The Skinbasket Weighs in on New Redskins Nicknames

[bobblehead]

except that there is virtually no one left who even comes close to representing the symbol to whom "Chief Wahoo" appears derogatory. It's no worse than say a symbol that depicts ancestral whites from northern UK as being excessively belligerent while under the influence of alcohol. Anyway, if you put aside "Chief Wahoo" there is nothing at all different between a team nicknamed the 'Indians' versus the 'Patriots', except in the minds of ----- -------- (redacted, FYI), who are concerned with political correctness. (yet ironically, the same people who hate 'Chief Wahoo' in turn mock people dressed up as actual Patriots from colonial times).

Cool, are we playing Hang Man?? I will take the following letters: S.T.U.P.I.D. L.I.B.E.R.A.L.S

Do I win or do I hang (Make sure the picture of the guy hanging is racially ambiguous so as not to offend).

[mraynrand]

With the new Injun gaming casino next to Jacob's Field (or whatever the hell corp they' re calling it now) in Cleveland, I suggest the Indians be renamed the Cleveland Flush.

[Guiness]

I guess, having grown up around Indians, I never actually considered the term negative. Nor did any Indian I ever met. Just for the record is "frenchman, Italian, chinese" also derogatory? Should Indian Motorcycles change their name? Should we no longer have Indian reservations?

I don't know, maybe it's regional? It might have something to do with the relative prosperity of the Indians you grew up around, were they from reserves or grow up in town?

My HS had students bused in from 3 separate reserves. Many were low/no income, living almost entirely off government aid. Alcoholism was rampant. More than half of the kids dropped out of school after grade 10 (that's when they stopped getting paid to attend). It was not uncommon when driving through the reserves in the winter to see them tearing siding off their houses - they'd cut it up and burn it for heat. They also poached that shit out of every animal that moved. Ya, indian was a derogatory term, usually proceeded by "f'ing".

I've traveled to India for work on several occasions, and it took me a while to get to the point where I could easily say "so you're indian, right?" the same way they'd ask me if I was Canadian.

[mraynrand]

My HS had students bused in from 3 separate reserves. Many were low/no income, living almost entirely off government aid. Alcoholism was rampant. More than half of the kids dropped out of school after grade 10 (that's when they stopped getting paid to attend). It was not uncommon when driving through the reserves in the winter to see them tearing siding off their houses - they'd cut it up and burn it for heat. They also poached that shit out of every animal that moved. Ya, indian was a derogatory term, usually proceeded by "f'ing".

That's a pretty horrible story, all the way around.

[pbmax]

There is nothing derogatory about the word Indian used to describe a person or group of people. But its use as a team nickname lends itself very easily to caricature. Some teams I previously mentioned go to great lengths to avoid being insulting with the mascot and assorted rituals.

Chief Wahoo and Chief Noc-A-Homa are caricatures. Same with the Tomahawk chop.

Such depictions are derogatory. Irish alum and students at Notre Dame might not mind the Leprechaun. And that is their call. And I think the participation of Irish Catholics at all levels of the school make that a much easier sell.

[mraynrand]

There is nothing derogatory about the word Indian used to describe a person or group of people. But its use as a team nickname lends itself very easily to caricature. Some teams I previously mentioned go to great lengths to avoid being insulting with the mascot and assorted rituals.

Chief Wahoo and Chief Noc-A-Homa are caricatures. Same with the Tomahawk chop.

Such depictions are derogatory. Irish alum and students at Notre Dame might not mind the Leprechaun. And that is their call. And I think the participation of Irish Catholics at all levels of the school make that a much easier sell.

Participation of Irish Catholics 'at all levels' doesn't make depicting Irish as pugnacious drunks less derogatory. Ultimately it's all about power and status - Seminoles and the Angry Lucky Charms guy stay as mascots because the tribe/Irish were in charge of the choice; others have gone because the non-minorities in power felt guilty/were brought to account for depicting minorities in an unfavorable manner, with 'unfavorable' having a very broad range.

[pbmax]

Participation of Irish Catholics 'at all levels' doesn't make depicting Irish as pugnacious drunks less derogatory. Ultimately it's all about power and status - Seminoles and the Angry Lucky Charms guy stay as mascots because the tribe/Irish were in charge of the choice; others have gone because the non-minorities in power felt guilty/were brought to account for depicting minorities in an unfavorable manner, with 'unfavorable' having a very broad range.

I think power and status play a large part in how someone would react to it. And success would also affect how people feel about their affiliation. Poll Cheesheads in 1986 versus 1996 and I bet you get different results.

The Fighting Irish and Cheeseheads have been accepted and re-appropriated by the communities. But that acceptance is conditional and subject to change. Native tribes have not come to feel the same way about Wahoo and the Redskins.

