Is Aaron Rodgers even good anymore?

[George Cumby]

Remember when Mike Tyson was absolutely destroying anything that walked into the ring with him? Remember all the would be tough guys spraying they would gladly step into the ring with him for a million bucks to get knocked out? No, pal, you wouldn't, cause if you did, you'd be wheeled out with a TBI and be drooling into a cup for the rest of your life with all of those Franklins to spend on coke and hookers except you won't be able to get it up.

Similarly, Joe Lunchpail, walking onto the football field and taking a decent shot from a 250# linebacker is never gonna' be the same.

Solid props to any working stiff, but grueling, drudge work which results in repetitive over use injury isn't the same as intense blunt force trauma.

[mraynrand]

Remember when Mike Tyson was absolutely destroying anything that walked into the ring with him? Remember all the would be tough guys spraying they would gladly step into the ring with him for a million bucks to get knocked out? No, pal, you wouldn't, cause if you did, you'd be wheeled out with a TBI and be drooling into a cup for the rest of your life with all of those Franklins to spend on coke and hookers except you won't be able to get it up.

Similarly, Joe Lunchpail, walking onto the football field and taking a decent shot from a 250# linebacker is never gonna' be the same.

Solid props to any working stiff, but grueling, drudge work which results in repetitive over use injury isn't the same as intense blunt force trauma.

You might be surprised what 14,000 eight+ hour work days can do to your body. Depends on the exact nature of the job of course.

[pbmax]

Even Sean McVay and Jared Goff want a second offense: Rams Super Bowl regrets

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/08/26/fmia-andrew-luck-the-colts-and-the-retirement-that-rocked-nfls-world/?cid=nbcsports


“We got to a certain play that did have answers versus quarters coverage,” McVay said, pointing to the sixth Rams play, “but I think the biggest thing that you look at is, are you putting your players in a position to really understand and own the intent of what we’re trying to get done? And that’s where I feel like I fell short because whatever we’ve asked of our guys … What could I have done leading up to that game to have a better contingency plan and better communication specific to the ownership that we want to be able to have from coaches and players … Where I felt like I didn’t do nearly a good enough job is putting us in a position to really have an answer based on whatever they activate coverage-wise.”

In other words: Because the Patriots had been almost exclusively a single-high-safety defense for the season, and because here they were with two safeties deep, in a rare four-across cover scheme, it was up to McVay to not only call the right play (which he did) but then to emphasize to Goff exactly what he was seeing, and what deep shot might be there to be made. And he didn’t stress that enough either in preparation for the game or in the coach-to-QB communication as he called the play.

Very much like a lot of Packer ill-fated trips to the playoffs, if you just have your offense, you are probably going to score fewer points than you are used to.

[mraynrand]

“We got to a certain play that did have answers versus quarters coverage,” McVay said, pointing to the sixth Rams play, “but I think the biggest thing that you look at is, are you putting your players in a position to really understand and own the intent of what we’re trying to get done? And that’s where I feel like I fell short because whatever we’ve asked of our guys … What could I have done leading up to that game to have a better contingency plan and better communication specific to the ownership that we want to be able to have from coaches and players … Where I felt like I didn’t do nearly a good enough job is putting us in a position to really have an answer based on whatever they activate coverage-wise.”


WHAT KIND OF HELLISH GOBBLEDYGOOK IS THIS?

[mraynrand]

Even Sean McVay and Jared Goff want a second offense

Extended Offense™ is always the best Second Offense!!

[pbmax]

“We got to a certain play that did have answers versus quarters coverage,” McVay said, pointing to the sixth Rams play, “but I think the biggest thing that you look at is, are you putting your players in a position to really understand and own the intent of what we’re trying to get done? And that’s where I feel like I fell short because whatever we’ve asked of our guys … What could I have done leading up to that game to have a better contingency plan and better communication specific to the ownership that we want to be able to have from coaches and players … Where I felt like I didn’t do nearly a good enough job is putting us in a position to really have an answer based on whatever they activate coverage-wise.”


WHAT KIND OF HELLISH GOBBLEDYGOOK IS THIS?

Rams were not prepared for quarters coverage by the Patriots. Quarters coverage is common versus spread attacks especially in college but its a very conservative approach in the NFL (think 4th and 26). Its two deep safeties and corners who either start deep or bail to deep positions along the sidelines. Its a zone, four across deep coverage. Patriots run a lot of single high safety that starts zone and then becomes a matchup man scheme at the snap when the see the releases and routes.

The sixth play of the game was one of his calls that SHOULD have been effective versus quarters. But either Cooks or Goff didn't read it that way, and the QB threw short late and with pressure. With Cooks speed on a post or corner route, he should have been able to split the deep CB and safety as they are not singling him up and wouldn't be in a full backpedal.

I don't think this is the greatest route versus quarters, but Goff is good deep and Cooks is fast, so it could have worked had they been willing to run it. That picture in the article paints the difficulty very well, Cooks, a single receiver on the outside, looks double covered.

McVay is using empowerment language to convey the idea that the team (and possibly the coach) did not prepare them for this contingency.

[pbmax]

Or the coach could put it this way: capacity versus capability


“These kinds of things come up in every single game. It’s one thing to train guys for capability. It’s another thing to train them for capacity. Capability, guys can follow directions if you give specific orders. But capacity is the ability to give them contingency plans and the tools to be able to solve the problems even if it’s maybe something that you haven’t gone in and really practiced throughout the course of the week.

[mraynrand]

Rams were not prepared for quarters coverage by the Patriots. Quarters coverage is common versus spread attacks especially in college but its a very conservative approach in the NFL (think 4th and 26). Its two deep safeties and corners who either start deep or bail to deep positions along the sidelines. Its a zone, four across deep coverage. Patriots run a lot of single high safety that starts zone and then becomes a matchup man scheme at the snap when the see the releases and routes.

The sixth play of the game was one of his calls that SHOULD have been effective versus quarters. But either Cooks or Goff didn't read it that way, and the QB threw short late and with pressure. With Cooks speed on a post or corner route, he should have been able to split the deep CB and safety as they are not singling him up and wouldn't be in a full backpedal.

I don't think this is the greatest route versus quarters, but Goff is good deep and Cooks is fast, so it could have worked had they been willing to run it. That picture in the article paints the difficulty very well, Cooks, a single receiver on the outside, looks double covered.

McVay is using empowerment language to convey the idea that the team (and possibly the coach) did not prepare them for this contingency.

Good analysis. I wasn't complaining because I didn't understand what happened though. I was complaining because the language was overwrought and absurd. The obfuscation was deliberate, methinks. Could have just said, I wasn't prepared with a plan B that I could communicate to players.

[pbmax]

Good analysis. I wasn't complaining because I didn't understand what happened though. I was complaining because the language was overwrought and absurd. The obfuscation was deliberate, methinks. Could have just said, I wasn't prepared with a plan B that I could communicate to players.

Yeah, I read that as McVay lovingly throwing the players under the bus AND barely acknowledging that Belichick and Flores pulled one over his eyes and he never recovered.

Which is weird, because I guaranteed he has seen Quarters against a spread offense a lot on film, especially in college. Its not like the 68 Celtics pulled out a box and 1.

[mraynrand]

I read that as McVay lovingly throwing the players under the bus AND barely acknowledging that Belichick and Flores pulled one over his eyes and he never recovered.

exactly

[Smidgeon]

Or the coach could put it this way: capacity versus capability
“These kinds of things come up in every single game. It’s one thing to train guys for capability. It’s another thing to train them for capacity. Capability, guys can follow directions if you give specific orders. But capacity is the ability to give them contingency plans and the tools to be able to solve the problems even if it’s maybe something that you haven’t gone in and really practiced throughout the course of the week.

Does this indirectly imply GB might be in a better position than the Rams for this offense because of Rodgers' ability to process on the fly?

[pbmax]

Does this indirectly imply GB might be in a better position than the Rams for this offense because of Rodgers' ability to process on the fly?

They need each (script, game plan and adaptability) to mesh or you lose your receivers and the coaches along the way. But done correctly, the Packers have it better.

The Rams can spend more on offense though with Goff on a rookie deal, so he has a fleet of imported WRs.

[RashanGary]

Does this indirectly imply GB might be in a better position than the Rams for this offense because of Rodgers' ability to process on the fly?

I believe it gives us an advantage, yes.

[gbgary]

MLF just a few minutes ago: "...we've given him all the freedon." looks like rodgers won. lol

[Joemailman]

MLF just a few minutes ago: "...we've given him all the freedon." looks like rodgers won. lol

The context of the question though was when facing unscouted looks, which tends to happen early in the season. I don't think it means Rodgers would be free to change the play every time he wants as the season moves on. It would be foolish to give Rodgers no more freedom than a guy like Goff in L.A. has.

[RashanGary]

MLF just a few minutes ago: "...we've given him all the freedon." looks like rodgers won. lol

Lafleur is a tireless worker and detailed in what he does. I don’t think it’s winners and losers right now. I think it’s striking a balance between the way Lafleur is used to pressuring defenses with pace and plays that start out in a similar fashion.... and then adding in some of Rodgers experience and capability to make changes when needed.

I’m gonna give it the benefit of the doubt until something shows otherwise.

After the offseason and time to let everything soak in, i give MM and AR a pass because Gute got rid of Nelson then bright in Graham and a bunch of rookies who never played with Rodgers. AR and MM were doomed regardless and fought over how to fix it. It’s a completely different situation this year. Adams, Allison, Graham and MVS all have working relationships with the QB. They all started on page 1 together in the offense. I hope we lock Allison and MVS up and give AR and MLF some continuity on offense for the tail end of ARs career. And I’m curious to see this thing evolve.

In short, I’m not nearly as hard on AR or MM as I was months ago but AR has time to change my mind. I’m always open to new information.

[wist43]

I was slow to come around to thinking that Rodgers was a big part of the problem - but I'm seeing it more and more that way now.

Far too many times he just spits on a first down, or ignores open receivers underneath while he runs around waiting for something deep (low percentage) to open up.

We'll see, but he's going to have to prove it to me. I don't really trust him anymore.

[RashanGary]

I was slow to come around to thinking that Rodgers was a big part of the problem - but I'm seeing it more and more that way now.

Far too many times he just spits on a first down, or ignores open receivers underneath while he runs around waiting for something deep (low percentage) to open up.

We'll see, but he's going to have to prove it to me. I don't really trust him anymore.

True. And he seems to be really hard for newer guys to work with because he expects so many adjustments and it takes new guys a little time to get it all down.

[red]

True. And he seems to be really hard for newer guys to work with because he expects so many adjustments and it takes new guys a little time to get it all down.

Gotta suck for a young receiver to learn the plays and then bust your ass to try and run the plays right, only for your QB to then throw you under the bus because you didn’t just improvise and go deep

[RashanGary]

Gotta suck for a young receiver to learn the plays and then bust your ass to try and run the plays right, only for your QB to then throw you under the bus because you didn’t just improvise and go deep

Last year was really a nightmare scenerio with Nelson leaving and Allison going down so early. AR only had one guy he had any chemistry with. ARs style.... it was a perfect nightmare. Then Bulaga was 9 mos removed from ACL surgery and was not himself. And Taylor was hampered by an ankle. And McCray is....McCray. So AR just had the perfect storm of iffy OL play and inexperienced skill players to make his job a nightmare.

Some of it is his fault but then some of it..... it was just a really unlucky year for him.

[texaspackerbacker]

MLF just a few minutes ago: "...we've given him all the freedon." looks like rodgers won. lol

EXCELLENT! The recipe for a winning season.

[mraynrand]

Gotta suck for a young receiver to learn the plays and then bust your ass to try and run the plays right, only for your QB to then throw you under the bus because you didn’t just improvise and go deep

Maybe that's not what 'free reign' will actually mean. I suspect that Rodgers, the unmassaged new coach, and the receivers are all on the same page in how Rodger's 'freedom' translates. If Flower is smart, he'll have designed the offense to make the adjustments simple, and Rodgers also should be striving to not just go rogue, because he knows it leads to confusion.

[pbmax]

Gotta suck for a young receiver to learn the plays and then bust your ass to try and run the plays right, only for your QB to then throw you under the bus because you didn’t just improvise and go deep

QB has the ball. You wanna win or put tape up that pleases the coaches?

WR need to listen to the QB.

Coach needs to get the QB to listen to him.

If the NFL wanted it a different way, you just run a collegiate type offense.

