Is Al Harris the next Packer holdout?

[BobDobbs]

"I know my days are numbered here," Harris said as he packed gear into his bag before leaving for the night. "I think this is my free-agent season."

Harris, who has been quiet since summer about his unhappiness over a contract that doesn't expire until after the 2009 season, was asked if he was playing for his future.

"Little of both," he replied after the 31-14 victory over the Arizona Cardinals. "I'm playing to help the team win but. . . ."

Harris knows that his financial window will close long before the six-year, $18.635 million deal that he signed in September 2004 expires. Earlier in the year, Harris and his agent reportedly asked the Packers for two roster bonuses worth a combined $5 million and some Pro Bowl incentives, but they didn't get very far.

The Packers have $7.52 million of space beneath the salary cap and are looking to extend the contract of one or more deserving veteran players before the end of the year. It remains to be seen if they'll give more money to a cornerback that will be 32 in December.

If they don't, it seems a distinct possibility that Harris might follow the lead of cornerback Mike McKenzie and wide receiver Javon Walker and attempt to force a trade.

[BobDobbs]

This is a tough one, no?

Granted the situation isn't particularly pressing right now, because it seems that Al will play out the season as if he's playing for a free agent contract. It is a reality that has to be looked at.

Harris is definitely playing at a high level and is outperforming his contract compared the standard pay scale for cornerbacks. He's 31 and not a guy with tons of speed like Darrell Green or Deion Sanders. So, if he loses a step that could be the end of his productivity.

I think that we could say with relative certainty that the he will holdout, because he won't see a multi-million dollar bonus in 2010.

If you're the Packers what do you do? It would seem that someone is going to get their contract re-worked. And it would be Harris, Green, or maybe Barnett(he's in a free agent year I believe). Green and Harris are similar. Do you want to pay a bunch up front for someone who may not play up to their contract in a few years. This leaves you carrying dead money a couple of years down the road if you have to cut them.

I say pay him. If the story if correct that they want a 5 million dollar bonus plus pro bowl incentives. Can't really begrudge the guy pro bowl incentives, especially because he doesn't put up the interceptions to realislistically make it. And 5 mil prorated over the next three years of his contract is about a 1.7 mill a year bump to the cap. Seems doable avoids a protracted holdout and let's players on the team know that if you produce we will pay you.

Not to mention it took years to replace Mackenzie and there is no one on the roster ready to step up yet.

[the_idle_threat]

Yes, this is a tough one.

On one hand, it's an opportunity to do what many believe should have been done in the Javon Walker situation: Pay your performing players before a conflict arises that results in burned bridges.

On the other hand, Al Harris is not Javon Walker. Walker, before his injury, was an ascending young player with a Pro Bowl future; Harris is an aging pro who plays a speed position, and yet he does not have great speed and is on the wrong side of 30. At times this season and late last season, Harris has already looked like a lesser player than he was a few years back.

Putting any large amount of additional money into Harris is a huge risk with little chance for reward. I think they should make the determination in the offseason, after they have seen what Blackmon and the other young guys can do. If there is truly nothing in the cupboard, then perhaps we kick a few nickels to Harris to keep him happy for another year. IMO.

[The Leaper]

Yeah...it isn't very hard when you look at it.

Thompson didn't pay Walker...who had much more of a gripe to get a pay raise and had a far brighter future ahead of him. There is NO WAY he is going to pay Harris.

It is also very unlikely that Harris is going to find another NFL team willing to trade for him...because of his age. He can whine all he wants, but the bottom line is that every dollar he misses in his current deal with Green Bay is going to be a dollar less he has toward his retirement. He isn't getting another deal from anyone IMO...and Thompson isn't going to let him skip town either.

[Rastak]

Yeah...it isn't very hard when you look at it.

Thompson didn't pay Walker...who had much more of a gripe to get a pay raise and had a far brighter future ahead of him. There is NO WAY he is going to pay Harris.