[mraynrand]

I think power and status play a large part in how someone would react to it. And success would also affect how people feel about their affiliation. Poll Cheesheads in 1986 versus 1996 and I bet you get different results.

The Fighting Irish and Cheeseheads have been accepted and re-appropriated by the communities. But that acceptance is conditional and subject to change. Native tribes have not come to feel the same way about Wahoo and the Redskins.

Wahoo and Redskins are generic (Wahoo is always depicted I would argue as a negative caricature; Redskins less so) while Seminoles is a specific tribe/nation and therefore is backed by that specific tribe, even moreso because the depictions are generally tasteful and positive.

[Just Jeff]

If they made helmuts big enough, "The largely nomadic yet indigenous historical inhabitants of the Patomac river basin and its surrounding former wetlands"

[pbmax]

If they made helmuts big enough, "The largely nomadic yet indigenous historical inhabitants of the Patomac river basin and its surrounding former wetlands"

I did love Gregg Easterbrook's Washington Potomac Drainage Basin Indigenous Peoples.

[MadtownPacker]

Cool, are we playing Hang Man?? I will take the following letters: S.T.U.P.I.D. L.I.B.E.R.A.L.S

Do I win or do I hang (Make sure the picture of the guy hanging is racially ambiguous so as not to offend).

The thread is flowing just fine so why you gotta start that shit (again)? Discuss the topic without going there or I will have to go somewhere else.

[Zool]

First, they couldn't have lived farther from India if they tried....aside from moving to the moon. Second they were slaughtered as a people by Europeans so they are unhappy about the ancestors of those people using their name for gain. The Cleveland Indians' logo should be Chief Sanjay and he should have on a headset mic. Calling them Indians is like calling people from Africa, Irish. It's stupid, shows the ignorance of the time, and perpetuates a pretty shitty time in our country's timeline.

[mraynrand]

Second they were slaughtered as a people by Europeans so they are unhappy about the ancestors of those people using their name for gain.

not to mention by each other. That's why you never see people from the Cherokee Nation printing
Chickasaw or Choctaw t-shirts, even though they could make a bundle.

Calling them Indians is like calling people from Africa, Irish. It's stupid, shows the ignorance of the time, and perpetuates a pretty shitty time in our country's timeline.

What's in a name? A Crow* by any other name would smell as sweat. (at least after chasing Buffalo off a cliff)





*(hey wait, they're not Crows! - how offensive! That reminds me of more shitty times in America. OK, Plains Indians - not wait, now they're 'indians' again and they are 'plain.' No, no, they are 'Special' - wait, special? As in special needs? AAAARrrrgggggh! )

[3irty1]

The term "Indians" is loooonnnggggg past being an exonym. Hell, can it really not be PC when its actually policy? Its still the "Bureau of Indian Affairs" and the "Bureau of Indian Education" right? Its a historical error but one that's way beyond repair.

The term "Redskins" holds more water. Equivalent to being called "Injun" probably. It'll eventually change to something but it'll be a shame when it does. Fans will lose some sense of identity, and their moral superiors will lose a prized stallion of a high horse.

[Just Jeff]

I the indians got it easy. They've been stuck with the wrong offensive name for centuries. Its the people from africa that have it tough. What if you were the Cleveland slaves back in the day. You'd have to have it changed to Nigger, then Negro, then Black, then African American, then People of Color and I'm sure that I'm forgetting many others. The people who are descendants fo africans would love to be indians.

[MadtownPacker]

The people who are descendants fo africans would love to be indians.

Shit I would love stake in a casino too!!

[red]

i think we should stop using the term "indian" too. i mean, its just a reminder about how fucking stupid the guy who "found" this continent was

the asshole thought he was in india, he was only 10,000 miles off

[red]

Shit I would love stake in a casino too!!

usually you people have a pretty big chunk of "native" in you. you only need to be like a 1/4 or an 1/8 native to open a casino

i'm sure myan, or aztec or zapotec would still count as being indian

[mraynrand]

The term "Redskins" holds more water...

I'm not sure. I bet if you did one of those "man in the street" kind of questionnaires and specifically asked "What does the word 'Redskin' mean to you?' more people would answer 'the football team' than 'derogatory anti-native american slur.'

[mraynrand]

usually you people have a pretty big chunk of "native" in you. you only need to be like a 1/4 or an 1/8 native to open a casino

i'm sure myan, or aztec or zapotec would still count as being indian

Hey, if you're on the gaming commission, all you gotta have is one drop of indian blood to open up a new casino. There's money to be made in atoning for genocide. *Highlight for FYIers only: Just ask Elizabeth Warren