[red]

Last year was really a nightmare scenerio with Nelson leaving and Allison going down so early. AR only had one guy he had any chemistry with. ARs style.... it was a perfect nightmare. Then Bulaga was 9 mos removed from ACL surgery and was not himself. And Taylor was hampered by an ankle. And McCray is....McCray. So AR just had the perfect storm of iffy OL play and inexperienced skill players to make his job a nightmare.

Some of it is his fault but then some of it..... it was just a really unlucky year for him.

this shit didn't just come out of nowhere last year

it was building up to that complete breakdown for many years

its been "seasons" of a-rod passing up wideopen short throws for first downs just to wait to see if a guy opens deep

its been "seasons" of him running away from his protection for no reason other then to allow the play to break down so guys can go deep

its been "seasons" of him destroying the gameplans by audibling out of called plays for the deep ball

last season, the national media just started picking up on what many packer fans have been denying for years and what the packer controlled reporters have been telling you doesn't even exist

people just finally saw that light that a few of us have been screaming about for years

[RashanGary]

Yes, AR has his issues. Lafleur definitely pushes check downs and short passes and runs more than AR is used to. Hopefully the new offense attacks all areas of the field better so we’re not so easy to defend.

[gbgary]

EXCELLENT! The recipe for a winning season.

riiiiiight. looks like it's going to be business as usual on O. greaaaat.

[Fritz]

QB has the ball. You wanna win or put tape up that pleases the coaches?

WR need to listen to the QB.

Coach needs to get the QB to listen to him.

If the NFL wanted it a different way, you just run a collegiate type offense.

Wait, I thought that's what we're doing now.

[pbmax]

Wait, I thought that's what we're doing now.

Sort of. They have adjusted to Ryan and presumably Rodgers. But if you have Goff, its college all the way.

[mraynrand]

this shit didn't just come out of nowhere last year

it was building up to that complete breakdown for many years

its been "seasons" of a-rod passing up wideopen short throws for first downs just to wait to see if a guy opens deep

its been "seasons" of him running away from his protection for no reason other then to allow the play to break down so guys can go deep

its been "seasons" of him destroying the gameplans by audibling out of called plays for the deep ball

last season, the national media just started picking up on what many packer fans have been denying for years and what the packer controlled reporters have been telling you doesn't even exist

people just finally saw that light that a few of us have been screaming about for years

So you blame Rodgers. And you blame Stubby, even though you blame Rodgers for going away from what Stubby called? That you think would have worked better? Were the gameplans good or bad? If good, then Stubby was good/right. If bad, then Rodgers is good/right for abandoning them, right? How does your angst-filled self logically navigate these tortuous contradictions and still blame them both?

[pbmax]

@jasonjwilde
Spoon: "Is having a QB who knows how to handle unscouted looks an advantage?"
LaFleur: "Absolutely. We’ve given him all the freedom. So if he sees something, he’s got the green light to do whatever he needs to do to get us into a good play. We’re not going to take that from him."

There is literally nothing inconsistent with this statement and the two play option he described when he started the job. Rodgers can change the play, he may very well be expected to change the play to the alternative one called.

[mraynrand]

EXCELLENT! The recipe for a winning season.

TexRogue™ offense

[gbgary]

@jasonjwilde
Spoon: "Is having a QB who knows how to handle unscouted looks an advantage?"
LaFleur: "Absolutely. We’ve given him all the freedom. So if he sees something, he’s got the green light to do whatever he needs to do to get us into a good play. We’re not going to take that from him."

There is literally nothing inconsistent with this statement and the two play option he described when he started the job. Rodgers can change the play, he may very well be expected to change the play to the alternative one called.
if rodgers will stick to that design. the all the freedom line suggests it goes beyond that. winks at adams (goes deep). "run down to the chevy and turn around." unforced scramble drill (ball ends up in the stands).

[call_me_ishmael]

We're gonna find out this season. The Packers will largely go as far as Rodgers can take them assuming players for the most part remain healthy. If he's just an 8-8 guy henceforth, woof, that contract is an albatross and a big mistake.

[texaspackerbacker]

TexRogue™ offense

Nothing "rogue" about it - just Goodness and Normalcy.

When you have a very mobile GOAT QB, and your O Line is kinda mediocre, you sure as hell don't "run first". You let your GOAT QB work his magic and throw in an occasional run for change of pace, in other words, use common sense.

And the thing I really hate seeing any team do that I want to win is quick passes - carelessly throwing into coverage in a lot of cases, getting interceptions way too often - any interception is too many. Thankfully, the Packers with Rodgers doesn't do that - past, present, and I assume, future. Even in the preseason with Boyle, and most of the time even with Kizer, they didn't put it up for grabs like other teams.

[Fritz]

So you blame Rodgers. And you blame Stubby, even though you blame Rodgers for going away from what Stubby called? That you think would have worked better? Were the gameplans good or bad? If good, then Stubby was good/right. If bad, then Rodgers is good/right for abandoning them, right? How does your angst-filled self logically navigate these tortuous contradictions and still blame them both?

You just gotta let Red be Red.

[mraynrand]

You just gotta let Red be Red.

true dat. Every once in a while I gotta throw a wrench in there though, just to see if he's paying attention!

[red]

So you blame Rodgers. And you blame Stubby, even though you blame Rodgers for going away from what Stubby called? That you think would have worked better? Were the gameplans good or bad? If good, then Stubby was good/right. If bad, then Rodgers is good/right for abandoning them, right? How does your angst-filled self logically navigate these tortuous contradictions and still blame them both?

i blame rodgers running whatever the hell he wants and having no rhythm on offense

i blame fat fuck for allowing that to happen. stubby had no balls, allowing a-rod to self destruct

they are both to blame. stubby mailed itin and gave up years ago, and just stayed around for the rub downs while the inmates ran the asylum

i would have hoped that we would have brought in a new coach to right the ship, but it seems like the new kid was just brought in to appease the inmates and to let them continue to do whatever they want

[pbmax]

Matt La Fleur has had enough questions about audibles!

https://twitter.com/AaronNagler/status/1168949283405672448

[RashanGary]

i would have hoped that we would have brought in a new coach to right the ship, but it seems like the new kid was just brought in to appease the inmates and to let them continue to do whatever they want

Honestly, this seems accurate to me. I posted a new thread that digs into this exact situation in great depth and with clear light.

[RashanGary]

Matt La Fleur has had enough questions about audibles!

https://twitter.com/AaronNagler/status/1168949283405672448


But it’s truly relevant

https://amp-si-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.si.com/mmqb/2016/02/02/nfl-super-bowl-50-gary-kubiak-peyton-manning?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQEKAFwAQ%3D%3D#aoh=15675394553918&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.si.com%2Fmmqb%2F2016%2F 02%2F02%2Fnfl-super-bowl-50-gary-kubiak-peyton-manning

[pbmax]

Here is some actual evidence that Rodgers defenders and detractors should wrestle with.

https://twitter.com/benbbaldwin/status/1169274668383125510

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDoYhKrWkAA6SEU?format=jpg&name=small

new-age analytical @benbbaldwin
This Packers run game thing is like a meme at this point.

The last time they finished outside of the top 10 in rushing DVOA was 2012. In the past 3 seasons, they've been No. 5, and No. 3, and No. 3! https://theathletic.com/1183201/2019/09/04/qa-with-chris-b-brown-on-kliff-kingsbury-the-air-raid-aaron-rodgers-and-lamar-jackson/

DVOA does track success (not much credit for a 3rd and 12 draw play that gains 7) but it doesn't separate out teams ignoring the run to play Rodgers and pass defense. However, it does beg the question why the Packers did not run more.

And that begs the question: why was the defense so BAD at holding leads?

Captain Comeback (Scott Kacsmar) did a comparison of Brady, Rodgers, Brees and Manning recently. Brees and Manning uniformly has the worst teammate situation for defenses, and Rodgers was mediocre in comparison. Brady had stellar help from his D.

[pbmax]

Peter Bukowski @Peter_Bukowski

Packers rush efficiency rank according to
@fboutsiders
DVOA

2015: 10
2016: 5
2017: 3
2018: 3
Matt LaFleur's philosophy of predicating everything on the run game fits with what is already a strength of the Packers.


The problem with this analysis is that they weren't really running outside zone, they were a run first attack so teams did not game plan them and if you increase the use of the run, its efficiency will decrease. You need to make up for it with passing.

Will be interesting to see in action.

[mraynrand]

And that begs the question: why was the defense so BAD at holding leads?

no pass rush and a terrible secondary, especially at safety. Also, did they really blow a lot of leads?

[pbmax]

no pass rush and a terrible secondary, especially at safety. Also, did they really blow a lot of leads?

Sure, but as wist has pointed out, why can't they draft to fix it? Always the same problems for almost a decade.

[red]

what has our TOP looked like over the years?

i would think that ignoring the run (whether in was fat mike not calling enough runs, or a-rod changing the running plays at the line), and always looking for the big play, would lower our TOP

a lower TOP would hurt defenses laterin games

a 1 play 90 yard touchdown drive looks good on the scoreboard, but its not exactly giving your defense a breather

[pbmax]

no pass rush and a terrible secondary, especially at safety. Also, did they really blow a lot of leads?

Yes. Not as bad as some of Manning's and Bree's worst team defenses, but its not been good.

This has changed in the last two years as the offense has struggled to get the lead early. Which, in turn, has turned Rodgers comeback numbers up. Bad teams usually have a lot of comebacks.

[pbmax]

what has our TOP looked like over the years?

i would think that ignoring the run (whether in was fat mike not calling enough runs, or a-rod changing the running plays at the line), and always looking for the big play, would lower our TOP

a lower TOP would hurt defenses laterin games

a 1 play 90 yard touchdown drive looks good on the scoreboard, but its not exactly giving your defense a breather

Too late to do the calculations, but looking since 2011, Packers have had TOP edge in 62 games out of 128 games. 47 and 15 in those games.

They are 34 and 32 when losing the TOP battle.

But this looks a LOT like running late with a lead.

[mraynrand]

Yes. Not as bad as some of Manning's and Bree's worst team defenses, but its not been good.

This has changed in the last two years as the offense has struggled to get the lead early. Which, in turn, has turned Rodgers comeback numbers up. Bad teams usually have a lot of comebacks.

I was referring only to last year. Anecdotally* the inability to close out games has always been a problem. Given that almost every team needs a top 10 defense to win, I’m hoping all the investment in defense really pays off and they close out games far more with good defense than with their running game.


*anecdotally translates to “I’m too lazy to look it up rn”

[call_me_ishmael]

Not sure. Sure looked like same old ARod much of the night.

[texaspackerbacker]

Not sure. Sure looked like same old ARod much of the night.

Amen to that ....... but not as much as it shoulda look like - and woulda looked like if the Packers had dropped behind late.

[call_me_ishmael]

Amen to that ....... but not as much as it shoulda look like - and woulda looked like if the Packers had dropped behind late.

Amen to that... the Packers put up 10 points... ARod was terrible tonight.

[texaspackerbacker]

hahahahahahaha

[Fosco33]

In Week 1, only 33% of Aaron Rodgers' throws were deemed accurate.

That ranked worst of all 32 qualifying quarterbacks.

[MadScientist]

In Week 1, only 33% of Aaron Rodgers' throws were deemed accurate.

That ranked worst of all 32 qualifying quarterbacks.

Since he was 18/30 that means he completed 8 inaccurate passes.

[texaspackerbacker]

Which means it's all subjective crap from know nothing media pukes.

[mraynrand]

Which means it's all subjective crap from know nothing media pukes.

That or it was the refs.

[bobblehead]

In Week 1, only 33% of Aaron Rodgers' throws were deemed accurate.

That ranked worst of all 32 qualifying quarterbacks.

https://dairylandexpress.com/2019/09/10/green-bay-packers-demise-aaron-rodgers/

Seems like a good time and place for this.

ARod isn't the same as he once was. Not as mobile, not as a accurate. I can't guess if its temporary, but this article nails every point I would like to point out so read up. I used to say its impossible to blitz Rivers and ARod. Now its just impossible to blitz Rivers.

Last point. I did see one play later in the 3rd?? quarter when the bears literally had 7 men on the line and 2 just off the ball in the middle box. We ran for no gain. Now I pimp the run as much as anyone, but if ever there was a time for an audible that was it. Maybe just maybe the drone of "Rodgers free lances too much" affected him. When a team stacks up that bad you have to audible to a pass....and no it wasn't 3rd and inches or anything like that.