It is also very unlikely that Harris is going to find another NFL team willing to trade for him...because of his age. He can whine all he wants, but the bottom line is that every dollar he misses in his current deal with Green Bay is going to be a dollar less he has toward his retirement. He isn't getting another deal from anyone IMO...and Thompson isn't going to let him skip town either.


I'd take Harris as a nickel back in a flash. It all depends on what the asking price is. If it's a first or second, you are right, it ain't happening.

[packinpatland]

Pay the man the money, he's worth it, he's proven.

[OS PA]

Yeah...it isn't very hard when you look at it.

Thompson didn't pay Walker...who had much more of a gripe to get a pay raise and had a far brighter future ahead of him. There is NO WAY he is going to pay Harris.

It is also very unlikely that Harris is going to find another NFL team willing to trade for him...because of his age. He can whine all he wants, but the bottom line is that every dollar he misses in his current deal with Green Bay is going to be a dollar less he has toward his retirement. He isn't getting another deal from anyone IMO...and Thompson isn't going to let him skip town either.

Teams may be unwilling to trade for somebody as old as Harris, but why are they so willing to pay them millions upon millions of dollars in free agency?

Didn't Miama trade both of it's aging cornerbacks the offseason before last year for two 2nd round picks? Aren't they still playing in a starter role, and not just playing, but playing well?

The Packers just paid 10 Million dollars for an aging cornerback, Ty Law signs on to a team every year, and he is "over the hill".

I agree with the youth movement that Thompson is trying to set up, but I also believe that we need to keep our key veterans. Veterans are like coaches.

[SkinBasket]

Veterans are like coaches.

Well maybe Al can teach the young kids how to drop easy interceptions in what he thinks is his "contract year." It seems he's developing quite the knack for it after all.

Al is getting old. He plays well, but has breakdowns in every game this season. Holding calls are increasing (see 3rd and 25 vs Arizona), his physicality is decreasing, and I've never seen any evidence he has taken any of the legion of young DBs under his wing to mentor them.

It's not a question of if Harris can contribute to another team or not. I'm sure he can. It's a question of over-paying an aging player who is showing evidence of decline and seems to think he's worth more than he is. Fuck him. Let him see how much the market bears for slow 31 year olds with declining ball skills and a tendency to decide for himself when his contract ends. As Leaper pointed out - he has no leverage, and IMO, he sure as shit hasn't made any argument this season that he should be paid more than he is.

[Scott Campbell]

He has far less leverage than McKenzie or Walker. Ted's been around the block on this once before. It'll be interesting to see what he has learned, and if he decides to change his approach.

I certainly respect the way Harris is going about this so far - far more than those other two clowns.

[Bretsky]

Al Harris has been the best defensive player the last three weeks, hands down. We still are sitting on a lot of unused cap money; I'd have no problem if TT does some sort of restructuring a keep Harris along with a Barnett extension. Crud, put as much as you can on this year's cap as well.

[mraynrand]

The Packers could probably afford to give Harris a contract something like what they gave Woodson. meaning that they could front load some bonus and make the contract effectively a very short one. That way they can keep him happy and keep him for a short time until his skills tail off.

I wouldn't get too upset about the comments. First, he knows he has virtually no leverage. He's getting older and slower, and his value is dropping. So why not try to force the issue a bit after playing some decent games - that's pretty much all he has to go on. Second, the Packers don't have the combined coach/gm thing, so McCarthy can still probably motivate the guy to play without having to be the object of scorn for not ponying up more coin. Third, Harris sounds like a guy who just wants a little love. Dude dropped a TD INT, is getting eclipsed by Woodson because Woodson is Woodson and has made some plays, and Harris also knows he's (Harris) is a pretty good corner in a marginal secondary. I think McCarthy gives him a big ole hug and the Pack moves on.

[run pMc]

Trade him to an AFC team for a low 2nd or early 3rd round pick. Maybe we can send him to HOU so he can rejoin Sherman.

