 9 this season. Again, not disputing your last point "the kid is outstanding." Just saying that getting all goofy over a player after a very short run is often wrong, and never smart.
I don't hold Grudges. It's counterproductive.
It was easy to do that early in the season since we would line up in shotgun, empty backfield, half the time.
I don't hold Grudges. It's counterproductive.
Except that I wasn't referring to empty backfield situations, since that makes no sense as the defense would know a run from a RB wasn't possible.
This proves my point. The Saints didn't game plan at all for Kampman. They adjusted on the fly. I've observed multiple games where Matthews has clearly been double-teamed and schemed against from the first play on. Not so for Kampman.
I appreciate Gunakor's perspective (better play-action would certainly help the O) but I'm mostly on this side of the argument. Interesting 'chicken and egg' question with pass setting up run setting up pass controversy at the heart of it... To me though, the key will always be great players forcing other teams into situations they don't want. Having to game plan for Finley or Matthews will free up other to make plays...
YOur nitpicking. Teams certainly did gameplan for kampman in passing sets. To assert otherwise is crazy. That NO game came early in the 15.5 sack season if I recall, and teams started gameplanning for him the rest of the season.
I don't hold Grudges. It's counterproductive.
I didn't see much of that. But, if I'm really bored, I'll go back and look to see how often he was doubled, chipped, etc. I still see Matthews as having far more impact than Kampman. I guess we'll just have to disagree.
I disagree with this. Of course early speculation is often wrong, but that's what GM's are paid to do and I appreciate people stepping out with their opinions. Being wrong about predicting the future based on what you see and your experiences is far different than being dumb.
I suspect Waldo would stand by his assertions. You can't deny that Matthews has absolutely elite skills and the potential to be nothing short of the best ever at his position. That's according to Kevin Greene, one of the all-time greats. Not sure you could ever say that about Kampman, who I'm a big fan of...
He can feel free to stand by his Mathews assertion, and will likely be right. He can stand by his dissing of Kampman and will never ever be right. When its all over Mathews will likely have a great career. A lot of things have kept kampman from maxing out his career, but to basically say he is a JAG the way Waldo did (many times) was just foolish.
Remember, Waldo often backed his arguments with brilliance like saying LT and Reggie White always lined up against the left tackle and beat the best....then had to backpeddle a lot. I'm just a person who believes in letting the jury decide before asserting things not yet proven, then basically being dismissive to anyone who disagrees.
I have said that I think Finley is as dominant as Gates when healthy. I would never be foolish enough to say he is as good of a player as Gates...not yet anyway. To say that Mathews IS TWICE THE PLAYER KAMPMAN EVER WAS is just asinine in my book.
I don't hold Grudges. It's counterproductive.
Agree with all of that. I wasn't remembering his statements about Kampman. Now that you bring them up, I do recall them and would also disagree with them.
PS...he also said the same thing comparing Jared Allen to Kampman. They are very similar players. Similar stats when healthy. Allen has had the beneifit of playing with a better front 7 than Kampman did. He never had to switch to a 3-4. He has had a more consistent career overall, but again, in Waldo's view you shouldn't even mention Kampman with Allen.
Allen has been slightly better due to health and the teams he played on. He is by no means significantly better than Kampman.
I don't hold Grudges. It's counterproductive.
I think Allen is better than Kampman (Significantly, probably not). More explosive, quicker. Not a better technician. About the same slightly worse than Kamp against the run. But the factors around them that make their careers distinct can't be ignored. Clifton manhandled Allen at KC in 2007 at the height of Allen's career, but got schooled in the Dome (but was dinged up). Kampman is solid; Allen flashy and streaky. Kampman is a great guy, Allen is a tool. That counts for something too.
Still waiting for Kampy to get 16 sacks too. Clay "was spotted 9"? Come on, now. He had 10 as a rook, and everyone was complaining that we didn't have any other pass rushers. Teams knew damn well what was coming, and they couldn't stop him.
"Never had B.J. Raji"? Kampy had KGB (6 sacks), Cullen Jenkins (6.5), and Corey Williams (7) out there with him in the season he got 15.5.
Let's not forget how good KGB was back in the day. He got 16.5 more sacks than Kampy in the same number of seasons. He kept a LOT of pressure off Kampy, and flushed a LOT of QBs into him.
Matthews has had guys like Erik Walden and Jarius Wynn rushing opposite him for much of the year, he missed a game and a half, he doesn't even rush the QB all the time, and he still has production that rivals Kampy's best year and is superior to Kampy's second best year.
I appreciate you keeping the memory of a great Packer alive, but you're just as biased as you are claiming Waldo to be, only in the other direction. I think it's fair to say that Clay right now is every bit the player Kampy was at his peak. Maybe not significantly better, but every bit as good.
And Kampman and Matthews are different players. Kampman in coverage was not a sight anybody wanted to see. Kampman as a pass rusher and run defender on the left side of the line, however, that was okay with me. He definitely mastered that LDE spot.
But Matthews is a different type of players. Despite the fact that they were both primarly pass rush and edge setters in run-defense, they went about it in completely different ways.
No longer the member of any fan clubs. I'm tired of jinxing players out of the league and into obscurity.
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