[yetisnowman]

Which means it's all subjective crap from know nothing media pukes.

I watched a ton a football Sunday and Monday. Aaron had one of the worst passing performances I observed all week. Luckily for the Packers Trubisky was one of the few who was worse. When you watch Aaron throw low, high, behind, in front of his WRs, how do reconcile it? If anything the media is what keeps propping him up as a super elite, god-like qb...whereas factual data supports it less and less every year.
Watch the straight up dimes guys like Watson, Wentz, Prescott, Brady, etc were throwing. Hitting guys in stride, perfect loft where his athletes can high point the ball. Deep balls that scored Tds instead of 40 yard gains because they were thrown correctly and accurately.
Hopefully Aaron can fix whatever's wrong with him. It doesn't seem to be getting better.

[Patler]

Since he was 18/30 that means he completed 8 inaccurate passes.

I can recall several, including the long one to MVS, that were not very accurate, but were caught.

[pbmax]

Most likely, I think several factors have come into play late in his career:

1. HIs speed is down. He gets caught from behind a lot when going horizontal to throw out of the pocket
2. His accuracy is down, but I wonder if that is a physical issue from the two clavicle breaks so he can overcompensate to get the ball deep, but has no touch anymore
3. His favorite throws have never been short, and those are worse now. Oddy, he has gotten somehow better at screens, which used to baffle him
4. His mechanics are doing him no favors. He did not used to need a platform, but he might now.
5. He doesn't trust his reads and wants to see the player open. Too much time with a struggling McCarthy offense or lack of trust in his aim? No idea. Maybe both.
6. Legs worry him. I suspect he doesn't want anymore injuries to his legs after finally getting his left knee squared away in 2014 and then injuring it again last year. Convinces him to throw without a plant.

Development of MVS and the involvement of Allison might help alleviate 5. But I don't have much hope this gets better. The offensive system will need to bear some of the load which would be OK if they can figure out how to reliably run outside zone.

I had though the physical issues would sort themselves out with an uneventful offseason. Doesn't seem to be the case.

[SudsMcBucky]

In Week 1, only 33% of Aaron Rodgers' throws were deemed accurate.

That ranked worst of all 32 qualifying quarterbacks.

Maybe we shoulda kept Kizer and cut Rodgers. Another Gutey mistake.

[mraynrand]

Last point. I did see one play later in the 3rd?? quarter when the bears literally had 7 men on the line and 2 just off the ball in the middle box. We ran for no gain. Now I pimp the run as much as anyone, but if ever there was a time for an audible that was it. Maybe just maybe the drone of "Rodgers free lances too much" affected him. When a team stacks up that bad you have to audible to a pass....and no it wasn't 3rd and inches or anything like that.

That look can be a 6-7 man rush, or just 3. Disguise is the key. Disguise by looking identical at the snap regardless of how many are sent. So that an audible to a pass might audible you into full coverage. Knowing tendencies of the defense probably helps, and Maybe an RPO gives you more time to see the defense declare?

The no-declare front, which the Steelers seemed to like until they crossed the Patriots, doesn't seem to be Pagano's style though. Beating man coverage might be the key. But you have to get the ball out before your protection breaks down. Can't look deep/wait for guys to come open. Have to throw people open, which Rodgers has done less and less of since he lost Jennings, then Nelson, and now Cobb.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/2019-nfl-predictions-bears-look-primed-for-regression-and-here-are-all-the-reasons-why/

https://www.chicitysports.com/forum/index.php?threads/fangio-vs-pagano-defense.72763/

[Teamcheez1]

I'm glad everyone has been able to make a complete and thorough analysis of AR's physical well-being and mechanics after playing in his first real action in 8 months against possibly the best defense in the league in a brand new offense.

[mraynrand]

If you’re arguing that the Bears game was only a glimpse, was like a preseason tune up, and will not necessarily be representative of the entire season, I can only say it’s a reasonable position and I hope Rodgers continues to play better as the season continues.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Most likely, I think several factors have come into play late in his career:

1. HIs speed is down. He gets caught from behind a lot when going horizontal to throw out of the pocket
2. His accuracy is down, but I wonder if that is a physical issue from the two clavicle breaks so he can overcompensate to get the ball deep, but has no touch anymore
3. His favorite throws have never been short, and those are worse now. Oddy, he has gotten somehow better at screens, which used to baffle him
4. His mechanics are doing him no favors. He did not used to need a platform, but he might now.
5. He doesn't trust his reads and wants to see the player open. Too much time with a struggling McCarthy offense or lack of trust in his aim? No idea. Maybe both.
6. Legs worry him. I suspect he doesn't want anymore injuries to his legs after finally getting his left knee squared away in 2014 and then injuring it again last year. Convinces him to throw without a plant.

Development of MVS and the involvement of Allison might help alleviate 5. But I don't have much hope this gets better. The offensive system will need to bear some of the load which would be OK if they can figure out how to reliably run outside zone.

I had though the physical issues would sort themselves out with an uneventful offseason. Doesn't seem to be the case.

Or Rodgers' game appears off b/c he's throwing to wankers. None of the receivers on the team, save for Adams, would make the Jets 53. Allison would be cut by 31 other teams, and he's starting.

[call_me_ishmael]

Most likely, I think several factors have come into play late in his career:

4. His mechanics are doing him no favors. He did not used to need a platform, but he might now.
6. Legs worry him. I suspect he doesn't want anymore injuries to his legs after finally getting his left knee squared away in 2014 and then injuring it again last year. Convinces him to throw without a plant.

I had though the physical issues would sort themselves out with an uneventful offseason. Doesn't seem to be the case.

Good, thoughtful post.

It's too early to know for sure about his health this year in my opinion. That said, if #4 and #6 really are valid, then I don't think he should be playing QB in the NFL any longer. You know what you're getting into as a QB, and it's fair to choose to not get hit, I 1000% get it, but once you reach that stage where you're more interested in not getting hurt than throwing soundly, it's time to hang 'em up.

[Upnorth]

My biggest concern is his inaccurate mid range passes. A couple of times if he kept the ball a bit higher the wr could have gotten a ton of yac, mvs in particular. Unfortunately I'm worried it is not just rust. The Vikings have an elite secondary as well so at least he is being tested earlier and can't coast.

[Gotarace]

The one thing that I found concerning is Aaron missing backs and quick hitting routes bouncing the the ball off the field three yards before them...Isn't that the most basic and easiest route to hit....he surly didn't look anywhere near sharp in the opener.

[yetisnowman]

I'm glad everyone has been able to make a complete and thorough analysis of AR's physical well-being and mechanics after playing in his first real action in 8 months against possibly the best defense in the league in a brand new offense.

I guess you've missed the last like 4 seasons where his mechanics and accuracy have steadily gotten worse. Thursday was a continuation of last season and that season a continuation of the one before that.

[pbmax]

I'm glad everyone has been able to make a complete and thorough analysis of AR's physical well-being and mechanics after playing in his first real action in 8 months against possibly the best defense in the league in a brand new offense.

Its a fair point. Rodgers also suffers in comparison to himself. Its also a new offense that was not going well except for one drive in the second half.

But some of these issues have lingered. It will be interesting to see what it looks like when they stop running the extended offense against great pass rushes.

[RashanGary]

Aaron Rodgers 2018 season set the record for lowest interception rate in a season at .3%

The things Rodgers does, he does on purpose. It doesn’t happen by accident. The interception aversion is nice. The refusal to use parts of the field, not so nice. Now we need to slightly adjust his intentions to be win focused more than some of his strange aversions. Aaron’s gonna be OK.

[pbmax]

Aaron Rodgers 2018 season set the record for lowest interception rate in a season at .3%

The things Rodgers does, he does on purpose. It doesn’t happen by accident. The interception aversion is nice. The refusal to use parts of the field, not so nice. Now we need to slightly adjust his intentions to be win focused more than some of his strange aversions. Aaron’s gonna be OK.

What is intentional about not being able to throw a pass to the flat?

[RashanGary]

What is intentional about not being able to throw a pass to the flat?

He threw a lot on the flat in practice this year. So it starts in practice. I think he’ll be ok.

[pbmax]

He threw a lot on the flat in practice this year. So it starts in practice. I think he’ll be ok.

I hope so. But he hasn't been OK in the regularly scheduled offense since 2014.

[RashanGary]

I hope so. But he hasn't been OK in the regularly scheduled offense since 2014.

People with all22 saying he passed up a bunch of open short stuff again in favor of holding the ball. I’ll take another look. I have game pass so I’ll see if I can see that as well. AR just can’t get out of his own way with his holding the ball thing. It’s such a habit. He just loves waiting on that deep stuff.

[Fritz]

Its a fair point. Rodgers also suffers in comparison to himself. Its also a new offense that was not going well except for one drive in the second half.

But some of these issues have lingered. It will be interesting to see what it looks like when they stop running the extended offense against great pass rushes.

That pass he threw toward the end of the Bears game on second down when the Pack was trying to keep possession to run out the clock - the one to the wide receiver on the right, which is supposed to be a quick possession-type pass - it's the kind of thing that gives Tex nightmares, and almost resulted in a pick-six. Rodgers just cannot seem to make that throw.

One completion he made was a poorly thrown ball to Tyrone Davis - Davis had to go to his knees to scoop it in, and he was pretty wide open. I wonder if Rodgers's inability or unwillingness to set his feet any more might have a role in all this.

[pbmax]

That pass he threw toward the end of the Bears game on second down when the Pack was trying to keep possession to run out the clock - the one to the wide receiver on the right, which is supposed to be a quick possession-type pass - it's the kind of thing that gives Tex nightmares, and almost resulted in a pick-six. Rodgers just cannot seem to make that throw.

One completion he made was a poorly thrown ball to Tyrone Davis - Davis had to go to his knees to scoop it in, and he was pretty wide open. I wonder if Rodgers's inability or unwillingness to set his feet any more might have a role in all this.

Teamcheese is right that judging against the Bears defense is tough and he had a messy pocket a lot of the time.

And he he is still the QB who usually drops 25+ points on good Bears Defenses in the last three years. I also forgot to list that Pagano is a new DC who probably did some unscouted looks.

Early in his career her had happy feet. Perhaps more success running will help. We'll see.

[gbgary]

I guess you've missed the last like 4 seasons where his mechanics and accuracy have steadily gotten worse. Thursday was a continuation of last season and that season a continuation of the one before that.
yup


Aaron Rodgers 2018 season set the record for lowest interception rate in a season at .3%

The things Rodgers does, he does on purpose. It doesn’t happen by accident. The interception aversion is nice. The refusal to use parts of the field, not so nice. Now we need to slightly adjust his intentions to be win focused more than some of his strange aversions. Aaron’s gonna be OK.
also set a record for throw-aways. bear game was a continuation of 2018. it's early but i'm not encouraged by anything except the defense right now.

[RashanGary]

yup


also set a record for throw-aways. bear game was a continuation of 2018. it's early but i'm not encouraged by anything except the defense right now.

I didn’t realize that. It’s interesting to me how he came out in the second half of the Bears game last year hobbled and was throwing dimes against good coverage right where only his guy had a chance. And then when he has a free play, he does the same, just puts a beautiful ball in tight coverage.

I’m not saying go Favre on us, but Brady has a way of knowing where and when tight coverage is ok. Rodgers could do those slants and crossers in tighter coverage and keep his interceptions down too. He could also throw a few more check downs. Interceptions would stay down and sacks and throw aways would go down. Also, defenses would have to honor more of the field so it would open up some of his favorite stuff too.

[RashanGary]

Brady to me is the Gold standard at QB. Helps that he’s so tall and can see over the line and throw over the line. But boy, he just runs crisp offense with 4-9 yard plays, few negatives, few penalties..... positive yardage over and over and over and over and then the chunk plays fall in his lap. AR works so damn hard for those chunk plays. Kinda sad that he’s so stubborn. Sad for him.

[MadScientist]

Teamcheese is right that judging against the Bears defense is tough and he had a messy pocket a lot of the time.

And he he is still the QB who usually drops 25+ points on good Bears Defenses in the last three years. I also forgot to list that Pagano is a new DC who probably did some unscouted looks.

Early in his career her had happy feet. Perhaps more success running will help. We'll see.

The Packers offense should have given the Bears D a ton of unscouted looks, but they handled everything, and the Packers offense handled nothing. Didn't help that the O-line looked like blocking concepts were something they'd never heard of.