Seriously, he's a good player and it would suck to let him go, but he's on the wrong side of 30 and his contract demands are iffy. Smart teams don't pay 32 year old CB's huge $.

We need upgrades in the secondary anyway. That means we may be looking at replacements or upgrades for Harris, Manuel and Dendy.

[LL2]

:cool:
My first Packer Rat post. Not quite a newbie, to Packer forums. I was the one that provided a lot of eye candy as LambeauLeaper in the jsonline forums. I think the last avatar with a hot babe in a Farve jersey show her booty is what got me the boot. I can’t figure that one because you see hot buttocks in SI swimsuit issues and FHM magazines all the time. Oh, well. I haven’t read the fine print here so not sure if it will happen here.

On to the Harris situation. I agree that we need to see more of Blackmon before deciding what to do with his contract situation. It’s funny that he was happy with it 2 years ago, but now that Woodson is making big bucks he’s unhappy. That’s the way it goes I guess. Woodson is starting to earn his paycheck, but still has a ways to go to earn it all. I think Harris is an asset worth keeping around for a few more years, so if I was TT I would try to find a middle ground a pay him. The Packers need his veteran leadership and the younger guys are quite ready yet.

[MJZiggy]

Nice to see ya LL2. welcome to the forum. I tend to agree with you on Blackmon. If he's as good as they think he will be, Al has a problem. It's gonna be an interesting ride.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Al Harris has been the best defensive player the last three weeks, hands down. We still are sitting on a lot of unused cap money; I'd have no problem if TT does some sort of restructuring a keep Harris along with a Barnett extension. Crud, put as much as you can on this year's cap as well.
Disagree on this. Harris has been burned on several occasions over the last 2 weeks, but drops and poor throws have bailed him out. Woodson has clearly outplayed him lately. Yes, Harris makes good plays, but I don't know if he's worth a large pay increase or not. If this is his FA year, he's not playing like it is.

[GBRulz]

Nice to see you here, LL !

I would like to see them give Barnett an extension before Harris. I'm tired of these guys signing a contract and then bitching about it with multiple years left on it.

At the game yesterday, many fans were bitching when Harris dropped (what looked like) an easy INT. I don't think he is deserving of an extension at this point IMO

[Bretsky]

Al Harris has been the best defensive player the last three weeks, hands down. We still are sitting on a lot of unused cap money; I'd have no problem if TT does some sort of restructuring a keep Harris along with a Barnett extension. Crud, put as much as you can on this year's cap as well.
Disagree on this. Harris has been burned on several occasions over the last 2 weeks, but drops and poor throws have bailed him out. Woodson has clearly outplayed him lately. Yes, Harris makes good plays, but I don't know if he's worth a large pay increase or not. If this is his FA year, he's not playing like it is.


Hmm; I don't remember them. Three weeks ago Harris had Holt the entire game. Last week he had Chambers. Yesterday he had Boldin. He pretty much shut down three of the top 12 or so WR's in the NFL. Well, nobody completely shuts Holt down but he covered him very well that game.

Maybe I'm forgetting some of the missed balls; I do remember some early season roastings but he's really stepped his game up lately. Being at the game yesterday, I think he should really have been called Boldin's blanket.

Woodson has made some big plays as well. And he's probably our best CB overall; but I still think Harris has been the top defensive player in the last three weeks.

[Bretsky]

:cool:
My first Packer Rat post. Not quite a newbie, to Packer forums. I was the one that provided a lot of eye candy as LambeauLeaper in the jsonline forums. I think the last avatar with a hot babe in a Favre jersey show her booty is what got me the boot. I can’t figure that one because you see hot buttocks in SI swimsuit issues and FHM magazines all the time. Oh, well. I haven’t read the fine print here so not sure if it will happen here.

On to the Harris situation. I agree that we need to see more of Blackmon before deciding what to do with his contract situation. It’s funny that he was happy with it 2 years ago, but now that Woodson is making big bucks he’s unhappy. That’s the way it goes I guess. Woodson is starting to earn his paycheck, but still has a ways to go to earn it all. I think Harris is an asset worth keeping around for a few more years, so if I was TT I would try to find a middle ground a pay him. The Packers need his veteran leadership and the younger guys are quite ready yet.