[pbmax]

The Packers offense should have given the Bears D a ton of unscouted looks, but they handled everything, and the Packers offense handled nothing. Didn't help that the O-line looked like blocking concepts were something they'd never heard of.

They had a GREAT year run blocking in 2017 with Lane Taylor and Jahri Evans. It was worse in 2018 without Evans, a revolving door at RG and Taylor being replaced by a pod person.

Last week looked a lot more like 2018.

[Teamcheez1]

“My only ask is that we don’t do the wave when we’re on offense,” Rodgers said, via Matt Schneidman of TheAthletic.com.

Now we know the key to success for Rodgers this weekend.

[bobblehead]

Rodgers may have declined, but he still is clearly good enough to win an Owl with a good D. I think next years draft we should contemplate finding the heir apparent, 3 years on the bench sounds about right. Learn the fine points of M4s offense. Watch Rodgers. Then go from there. We do need a plan though. As much as I like Boyle as a backup, I'm not sure he is the future at QB...I'm pretty sure he isn't.

[Fritz]

“My only ask is that we don’t do the wave when we’re on offense,” Rodgers said, via Matt Schneidman of TheAthletic.com.

Now we know the key to success for Rodgers this weekend.

I was curious about this. Why would he not want fans to do the wave while the offense is out there? Is that really so eye-catching?

[texaspackerbacker]

Reverse psychology for future road games - Vikings and other teams' fans will do the wave, thinking he doesn't like it, the noise caused by the wave will actually disrupt the signal calling of the defense, all is good for Rodgers and the Packers.

[RashanGary]

I don’t think Rodgers fully understands the mechanics of a wave. It takes 15 minutes to build that shit up. Once you get it going, you can’t help but keep it going cuz to start over would ruin 15 minutes of work.

But it’s hilarious because I can see how he finds it absolutely retarded to have a wave while he’s on offense. From his perspective as quarterback, he’s probably struggling to wrap his mind around why people would possibly do something so stupid.

[mraynrand]

I don’t think Rodgers fully understands the mechanics of a wave.

Rodger's wave mechanics are shot too! Can that fucker get anything right?

[SudsMcBucky]

I don’t think Rodgers fully understands the mechanics of a wave. It takes 15 minutes to build that shit up. Once you get it going, you can’t help but keep it going cuz to start over would ruin 15 minutes of work.

But it’s hilarious because I can see how he finds it absolutely retarded to have a wave while he’s on offense. From his perspective as quarterback, he’s probably struggling to wrap his mind around why people would possibly do something so stupid.

The wave is stupid regardless if Rodgers is on the field or not.

[pbmax]

Wave = Noise = Harder to call offensive signals and the count. Think about it a little, if the wave got loud enough, you'd have to do the silent count at home. That makes zero sense and puts the tackles in bad positions with their pass blocks. You want the noise to disrupt the visiting offense. No one wants to do the silent count.

It does take time to get the wave going, which is why you need vets out there in the crowd to time it right. Especially if they are going for the multiple-effect wave (regular, slow, fast, reverse, cross).

The Wave is among the greatest 20th century inventions. Complaining about it and your fans is counter productive.

[pbmax]

Brought tears to my eyes.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G3jPZGA71A

[mraynrand]

When the wave was really popular, fans would start it whenever just to do it. At Lambeau, I’ve mostly seen it done when the fans were bored with a nasty or sloppy game, or when the game was in the bag. Lambeau is by far the quietest NFL stadium (excepting of course the stadiums of perennial doormat/non-competitive teams where such fans as exist are in comas) and the wave does increase the noise level, but it’s unfocused and can bother the O as much as maybe help the D. I don’t like the artificial horns and scoreboard “make noise” crap but Lambeau fans could use a few leaders in the crowd who are more interested in bothering the other team’s offense rather than drinking blackberry brandy and whiskey from their plastic flasks!

[pbmax]

When the wave was really popular, fans would start it whenever just to do it. At Lambeau, I’ve mostly seen it done when the fans were bored with a nasty or sloppy game, or when the game was in the bag. Lambeau is by far the quietest NFL stadium (excepting of course the stadiums of perennial doormat/non-competitive teams where such fans as exist are in comas) and the wave does increase the noise level, but it’s unfocused and can bother the O as much as maybe help the D. I don’t like the artificial horns and scoreboard “make noise” crap but Lambeau fans could use a few leaders in the crowd who are more interested in bothering the other team’s offense rather than drinking blackberry brandy and whiskey from their plastic flasks!

Need a purge of the season ticket list.

[RashanGary]

The old timers don’t understand how the NFL has evolved to the point where the fans are the 12th man on defense. They get annoyed at us 38 year old whipper snappers for standing and yelling.

Lambeau has a loud crowd during cold games cuz the old timers sell their tickets

During nice weather games, that’s when it’s at its worst.

[RashanGary]

I’m also a big fan of the wave. Seeing that many people working together is really cool in person.

[gbgary]

slo-mo wave...that's hilarious

[Gotarace]

Aaron is good for about a Quarter...After that it was a Shit-Show. Baby Steps for our "Little Prima Donna"

[Teamcheez1]

Aaron is good for about a Quarter...After that it was a Shit-Show. Baby Steps for our "Little Prima Donna"

2-0. Work to be done.

[Rastak]

2-0. Work to be done.


Defense won that game. Refs helped a bit but GB defense won the day from what I saw.


edit: Also Cousins extremely shitty play.

[RashanGary]

Aaron is good for about a Quarter...After that it was a Shit-Show. Baby Steps for our "Little Prima Donna"

Pretty much. Looks like he’s fighting the system. Wants everything his way

[RashanGary]

Eli Manning is playing for a bad giants team and doesn’t throw fits like AR. I’m getting fed up

[pbmax]

Pretty much. Looks like he’s fighting the system. Wants everything his way

You are going a long way with this when you don't even know what he was mad about yet.

[Rastak]

You are going a long way with this when you don't even know what he was mad about yet.


I agree with that but does this guy ever just play and not be mad?

[pbmax]

I agree with that but does this guy ever just play and not be mad?

Not when playing like dog breath.

[Rastak]

Not when playing like dog breath.


Got ya, he does seem pissed all the time lately.

[mraynrand]

I'm just getting to watch the game. Through first half, it really does look like the offense is much better with Rodgers under center. Defense really cheats when he's in short/shot gun and presses and kinda looks to rush Rodgers rather than stay at home guarding against run. This offense can work.

[Rastak]

I'm just getting to watch the game. Through first half, it really does look like the offense is much better with Rodgers under center. Defense really cheats when he's in short/shot gun and presses and kinda looks to rush Rodgers rather than stay at home guarding against run. This offense can work.


Watch the second half.

[texaspackerbacker]

I am SO SO glad that We have the QB we have instead of the pick throwing piece of crap that other piece of shit team has.

[Rastak]

I am SO SO glad that We have the QB we have instead of the pick throwing piece of crap that other piece of shit team has.


Yea, we'll check the standings at the end of the year monkey dick.

I agree you got the better QB........Bears win as I type this.

[texaspackerbacker]

Yea, we'll check the standings at the end of the year monkey dick.

I agree you got the better QB........Bears win as I type this.

Are you still around here, you God damned scumsucking lowlife? Go back to wherever the hell sonofabitchin' Viking asshole fans go and get the fuck out of our forum. '

[Gotarace]

Are you still around here, you God damned scumsucking lowlife? Go back to wherever the hell sonofabitchin' Viking asshole fans go and get the fuck out of our forum. '
Wow Rastak must have Tea Bagged your Chin...Soaked his Nuts in hot Water and Served that Tea to you with Crumpets

[pbmax]

Are you still around here, you God damned scumsucking lowlife? Go back to wherever the hell sonofabitchin' Viking asshole fans go and get the fuck out of our forum. '

That's Rastak. He's been around as long as you have. You got to call his QB a piece of dung and he got to call you a tiny penis.

Offsetting fouls. Replay the down.

[Rastak]

That's Rastak. He's been around as long as you have. You got to call his QB a piece of dung and he got to call you a tiny penis.

Offsetting fouls. Replay the down.


LOL, fair enough man.

[pbmax]

Pretty much. Looks like he’s fighting the system. Wants everything his way

Press conference he said the disagreement was about the look of the defense the Vikings were showing. Rodgers said he was surprised M4 wanted to come over (to the bench to talk about it).

[channtheman]

Press conference he said the disagreement was about the look of the defense the Vikings were showing. Rodgers said he was surprised M4 wanted to come over (to the bench to talk about it).

He's your coach. If he wants to discuss something, discuss it.

P.S. The wave is awesome.

[mraynrand]

Are you still around here, you God damned scumsucking lowlife? Go back to wherever the hell sonofabitchin' Viking asshole fans go and get the fuck out of our forum. '

piss off

[mraynrand]

Watch the second half.

Yep, Rodgers is better under center. Packers played better than I thought, based on the very negative game day thread.

I like their running game; showing great improvement. Jenkins should take over for Taylor permanently. And they should have completed more passes; some were just better defense, others were just game of inches. (MVSx2, Jones pass breakups).

On defense, would like to see J'xander make those catches.

I like the trajectory of this team.

[Rastak]

Yep, Rodgers is better under center. Packers played better than I thought, based on the very negative game day thread.

I like their running game; showing great improvement. Jenkins should take over for Taylor permanently. And they should have completed more passes; some were just better defense, others were just game of inches. (MVSx2, Jones pass breakups).

On defense, would like to see J'xander make those catches.

I like the trajectory of this team.



I can't ague too much. They scare me.

[pbmax]

He's your coach. If he wants to discuss something, discuss it.

P.S. The wave is awesome.

Well, that was a bit of a deflection. Rodgers was pissed and was showing it along the sideline.

The coach had to talk to him.

But Rodgers was pretty mum about the exactly nature of the dispute over the Vikings D look.

[call_me_ishmael]

I am SO SO glad that We have the QB we have instead of the pick throwing piece of crap that other piece of shit team has.

How many Super Bowls has it won?

[red]

does anyone have rodgers stats over the last 16 or 32 games he's played?

someone posted something last season maybe, that showed his recent numbers put him in the bottom half of nfl starters

[red]

pft seems to think that a-rod was yelling "well what do you want me to do", after throwing the ball away

we need to find out what the coach said. did he say

"don't change the fucking play"

or

"hit the quick routes"

or

"why did you hold the ball so long and then throw it away when you had 4 guys open short?"

or

" the wr had a step on the defender, he was open, throw it"?

or

"blame yourself not the wrs"

or

"quit acting like a fucking child"

or

"trust your blocking and quit bailing early"

[RashanGary]

Yep, Rodgers is better under center. Packers played better than I thought, based on the very negative game day thread.

I like their running game; showing great improvement. Jenkins should take over for Taylor permanently. And they should have completed more passes; some were just better defense, others were just game of inches. (MVSx2, Jones pass breakups).

On defense, would like to see J'xander make those catches.

I like the trajectory of this team.

Reasonable

[pbmax]

pft seems to think that a-rod was yelling "well what do you want me to do", after throwing the ball away

Jibes with the disagreement about reading the defense.

[Bretsky]

What were AROD's stats after the 1st half ?

He has an outstanding start; and then hit the shitter

[pbmax]

PASSING ATT CMP YDS SK/YD TD LG IN RT

A.Rodgers 22 16 151 0/0 2 39 0 121.6

[channtheman]

PASSING ATT CMP YDS SK/YD TD LG IN RT

A.Rodgers 22 16 151 0/0 2 39 0 121.6

And he was actually something like 12/14 for 145 yards and 2 TD's after the first quarter. (estimated)

[pbmax]

Yeah, at one point he has one incompletion and it was a throw away OOB.

[red]

Yeah, at one point he has one incompletion and it was a throw away OOB.

i want to say he was like 10-11 at that point, if i remember right

[George Cumby]

Pretty decent numbers. Just not what we are used to.

Well, before 2016 (?), I guess.

[RashanGary]

After cooling down.... AR played an OK game. We’re spoiled by the lack of turnovers so we don’t even consider it a feat. But he didn’t turn the ball over AGAIN! That goes a long way toward winning.

Him and Lafleur still look out of sync. I’m really, really, really hoping it cleans up soon.

[Joemailman]

After cooling down.... AR played an OK game. We’re spoiled by the lack of turnovers so we don’t even consider it a feat. But he didn’t turn the ball over AGAIN! That goes a long way toward winning.

Him and Lafleur still look out of sync. I’m really, really, really hoping it cleans up soon.

They sure didn't look out of sync the first 20 minutes. But once the Vikings made adjustments, they didn't seem to have a counter. They need to find some answers there. There were some missed opportunities out there. Misthrows to MVS and Jones, drops by MVS and Adams, fumble by Allison. Need to execute against that good of a defense, because the opportunities will be somewhat limited.

[bobblehead]

After cooling down.... AR played an OK game. We’re spoiled by the lack of turnovers so we don’t even consider it a feat. But he didn’t turn the ball over AGAIN! That goes a long way toward winning.

Him and Lafleur still look out of sync. I’m really, really, really hoping it cleans up soon.

Winning fixes a lot of ills. Playing a patsie would be nice so we could win a blowout and everyone feels good. I expect there will be more back and forth, but if they have mutual respect it will work out fine. If not...

[gbgary]

mike greenberg wonders... (https://www.espn.com/watch/player?id=28290225)

[call_me_ishmael]

mike greenberg wonders... (https://www.espn.com/watch/player?id=28290225)

This was an interesting view.

[texaspackerbacker]

THIS IS JUST THE FUCKED UP OPINION OF A FUCKED UP MEDIA PUKE. FUCK HIM AND THE HORSE HE RODE IN ON!

CMI, I suppose the likes of you would see idiotic shit like that as interesting.

[MadtownPacker]

I think Rodgers is still good and can regain greatness. I just think he needs to adapt his game some. Can he drop a football in a small space still? Yeah I saw some vid recently where he was putting them in buckets from deep. Can he do it with big mofos trying to destroy him is the question. I think he needs to be put in a cage with a mountain lion charging him until he tames it. That’s a Talladega Nights reference btw.

Point being he needs to get over his worry of getting broken again. That’s why he isn’t hitting those deep throws anymore IMO. He just doesn’t seem as cool out there as before.

[pbmax]

You go from Nelson, Jones and Cobb to Adams, Allison and Lazard and you will look mortal too. In 2016 with a healthy Cook, limited but still good version of Nelson and resurgent Adams, he nearly won an MVP based on less than a half season of work.

Even Brady has been experiencing this in the last two years. You can scheme it up, get 15 good plays, maybe 3 drives, but the rest of the time the talent really shows through.

He not be what he once was, but unless your trading him for draft picks and defense, you build around him. The most glaring error of the last two years on offense was not to get effective WR help. Perhaps if ESB is healthy its a different story.

[George Cumby]

THIS IS JUST THE FUCKED UP OPINION OF A FUCKED UP MEDIA PUKE. FUCK HIM AND THE HORSE HE RODE IN ON!

Lol.

But how do you REALLY feel?

[Zool]

Lol.

But how do you REALLY feel?

HE HAS A BONER FOR RODGERS THAT JUST WONT QUIT!

[Patler]

THIS IS JUST THE FUCKED UP OPINION OF A FUCKED UP MEDIA PUKE. FUCK HIM AND THE HORSE HE RODE IN ON!

CMI, I suppose the likes of you would see idiotic shit like that as interesting.

What I like most about Tex is that he is always willing to respectfully consider contrary opinions.

[gbgary]

You go from Nelson, Jones and Cobb to Adams, Allison and Lazard and you will look mortal too. In 2016 with a healthy Cook, limited but still good version of Nelson and resurgent Adams, he nearly won an MVP based on less than a half season of work.

Even Brady has been experiencing this in the last two years. You can scheme it up, get 15 good plays, maybe 3 drives, but the rest of the time the talent really shows through.

He not be what he once was, but unless your trading him for draft picks and defense, you build around him. The most glaring error of the last two years on offense was not to get effective WR help. Perhaps if ESB is healthy its a different story.

but the guys are getting open as the stat says they are. as ben fennell, and other analysts who break down the film, say they are. it's his refusal to throw the ball on rhythm and in a timely manner. he's holding onto the mccarthy offense and there's nothing MLF can do about it. that's why the O looks the way it does with constant spread formations, shotgun, with him holding the ball. the stats aren't lying. your eyes aren't lying to you either. he's in the middle third of the league in most stat categories. how they're 10-3 is nothing short of a miracle. gute's done what he could to build the team considering the constraints the cap has put on him...largely due to rodgers' contract. if you remember i advocated they trade him a couple of years ago. they extended him instead, early even, without seeing him play coming off the collarbone on his throwing arm. the cap goes up next season but rodgers bite will eat it up. they'll be drafting in the mid to high 20's and find themselves back in nfl purgatory. not good enough to win, not bad enough to build, and with insufficient cap room, and a regressing, stubborn qb who's suddenly hinting retirement.

[Patler]

This was an interesting view.

With interesting stats.

GB receivers have the highest separation rate in the league? Kind of supports what many have said, Rodgers often overlooks open receivers.
OL ranked 1st in the league in pass pro.
Rodgers is 31st in the league throwing into tight windows.
Rodgers is middle of the league in other stats.

Makes one wonder were the blame really lies, doesn't it?

GB fans suffered from Favre blindness late in his career. Perhaps Rodgers blindness is now setting in. Age related declines are inevitable. Truly great players learn to adapt. Elway was no where near the player he once was when he won two Super Bowls, but he was still a great QB because he accepted that and adapted.

[Cheesehead Craig]

but the guys are getting open as the stat says they are. as ben fennell, and other analysts who break down the film, say they are. it's his refusal to throw the ball on rhythm and in a timely manner. he's holding onto the mccarthy offense and there's nothing MLF can do about it. that's why the O looks the way it does with constant spread formations, shotgun, with him holding the ball. the stats aren't lying. your eyes aren't lying to you either. he's in the middle third of the league in most stat categories. how they're 10-3 is nothing short of a miracle. gute's done what he could to build the team considering the constraints the cap has put on him...largely due to rodgers' contract. if you remember i advocated they trade him a couple of years ago. they extended him instead, early even, without seeing him play coming off the collarbone on his throwing arm. the cap goes up next season but rodgers bite will eat it up. they'll be drafting in the mid to high 20's and find themselves back in nfl purgatory. not good enough to win, not bad enough to build, and with insufficient cap room, and a regressing, stubborn qb who's suddenly hinting retirement.

His cap hit goes from 13.5% to 15.5%, which isn't awful.

I agree with you that Rodgers isn't adapting his game to the new offense and the reports of him not pulling the trigger on open WRs is coming from more and more sources. I hope he can fix himself, because at this point, he's the only one that can do it.

[beveaux1]

Rodgers is never going to be the QB that makes his yards in the middle of the field.

His go-to routes have always been the middle sidelines, the flat, and post or go routes deep.

Each of these throws has a lower percent chance of interception, and with the receivers he has now, those routes are open less often.

It doesn't surprise me that his stats are showing middling performance. He's still capable of a great game, it's just less likely.

Rodgers age, history of injuries, and with it, slightly declining physical skills, along with a drop in talent at WR, means that our offense can't recover after a misfire like a negative play or penalty.
In years past, 2nd and 15 was very manageable. Now it means that in two plays, we'll punt.

I don't think we make a lot more mistakes than we made in year's past. We just can't get past the mistakes.

[beveaux1]

I've had the opportunity to look at 4 or 5 games of all 22(coaches film) and I've seen the same things that Ben Fennell has seen.

There are definitely open receivers. Rodgers is sometimes antsy in the pocket, bailing quickly even when protection is holding up.

But, if you look at the film and try to see the routes that Rodgers' prefers. They are not usually open. A WR might break open over the middle,
but the sideline route and the RB in the flat are not open. Some of the time, that's when he throws the post to a doubled WR, probably in hopes of getting a flag.

At this point in his career, Rodgers is not going to change where he looks to throw. He will not give up an interception in a contested game. The best chance for
this offense to show marked improvement is to get another "sudden" WR. One that quickly gets open so that Rodgers can hit his preferred throws.

That means waiting until next year.

[texaspackerbacker]

What I like most about Tex is that he is always willing to respectfully consider contrary opinions.

God damned media shitheads don't deserve ...

PB: The rest you can take to FYI

[Smidgeon]

He used to be better at the middle stuff, didn't he?

[George Cumby]

HE HAS A BONER FOR RODGERS THAT JUST WONT QUIT!

I WAS ADDICTED TO DICK! I! WAS! ADDICTED! TO! DICK!

[ThunderDan]

God damned media shitheads don't deserve to live much less be considered credible.

Once again showing your horrible self. It is really sad.

You really are a snowflake if you can’t hear what is actually happening on the field. The guy has studied the film from all of our games. Posters in the game day thread comment over and over that guys are open over the middle and Rodgers won’t throw it. Game stats show that our Oline is much better than you give it credit for and more credit that I give it also.

[George Cumby]

God damned media shitheads don't deserve ...

Because the violent suppression of those who express opinions different from ones own in no way...

PB: Please finish your thought in FYI

[gbgary]

God damned media shitheads don't deserve to live much less be considered credible.

the media didn't create those stats...rodgers did. lol

[gbgary]

His cap hit goes from 13.5% to 15.5%, which isn't awful.

I agree with you that Rodgers isn't adapting his game to the new offense and the reports of him not pulling the trigger on open WRs is coming from more and more sources. I hope he can fix himself, because at this point, he's the only one that can do it.

anything over 11% is bad. anything over 12 is awful. anything over 13 is god awful. 15% is ridiculous. only one qb has ever won a SB over 13...steve young...the first year of the cap. only 4 qb's had ever won with 11+%. peyton, eli, young, and brady. last year brady was 12.4 (which is unusually high for him).

[beveaux1]

He used to be better at the middle stuff, didn't he?

He’s always thrown it if the receiver is WIDE open. Very seldom with a safety bearing down or with a CB within a step of the WR.

[texaspackerbacker]

Once again showing your horrible self. It is really sad.

You really are a snowflake if you can’t hear what is actually happening on the field. The guy has studied the film from all of our games. Posters in the game day thread comment over and over that guys are open over the middle and Rodgers won’t throw it. Game stats show that our Oline is much better than you give it credit for and more credit that I give it also.

You God damned imbecilic ingrate. Other QBs do what stupid fools wish for - throw it quick into traffic and throw interceptions and give away games. I'll take a QB who does not do that any day. If you think differently, you are as much of an idiot as your posts make you seem.

[texaspackerbacker]

Because the violent suppression of those who express opinions different from ones own in no way resembles fascism.

Why is not this piece of shit banned or at least threatened for politics - not to mention idiocy? If you have the balls, take your shit to FYI.

[ThunderDan]

You God damned imbecilic ingrate. Other QBs do what stupid fools wish for - throw it quick into traffic and throw interceptions and give away games. I'll take a QB who does not do that any day. If you think differently, you are as much of an idiot as your posts make you seem.

Who is throwing INTs in the NFL this year? Winston, Mayfield, Darold, Rivers, Prescott. A bunch of QBs who are mostly on bad teams that need to press to try and win games

Who isn’t throwing INTs? Bree’s, Brady, Cousins, Mahommes, Jackson, Rodgers, Wentz.

Why don’t you know the facts first before your run your mouth like an idiot. You can’t even admit to the truth. ARod is having a below average year for him and a very average year for an NFL QB.

[George Cumby]

Why is not this piece of shit banned or at least threatened for politics - not to mention idiocy? If you have the balls, take your shit to FYI.

First point please take to Interpol.

Second point ot FYI.

[red]

I've had the opportunity to look at 4 or 5 games of all 22(coaches film) and I've seen the same things that Ben Fennell has seen.

There are definitely open receivers. Rodgers is sometimes antsy in the pocket, bailing quickly even when protection is holding up.

But, if you look at the film and try to see the routes that Rodgers' prefers. They are not usually open. A WR might break open over the middle,
but the sideline route and the RB in the flat are not open. Some of the time, that's when he throws the post to a doubled WR, probably in hopes of getting a flag.

At this point in his career, Rodgers is not going to change where he looks to throw. He will not give up an interception in a contested game. The best chance for
this offense to show marked improvement is to get another "sudden" WR. One that quickly gets open so that Rodgers can hit his preferred throws.

That means waiting until next year.

this has been going on for years, the commentators have just been covering up for him . they would show guys making a break and getting a step on a guy, then tells us that the guy wasn't open

this is why we needed to get rid of fat mike years ago. he allowed all this to happen, he let rodgers do whatever he wanted and continue to get away with not throwing to the open guys for short to mid yardage

a-rods offense isn't good enough, and at this point, i don't think he's going to give up his power to do whatever he wants. somehow, someway, someone has to try and convince him that his way sucks

but like we saw with his own family, if anyone does anything other then blow rose smelling smoke up his ass, he'll disown them

the people in charge (murphy), should have seen this and traded him last offseason instead of re signing him

[red]

He used to be better at the middle stuff, didn't he?

i remember our bread and butter was the slant

[red]

You God damned imbecilic ingrate. Other QBs do what stupid fools wish for - throw it quick into traffic and throw interceptions and give away games. I'll take a QB who does not do that any day. If you think differently, you are as much of an idiot as your posts make you seem.

don't worry. i reported your personal attack on dan

if you can't take someone elses opinion without getting pissed off and attacking them, then you need to not be on the internet

you need to not be on the site anymore. you and radagast are really turning this place to shit

[esoxx]

Rodgers virtually revealed himself following the Giants win. Go listen to his post-game presser. He was delighted the field was slick/snow covered as there were more "off schedule" plays to be had in those conditions. "Off schedule" simply means not running the regular offense the way it's designed, it means school yard, run around type stuff looking for deep shots with defenders slipping or falling in those conditions.

That's why I think they're in trouble in the climate controlled elements at Minnesota and if they should happen to have to play the Saints in New Orleans in the playoffs.

Off schedule plays also means getting the defense to jump offsides on a hard count, thus getting the free play. Ever notice how great he is on those free plays? He steps right up and drills it too someone who may even be minimally covered and usually makes a nice play. Why can't he do that on "scheduled" plays and run the damn offense?

I think he could still be great if he would run an offense the way it's designed.

[Joemailman]

i remember our bread and butter was the slant

When Favre was the QB. I never thought Rodgers threw the slant as well.

Is Rogers' approach now really any different than it was when he was great? I'm not sure it is. He's broken both collarbones and had significant calf and knee injuries. And of his current receivers, only Adams is comparable to the group of receivers he once had. I think those are more the reasons for his decline.

[Patler]

i remember our bread and butter was the slant

Never with Rodgers. That was during the Favre years. Early in Rodgers career as a starter, one of the writers did an interview with MM and asked what changed going from Favre to Rodgers as his starting QB. At that time he said the basics of the offense had not changed, but as a play caller he had to be mindful of what throws his QBs preferred and were best at. The example he gave was that Favre's favorite was slants, and he was very good at it. He said Rodgers much preferred and was best at outside, sideline throws. MM said his play calling changed to reflect that different QBs are better at different throws.

I have thought about that comment ever since, and have mentioned it here and in conversations when fans ask what happened to the slant. Basically, Rodgers didn't like throwing it.

[beveaux1]

When Favre was the QB. I never thought Rodgers threw the slant as well.

Is Rogers' approach now really any different than it was when he was great? I'm not sure it is. He's broken both collarbones and had significant calf and knee injuries. And of his current receivers, only Adams is comparable to the group of receivers he once had. I think those are more the reasons for his decline.

The current emphasis on tall receivers with or without straight line speed has Rodgers looking at Adams as his only true WR that can run his bread and butter routes. Allison, Kumerow, Scantling, and Lazard don’t have the quickness required to get separation quickly.

Lazard can run the go and the skinny post. Scantling can run the post. Allison can catch the WR screen in the flat. Don’t know what Kumerow can run well, obviously neither does Rodgers.

This will change in the off-season. Not enough bullets in the gun right now.

[ThunderDan]

I will say that ARods choice not to throw INTs and 50/50 balls has kept this team in games. I really don’t think our talent was improved enough to be a 12-4 team and yet that seems like the most likely outcome at this point.

Gute has improved the talent on the D side of the ball. We need to improve the talent for the O this offseason.

[Zool]

I do get tired of watching team after team eat the middle of the Packers D up, while Rodgers basically refuses to throw there. When he does, it’s a beat late and the WRs get their heads taken off.

[texaspackerbacker]

I will say that ARods choice not to throw INTs and 50/50 balls has kept this team in games. I really don’t think our talent was improved enough to be a 12-4 team and yet that seems like the most likely outcome at this point.

Gute has improved the talent on the D side of the ball. We need to improve the talent for the O this offseason.

I've said right from the start, this whole disgrace of a thread was nothing but ignorant and ungrateful bitching and whining. Giving credit where it's due, though, your post here is a rare bit of good sense.

As you say, the overall talent on offense is not all that special, yet here we are at 10-3 with a better than even chance at 13-3. And the same shitheads are still pissing and moaning about the guy who is primarily responsible for that success. The obvious difference between our GOAT QB and all those other others doing the kind of shit some fools in here crave is not throwing interceptions. Yet some are too damn dumb to see that.

As for not using the middle of the field, it's not as extreme that way as some in here make it out to be, but to the extent that it is: when pressure forces the QB out of the pocket virtually every pass play, throwing it back into the middle is basically the most risky pass you can throw.

As for those quick slants, I've never liked those. Way too many things can go wrong - and do go wrong for other teams that do use that a lot.

[Radagast]

After Aaron Rodgers, Aaron Jones is GB's best offensive asset. The WRs and TEs have failed to consistently impress. RT and Receivers should be the Packers offseason priority.

[Strange Brew]

Rodgers is fine! His recievers are trash, junk, crap, really bad and just journey men practice squad guys!! The organization hasn't done a damn thing to fix the problem this past off season or during the season!! Where the hell is Sternberger? He's back and healthy! USE HIM!!

[Joemailman]

Rodgers is fine! His recievers are trash, junk, crap, really bad and just journey men practice squad guys!! The organization hasn't done a damn thing to fix the problem this past off season or during the season!! Where the hell is Sternberger? He's back and healthy! USE HIM!!

Sternberger may be part of the solution in the future. Near future. Pretty tough for a rookie to miss all the time he did and be productive now though.

TT has great success drafting WR's in the 2nd round. Packers haven't drafted a WR that high since Adams in 2014. That needs to change and probably will this year. It's a strong group of WR's entering the draft this year. Signing a moderately priced free agent wouldn't be a bad idea either.

[Patler]

Rodgers is fine! His recievers are trash, junk, crap, really bad and just journey men practice squad guys!!

Then why do they have the highest separation rate in the league? Something doesn't compute! It seems they have receivers who aren't dynamic, flashy or suited to the big plays, but more than capable for methodical, grind it out drives. The issue seems to be that too often in the middle of games they foregoe the singles and doubles, looking for the triples and homeruns that the receivers are not consistently capable of.

I find it telling that when the game requires it, opening drives to establish the offense and late drives to preserve victories, the drives have been there, including passes to open receivers for modest gains. The same approach needs to be used more often in the 2nd and 3rd quarters.

[red]

could this also be the reason why the red zone offense has struggled for so long?

red zone is basically forcing rodgers to throw to the routes he refuses to throw to

[red]

Never with Rodgers. That was during the Favre years. Early in Rodgers career as a starter, one of the writers did an interview with MM and asked what changed going from Favre to Rodgers as his starting QB. At that time he said the basics of the offense had not changed, but as a play caller he had to be mindful of what throws his QBs preferred and were best at. The example he gave was that Favre's favorite was slants, and he was very good at it. He said Rodgers much preferred and was best at outside, sideline throws. MM said his play calling changed to reflect that different QBs are better at different throws.

I have thought about that comment ever since, and have mentioned it here and in conversations when fans ask what happened to the slant. Basically, Rodgers didn't like throwing it.

i almost ended at the end of that line "or was that farve?"

but i just couldn't believe it was that long ago that we ran the slants

[Joemailman]

could this also be the reason why the red zone offense has struggled for so long?

red zone is basically forcing rodgers to throw to the routes he refuses to throw to

Rodgers is near the top in red zone efficiency this year. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/redzone-passing.htm

It's one reason this team is 10-3 despite the fact their play doesn't always seem that great.

[Fritz]

I've had the opportunity to look at 4 or 5 games of all 22(coaches film) and I've seen the same things that Ben Fennell has seen.

There are definitely open receivers. Rodgers is sometimes antsy in the pocket, bailing quickly even when protection is holding up.

But, if you look at the film and try to see the routes that Rodgers' prefers. They are not usually open. A WR might break open over the middle,
but the sideline route and the RB in the flat are not open. Some of the time, that's when he throws the post to a doubled WR, probably in hopes of getting a flag.

At this point in his career, Rodgers is not going to change where he looks to throw. He will not give up an interception in a contested game. The best chance for
this offense to show marked improvement is to get another "sudden" WR. One that quickly gets open so that Rodgers can hit his preferred throws.

That means waiting until next year.


Beveaux's two posts on this topic make the most sense to me; his sentiments are echoed by others in this thread. I don't know if I'll have the time or make the time to look it up, but I'd like to see what percentage of Rodgers's throws are over the middle versus toward the sidelines, and also see what depth he most frequently throws to. If in fact Rodgers is loathe to throw short or middling deep over the middle, he's made opposing D coordinators' jobs easier. You still have to have people cover the middle, but you can use more of your resources to cover the sideline areas.

What we have to remember, too, is that Rodgers, like other NFL superstar QB's, has been told for most of his pro career how wonderful he was. Hell, even when he was a junior college QB, he was still considered the best athlete ever coming out of Chico, CA. Then he becomes an All Pro QB, and he's told, over and over and over, that he can do no wrong. Think about it: he got all affronted over being drafted 25th or whatever it was in the first round. As one commentator once said, every NFL athlete is very likely the best athlete in the history of whatever little city or town he came out of. Ever. So when players like Rodgers get to a certain level, they become gods. And gods are never wrong. So no wonder Rodgers would balk at being told he's got to do things differently than he does. He's been encouraged to value his skills, his football IQ, and his opinions regarding running an offense.

Detroit fans often complain that Matt Stafford doesn't stand up enough and demand enough from the Lions' organization. They want him to stand up in the meeting room and call out the coach, tell him the plan won't work, have his guys' backs. But Matt Stafford is not an "A" type personality. He's just not. The down side is that he's not demanding, but the downside of that type of player - like Rodgers - is that they are stubborn and won't accept the idea they might need to change.

[Bossman641]

Then why do they have the highest separation rate in the league? Something doesn't compute! It seems they have receivers who aren't dynamic, flashy or suited to the big plays, but more than capable for methodical, grind it out drives. The issue seems to be that too often in the middle of games they foregoe the singles and doubles, looking for the triples and homeruns that the receivers are not consistently capable of.

I find it telling that when the game requires it, opening drives to establish the offense and late drives to preserve victories, the drives have been there, including passes to open receivers for modest gains. The same approach needs to be used more often in the 2nd and 3rd quarters.

I haven't watched the video but I think that separation stat is misleading. Unless something has changed, it only grades separation of the WR that is targeted, not all WR on the field. Since Rodgers rarely forces the ball to covered guys, this makes the WR look better then they actually are under this grading methodology.

[pbmax]

He’s always thrown it if the receiver is WIDE open. Very seldom with a safety bearing down or with a CB within a step of the WR.

This is overstating the case.

I flat out don't buy the separation stat. There is nothing except Adams that stands out to me in route running this year. Allison and Graham aren't getting wide open. Tonyan was open today buy wan't bending the route away from coverage to open a lane to throw. Its as simple as that.

Rodgers doesn't think anyone other than Adams or Lazard will win a contested ball. I think its as simple as that.

I think half the pass blocking efficiency is Rodgers moving around. Or waiting.

[pbmax]

nm

[pbmax]

could this also be the reason why the red zone offense has struggled for so long?

red zone is basically forcing rodgers to throw to the routes he refuses to throw to

Except the Packers are second in the League in the red zone for TDs.

[gbgary]

Except the Packers are second in the League in the red zone for TDs.
due to running the ball.

[beveaux1]

This is overstating the case.

I flat out don't buy the separation stat. There is nothing except Adams that stands out to me in route running this year. Allison and Graham aren't getting wide open. Tonyan was open today buy wan't bending the route away from coverage to open a lane to throw. Its as simple as that.

Rodgers doesn't think anyone other than Adams or Lazard will win a contested ball. I think its as simple as that.

I think half the pass blocking efficiency is Rodgers moving around. Or waiting.

I remember one throw today that was over the middle to Graham. It was almost intercepted by a Bear's LB. Nearly every other throw was to the sideline, the flat, or deep to the post. I do agree that I'm probably overstating, though.

[beveaux1]

He did complete a medium post over the middle to Adams that was virtually uncovered. Big gain.

[pbmax]

due to running the ball.

OK, but red said its a crappy red zone team. Which it's not.

[esoxx]

OK, but red said its a crappy red zone team. Which it's not.

Due to running the ball.

[MadtownPacker]

What does running the ball due?

[pbmax]

Due to running the ball.

I read Catch-22, the Emmitt Smith story, years ago. You can't confuse me.

[esoxx]

Who said what now?

[MadtownPacker]

Who said what now?PB said he was confused due to running the ball.

[esoxx]

PB said he was confused due to running the ball.

Perhaps he's been drinking.

[red]

I think it’s safe to say he’s no longer elite

We’re not gonna win games anymore just because he’s our QB

[MadtownPacker]

Oh shit Niners about to lose after spot review!

[George Cumby]

I think it’s safe to say he’s no longer elite

We’re not gonna win games anymore just because he’s our QB

So my question is: is he aware enough to put his ego aside and be a game manager? IDK. I have my doubts.

[Freak Out]

So my question is: is he aware enough to put his ego aside and be a game manager? IDK. I have my doubts.

One would hope so. His legacy is on the line here. They can win with Jones and Williams running the ball and Arod managing the field.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Never with Rodgers. That was during the Favre years. Early in Rodgers career as a starter, one of the writers did an interview with MM and asked what changed going from Favre to Rodgers as his starting QB. At that time he said the basics of the offense had not changed, but as a play caller he had to be mindful of what throws his QBs preferred and were best at. The example he gave was that Favre's favorite was slants, and he was very good at it. He said Rodgers much preferred and was best at outside, sideline throws. MM said his play calling changed to reflect that different QBs are better at different throws.

I have thought about that comment ever since, and have mentioned it here and in conversations when fans ask what happened to the slant. Basically, Rodgers didn't like throwing it.

Was there ever a better WR than Nelson with those sideline catches? He had amazing body control and was a perfect fit for Rodgers. Driver and Jennings were also very good on the borders as well. This would definately explain why Finley didn't thrive here like he should have. He was a middle of the field threat, but not so much on the sideline. Rodgers just couldn't (or wouldn't) get him the ball where he was best at.

[pbmax]

PB said he was confused due to running the ball.

This is close to the truth.

[pbmax]

He can be elite again but he needs talent at WR that can do what he needs. It’s no longer vice versa. Good point on Finley though they sent a lot of balls his way both pre and post injury. Finley was another guy that rarely won contested balls.

The best illustration in this game was Marcedes catch on a flat route that seemed like it was going for a first. He had a blocker in front but got stopped cold anyway. Never got up a head of steam.

Should have been a first. If they had more of that, offense looks a lot different.

[smuggler]

I mean, I think it's safe to say that the passing game is not near what it has been in the past. But, of all the parts of the passing game that you might address/fix, QB is probably at the bottom of the list.

[Zool]

I mean, I think it's safe to say that the passing game is not near what it has been in the past. But, of all the parts of the passing game that you might address/fix, QB is probably at the bottom of the list.

If he could adapt, he would make the shitty receivers better.

[pbmax]

If he could adapt, he would make the shitty receivers better.

This is where I think GBGary proved correct (at least partially). He is not too eager to make changes to his passing game.

I don't think he cares if they run more, especially since its been effective.

But its going to take some new receivers to change up the passing game.

[yetisnowman]

It's weird with Aaron. By my count he's had a couple great games, couple good, and the rest mediocre-bad by his standards. Yet it seems impossible to imagine any other starting QBs in the NFL being 11-3 with this squad. If GB had an "average" guy, like some metrics show Rodgers to be I see 3-5 wins. Say Rivers, Stafford, Carr, Allen(s), etc. Maybe I'm delusional but that's how it feels.

[call_me_ishmael]

It's weird with Aaron. By my count he's had a couple great games, couple good, and the rest mediocre-bad by his standards. Yet it seems impossible to imagine any other starting QBs in the NFL being 11-3 with this squad. If GB had an "average" guy, like some metrics show Rodgers to be I see 3-5 wins. Say Rivers, Stafford, Carr, Allen(s), etc. Maybe I'm delusional but that's how it feels.

I tend to agree.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

I tend to agree.

I don't agree. Dude has become a prima donna. Always seems to try to blame other players. We may or may not advance in the playoffs (football is a strange game), but I STRONGLY recommend they start looking at Rodgers replacement.

[PA Pack Fan]

I don't agree. Dude has become a prima donna. Always seems to try to blame other players. We may or may not advance in the playoffs (football is a strange game), but I STRONGLY recommend they start looking at Rodgers replacement.

Did you see him giving Tonyan an earful when he threw it at his feet instead of running it himself upfield 5 yards for a 1st down?

[pbmax]

Did you see him giving Tonyan an earful when he threw it at his feet instead of running it himself upfield 5 yards for a 1st down?

Yep. I think he wanted that route bent away from coverage to get him an angle to throw now that h was out of the pocket.

OBNDY, I agree they should be drafting for his replacement. Should have started 2 years ago, but hindsight is 20/20.

[gbgary]

So my question is: is he aware enough to put his ego aside and be a game manager? IDK. I have my doubts.

the answer is no. he's going to do whatever he wants. he's totally out of MLF's control.

[Patler]

Perhaps if ESB is healthy its a different story.

I have thought that myself several times this year. ESB showed talent for the sideline throws last year as a rookie. I recall one incredible catch along the sidelines, and another impressive effort to get his feet down while falling out of bounds. He is a more physical player than EVS, and made a few good blocks, too. I was looking forward to seeing his development in his second year. Now that is delayed.

He could be a good match for what Rodgers likes to throw.

[beveaux1]

I have thought that myself several times this year. ESB showed talent for the sideline throws last year as a rookie. I recall one incredible catch along the sidelines, and another impressive effort to get his feet down while falling out of bounds. He is a more physical player than EVS, and made a few good blocks, too. I was looking forward to seeing his development in his second year. Now that is delayed.

He could be a good match for what Rodgers likes to throw.

By the end of the year last year, I thought he had progressed past Scantling. This year, it appears Scantling has regressed. ESB seemed to have more branches on his route tree by year's end.
Scantling, at this stage, is losing snaps every week and seems to have a confidence problem. Could we have another J'Mon Moore situation?

[pbmax]

the answer is no. he's going to do whatever he wants. he's totally out of MLF's control.

This is manifestly not true.

It is true he is not exactly a moldable rookie starter though. He has his preferences for where to throw.

[Fritz]

This is manifestly not true.

It is true he is not exactly a moldable rookie starter though. He has his preferences for where to throw.

Remember, nobody likes to throw up.

[MadScientist]

Remember, nobody likes to throw up.

So burn all copies of the game film for the 4th quarter?

[Smidgeon]

So burn all copies of the game film for the 4th quarter?

Of every game this year...

[texaspackerbacker]

I pretty much agree that Rodgers is out of LaFleur's control to a great extent, and the Packers are better off for it. Furthermore, I don't see LaFleur as so weak as to just let that happen. Rather, he is smart enough and non-ego-driven enough to subordinate a lot of his own ideas to Rodgers' way of doing things.

A lot has been said about the overall personnel, etc. of the Packers not being good enough not to be 11-3. The obvious answer to that conundrum is that Aaron Rodgers is still the best QB in the NFL. Game after game that I watch on Sunday Ticket, not to mention college football is decided more than anything else by interceptions. Rodgers simply doesn't throw them. And barring the pass rush getting too extreme, he compensates for various deficiencies like our O Line and our D Line and our pass defenders and to some extent, our pass receivers. And Rodgers and/or LaFleur have the good sense also to take advantage of the good fortune of having a couple of surprisingly decent RBs. And when the run blocking ain't there, it's up to the GOAT to bring us a victory - same ol' same ol'.

[yetisnowman]

Not throwing picks is great, but 5 possesion stretches without a first down is going to lose you a lot of games. Aaron has to be consistent at things other than not turning the ball over. Taking unneccessary sacks to take you out of range serve as turnovers essentially. Not to mention the pick he threw right to the LB that was dropped and near fumble loss on a senseless head first dive for a 5 yd gain on 3rd and 20. His play was poor on Sunday, no other way to slice it.

[texaspackerbacker]

True about the empty possessions, and Rodgers even pissed me off with a couple of those sacks and that dumb move on the 3rd and 20 play. However, overcoming lame-assed line blocking and receivers not always getting open is tough enough; It gets even worse when there is an outbreak of dropped or missed balls and receivers not making the right reads. His play was poor for him on Sunday, to that extent, you are correct. For just about anybody else, it was still fairly decent.

[yetisnowman]

Under 50% comp pct is poor for any nfl qb.

[texaspackerbacker]

Under 50% comp pct is poor for any nfl qb.

the product of drops and necessary throwaways

[Patler]

Under 50% comp pct is poor for any nfl qb.

Don't you get it? Not one incompletion was Rodgers fault.
The WRs should never drop a pass, because Rodgers is still the best QB in the league, and he never makes a mistake.
The WRs should have been precisely where Rodgers threw the ball, because Rodgers is still the best QB in the league, and he never makes a mistake.
Every eligible receiver should get open on every play, because Rodgers is still the best QB in the league, and he never makes a mistake.
The OL should be able to stymie the pass rusher for however long Rodgers needs, because Rodgers is still the best QB in the league, and he never makes a mistake.

[th87]

True about the empty possessions, and Rodgers even pissed me off with a couple of those sacks and that dumb move on the 3rd and 20 play. However, overcoming lame-assed line blocking and receivers not always getting open is tough enough; It gets even worse when there is an outbreak of dropped or missed balls and receivers not making the right reads. His play was poor for him on Sunday, to that extent, you are correct. For just about anybody else, it was still fairly decent.

I see we're now in the late-Favre "receivers ran the wrong route" era.

Rodgers is among the greatest passers of all time. Probably still. But he's nowhere near that as a complete quarterback anymore.

He plays differently now. When you look at games from 2014 and compare them to today, he's no longer reestablishing the pocket and getting his feet set. He's holding, bailing and throwing off his back foot (if he's not getting sacked) as the norm, rather than what once used to be an exception. You could never blitz him, but now teams are basically guaranteed a sack on a third and long blitz. He makes more protection mistakes than I've seen him make, and teams are onto his hard count game.

You can still beat most teams this way; this team is good enough. But I would bet we'd lose 99% of games against teams with strong defenses and decent and up offenses, because Rodgers will take sacks and throwaways until the defense can't hold them off any longer.

And even in his prime, I wonder now if going for chunk plays constantly reduced the time of possession, which made a bad defense look worse due to them tiring out. Perhaps we would've been better off with more methodical drives.

[pbmax]

I just want him to return to the Adams-less offense.

[pbmax]

However, it would help if the receivers returned to earlier season form:

https://www.si.com/nfl/packers/news/analysis-its-time-to-win-its-time-for-kumerow/

1. “It’s no secret, G-Mo has had a couple drops,” coach Matt LaFleur said on Monday, a day after his Packers improved to 11-3 and clinched a playoff spot by beating Chicago 21-13. “I think the one yesterday, that was not an easy catch. I’ve seen him make it before, so I know he can do it.”

2. Marquez Valdes-Scantling’s two-month slump continued with a drop of a 70-yard touchdown pass on the first offensive snap of the game. He wound up playing a season-low seven snaps.

3. In the eight games since Valdes-Scantling’s big performance against Oakland, he’s caught 2-of-11 passes for 11 yards – a miniscule 0.12 yards per pass route, according to Pro Football Focus.

[th87]

Maybe need to get them in rhythm with some easy ones, like how point guards get teammates warmed up.

[pbmax]

due to running the ball.


OK, but red said its a crappy red zone team. Which it's not.


Due to running the ball.


What does running the ball due?


Who said what now?


PB said he was confused due to running the ball.


Oh shit Niners about to lose after spot review!

Ahem.

Rodgers in red zone: 16 TDs, 2 INT

Jones in red zone: 13 TD

Williams in red zone: 1 TD

Rodgers in red zone: 1 TD rushing

So passing better than running by 1 TD. I don't have fumbles for red zone. Someone get to work on the tape.

[MadtownPacker]

I just want him to return to the Adams-less offense.Wow, while addressing the issue you found a way to lay some blame on teams best WR!

Seems that the Adam-less offense is there if Rodgers wants it to be. Since according to Lafleur he lets him decide.

Does anyone have Tonya Harding’s ex-husband’s contact? I want to see if he might go bust Adams in the knee when he is walking into the stadium. That will show him to not be forcing his QB to only see him.

[MadtownPacker]

Ahem.

Rodgers in red zone: 16 TDs, 2 INT

Jones in red zone: 13 TD

Williams in red zone: 1 TD

Rodgers in red zone: 1 TD rushing

So passing better than running by 1 TD. I don't have fumbles for red zone. Someone get to work on the tape.I was actually trying for a Who’s on First routine but failed miserably.

[pbmax]

I was actually trying for a Who’s on First routine but failed miserably.

No, I got you.

But running game has really stepped up. Jones only has one red zone reception for TD.

[pbmax]

Wow, while addressing the issue you found a way to lay some blame on teams best WR!

Seems that the Adam-less offense is there if Rodgers wants it to be. Since according to Lafleur he lets him decide.

Does anyone have Tonya Harding’s ex-husband’s contact? I want to see if he might go bust Adams in the knee when he is walking into the stadium. That will show him to not be forcing his QB to only see him.

Not Adams fault.

[red]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2870320-after-packers-bent-to-his-will-aaron-rodgers-now-needs-to-put-up-or-shut-up?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_campaign=editorial&utm_medium=referral

oouch

this could have been written by me, but was not

its not something we've making up folks because we want to hate

[George Cumby]

Negativist.

[pbmax]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2870320-after-packers-bent-to-his-will-aaron-rodgers-now-needs-to-put-up-or-shut-up?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_campaign=editorial&utm_medium=referral

oouch

this could have been written by me, but was not

its not something we've making up folks because we want to hate

On of my favorite guys. Former Football Outsider writer.

But I don't agree with his read of on script and off script plays. Rodgers has a hand in choosing those script plays. That isn't exactly The Flowers offense; too reductive knowing Rodgers involvement.

But the comparison to Wentz is interesting, he was down to less than Adams at WR. However, the article doesn't interrogate what happens in that scenario with the same receivers for Year 4. Rodgers corp has been getting worse. Wentz will get people back or sing new WR.

However, there is too much evidence that Rodgers wants to run his modified offense or the extended offense to put the inefficiency solely at the feet of the WR or TE.

If you find Aaron Nagler on Twitter, he celebrates the line that the truth lies between critics and cape wearers (kool aid drinkers). However, he then goes on to defend Graham as a reasonable TE option.

[gbgary]

graham's been ok. they had too many other problems to solve to worry about TE. it's not like TE has been a priority target for rodgers or anything. just ok was good enough.

[pbmax]

graham's been ok. they had too many other problems to solve to worry about TE. it's not like TE has been a priority target for rodgers or anything. just ok was good enough.

Third on the team in targets, just 8 behind Jones. That ain't good.

[pbmax]

The other problem with the contention about Graham being serviceable?

Last QB who could not make Graham work in the offense?

Russell Wilson.

[RashanGary]

That article was funny. I'm a Rodgers fan tho. More now than ever

[QBME]

graham's been ok. they had too many other problems to solve to worry about TE. it's not like TE has been a priority target for rodgers or anything. just ok was good enough.

With all due respect, Mr. Jimmy has been a steaming pile of horse/cow/sheep dropping all season. As a poster noted in an earlier thread somewhere, the first time he makes a catch and breaks a tackle will be his first all season.

[texaspackerbacker]

graham's been ok. they had too many other problems to solve to worry about TE. it's not like TE has been a priority target for rodgers or anything. just ok was good enough.

I hardly ever agree with what you say, but you found an acorn of truth here. Graham is mostly a victim of the expectations Packer fans had for him based on his past. And yeah, Aaron Rodgers doesn't make a lot of use of TEs. We really haven't ever had a great TE in Green Bay probably since the Lombardi Era - and even he was a bit less than expected of him.

If we ever did stumble into getting a John Mackey or even a Kittle or Kelce, we probably would use them more. But if the guy isn't both a super blocker and all out tackle breaker, then we're better off with extra WRs on the field.

[Fritz]

I hardly ever agree with what you say, but you found an acorn of truth here. Graham is mostly a victim of the expectations Packer fans had for him based on his past. And yeah, Aaron Rodgers doesn't make a lot of use of TEs. We really haven't ever had a great TE in Green Bay probably since the Lombardi Era - and even he was a bit less than expected of him.

If we ever did stumble into getting a John Mackey or even a Kittle or Kelce, we probably would use them more. But if the guy isn't both a super blocker and all out tackle breaker, then we're better off with extra WRs on the field.



Jimmy Graham is a lumbering tight end who really doesn't want to get hit or hit anyone any more. That's a bad combination. Unfortunately, the alternatives aren't producing much, for reasons I am not sure of.

And Tex, Rodgers had lots of time in the Detroit game when he missed all those long passes. He overthrew most of the game on those, then underthrew late in the game on two or three. He has time, Tex, but no touch.

If he can't play consistently better on Sunday, this team isn't going anywhere but home.

[Bossman641]

Graham sucks. I can't think of a single 50/50 ball he's caught but I can think of about 10 he's missed, mostly by trying to 1 hand them for some reason. For a 6'7" former bball player he has zero aggressiveness going after the ball.

[pbmax]

Graham sucks. I can't think of a single 50/50 ball he's caught but I can think of about 10 he's missed, mostly by trying to 1 hand them for some reason. For a 6'7" former bball player he has zero aggressiveness going after the ball.

He can't, or won't, jump for the ball anymore.

[Deputy Nutz]

don't worry. i reported your personal attack on dan

if you can't take someone elses opinion without getting pissed off and attacking them, then you need to not be on the internet

you need to not be on the site anymore. you and radagast are really turning this place to shit



Hold on one goddamn minute, a personal attack is like going after someone's family or personal life outside of this forum. Calling someone names is perfectly acceptable behavior on a Packer Forum.

[Deputy Nutz]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2870320-after-packers-bent-to-his-will-aaron-rodgers-now-needs-to-put-up-or-shut-up?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_campaign=editorial&utm_medium=referral

oouch

this could have been written by me, but was not

its not something we've making up folks because we want to hate

I have been waiting oh so patiently for this exact moment, when the media and the fans start to turn on Rodgers, similar to the way they turned on Favre. Two different styles and complaints, but they are still turning.

https://images.immediate.co.uk/production/volatile/sites/3/2019/04/Episode_III_Revenge_McDiarmid03-65c5aac.jpg?quality=90&resize=620,413

[pbmax]

With Favre they turned a total of 4 times. Five, if you count all the original disbelievers

1. Too young, too wild, getting hit too much, too risky, too many interceptions (through what, 1994?)
2. Matured into great player with great arm (through 1998)
3. Injured, has lost touch and patience. Can trust as game manager with Sherman's running game. Should trust Bill Schroeder more. (1999 through 2004)
4. Completely done (2005 and 2006)
5. Remarkable comeback, near MVP (2007)
6. Playing retirement games like Elway or Manning did with the draft (2008 ->)

At every one of these turns, Colin Cowherd was right there, riding a wave of conventional wisdom and proclaiming he was smart and brave.

But be careful life long Packer fans, this former Browns fan remembers LOTS of doubters in this state hoping first that Majik would retake the job or worry that Favre would always be a loose cannon. He did not get a converts until that mid-1994 light switch got thrown.

[Zool]

graham's been ok. they had too many other problems to solve to worry about TE. it's not like TE has been a priority target for rodgers or anything. just ok was good enough.

If Graham wasn't the highest paid TE in the league, I would agree.

[pbmax]

graham's been ok. they had too many other problems to solve to worry about TE. it's not like TE has been a priority target for rodgers or anything. just ok was good enough.

I think this point is taken too far. He has had crap to work with at TE since Finley lost his mind and his health in that contract year.

The year he had an actual weapon?



Game Game Rece Rece Rece Rece Rece Rece Rece Rece Rece Rece Tota
Player G GS Tgt Rec Yds Y/R TD Lng R/G Y/G Ctch% Y/Tgt Touch
Jordy Nelson 16 16 152 97 1257 13.0 14 60 6.1 78.6 63.8% 8.3 97
Davante Adams 16 15 121 75 997 13.3 12 66 4.7 62.3 62.0% 8.2 75
Randall Cobb 13 10 84 60 610 10.2 4 47 4.6 46.9 71.4% 7.3 70
Ty Montgomery 15 6 56 44 348 7.9 0 24 2.9 23.2 78.6% 6.2 121
Richard Rodgers 16 6 47 30 271 9.0 2 22 1.9 16.9 63.8% 5.8 30
Jared Cook 10 5 51 30 377 12.6 1 47 3.0 37.7 58.8% 7.4 30
James Starks 9 4 25 19 134 7.1 2 31 2.1 14.9 76.0% 5.4 82
Geronimo Allison 10 2 22 12 202 16.8 2 39 1.2 20.2 54.5% 9.2 12
Jeff Janis 16 1 19 11 93 8.5 1 25 0.7 5.8 57.9% 4.9 13
Aaron Ripkowski 16 8 10 9 46 5.1 1 9 0.6 2.9 90.0% 4.6 43
Justin Perillo 9 1 5 4 35 8.8 0 13 0.4 3.9 80.0% 7.0 4
Eddie Lacy 5 5 7 4 28 7.0 0 17 0.8 5.6 57.1% 4.0 75
Trevor Davis 11 0 7 3 24 8.0 1 9 0.3 2.2 42.9% 3.4 3


Provided by Pro-Football-Reference.com (https://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): View Original Table (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb/2016.htm?sr&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool#rushing_and_receiving)
Generated 1/10/2020.

Jared Cook lost 6 games to his foot injury and probably wasn't himself for a couple games before they shut him down. But if he plays the entire 16, that is 81 targets minimum.

[QBME]

After 38 pages on the board, guess we're gonna find out.

[Fritz]

I turned on Favre after that ridiculous "I'm retired maybe I'm not retired" routine he pulled in 2009.

I've begun to turn on Rodgers because he seems like such a jerk to his teammates. The scowling and eye-rolling and gesturing are ridiculous - and now that his own skills are not longer those of Superman, he doesn't seem to be willing to change his game. Maybe one of the receivers should scowl at him and roll his eyes next time Rodgers overthrows one of them for what should have been a long touchdown.

[mraynrand]

I turned on Favre after that ridiculous "I'm retired maybe I'm not retired" routine he pulled in 2009.

I've begun to turn on Rodgers because he seems like such a jerk to his teammates. The scowling and eye-rolling and gesturing are ridiculous - and now that his own skills are not longer those of Superman, he doesn't seem to be willing to change his game. Maybe one of the receivers should scowl at him and roll his eyes next time Rodgers overthrows one of them for what should have been a long touchdown.

He's like Jack Nicholson in that insane asylum

[George Cumby]

I turned on Favre after that ridiculous "I'm retired maybe I'm not retired" routine he pulled in 2009.

I've begun to turn on Rodgers because he seems like such a jerk to his teammates. The scowling and eye-rolling and gesturing are ridiculous - and now that his own skills are not longer those of Superman, he doesn't seem to be willing to change his game. Maybe one of the receivers should scowl at him and roll his eyes next time Rodgers overthrows one of them for what should have been a long touchdown.

Yes.

[Zool]

I turned on Favre after that ridiculous "I'm retired maybe I'm not retired" routine he pulled in 2009.

I've begun to turn on Rodgers because he seems like such a jerk to his teammates. The scowling and eye-rolling and gesturing are ridiculous - and now that his own skills are not longer those of Superman, he doesn't seem to be willing to change his game. Maybe one of the receivers should scowl at him and roll his eyes next time Rodgers overthrows one of them for what should have been a long touchdown.

I’ve been wondering when he gets moved to the private locker room Darth Favre used his last couple seasons.

[Fritz]

I’ve been wondering when he gets moved to the private locker room Darth Favre used his last couple seasons.

I don't know how much self-insight Rodgers possesses, but you hope he can see the parallels and maybe try to avoid the sour ending of Favre's career.

Or maybe Rodgers will do whatever the hell he wants, knowing that after enough time passes, he'll come back to Lambeau to a rousing ovation, all forgiven.

Damn. Maybe I need to allow my inner arsehole out more often. Let enough time pass, and all seems to be forgiven.