Hey LL2,

Welcome to Packerrats. I loved some of your avatar's over at JS; you were always a solid poster there and I hope you get into the mix here a lot as well.

I think we're pretty flexible on avatar's. And if we needed you to tone the pic down a bit I'm sure we'd PM you and discuss instead of a ban.

I'm one of the mods here so let me know if you have any questions.


Cheers,
Bretsky


B

[cheese_man]

i say we trade him next year on draft day for a second pick and sign nate. he is only 27 next year is better and faster than him. then we should sign df and draft a dt in the second round.

[Willard]

Harris is a solid CB for the Packers. I am in favor of adding incentive driven bonuses to his contract that expires in '09 (?). The Packers certainly don't have to do this. Afterall Harris signed his current contract without a gun to his head. He now realizes he left money on the table and is pushing for a redo.

While the Pack should not feel compelled to cave into the demands of a player who already is under contract, the fact is the Packers continued growth requires stability at the all-important CB position until suitable replacements can be found. During training camp I was hopeful that Carroll, Hawkins, and Blackmon would create an infusion of young talent at CB. Now only Blackmon remains on the roster and he remains only an intriguing question mark.

The Pack would be using its cap wisely by committing $5M in performance-based bonuses over the next 3 years to lock-up Al Harris. Compared to the cost of obtaining proven FA talent, and considering the poor track record of drafting a shutdown CB, this is money well spent. With Blackmon, and a day1 CB draft pick in '07 the Pack should be in better shape to replace Harris and Woodson in '08 or '09 when their deals run out. Trying to replace Harris before this is far too risky!

[esoxx]

It's bad form to complain about your "situation" after a game. He's harshing the buzz of a fabulous team win with his remarks. He made his point missing the OTA's. It's no secret he wants his deal re-worked. TT knows this. Bringing it up in the locker room after a rousing victory is lame, but probably more a sign of "todays" NFL than anything. I don't like the trend.

BTW, Harris has no leverage given his age and length of time left on the contract. If he sits out, he's cutting his own throat. He should have given more consideration to his "window" and his skill set before inking that deal in '04.

[Bossman641]

If all Harris wants is bonus money that is dependent upon making the Pro Bowl then go ahead and give it to him. He doesn't make enough picks to get voted in as a Pro Bowler anyways.

In addition, throw him a little bonus money as long as it's under this year's cap. If he's asking for much more than that, or a complete reworking of ius contract, forget about it.

[SudsMcBucky]

I second the bonus option. This way, he is actually getting paid for the way he performs and isn't if his output slacks in future years. Paying him a good bonus for pro bowls is a win-win. He wins with the money and the Pack wins, because it means he will have perfomed at a level where coaches and players think he is one of the top corners in the league, even if he were invited due to injuries to corners originally voted in.

[Tarlam!]

Sounds to me like he wants out of GB. Not sure if TT will want to pay him enough to keep him, but, I don't get the vibes that Harris is a happy camper.

[MadtownPacker]

:cool:
My first Packer Rat post. Not quite a newbie, to Packer forums. I was the one that provided a lot of eye candy as LambeauLeaper in the jsonline forums. I think the last avatar with a hot babe in a Favre jersey show her booty is what got me the boot. I can’t figure that one because you see hot buttocks in SI swimsuit issues and FHM magazines all the time. Oh, well. I haven’t read the fine print here so not sure if it will happen here.

Welcome to PR!

That was a great pic, who is that chica??

[Partial]

:cool:
My first Packer Rat post. Not quite a newbie, to Packer forums. I was the one that provided a lot of eye candy as LambeauLeaper in the jsonline forums. I think the last avatar with a hot babe in a Favre jersey show her booty is what got me the boot. I can’t figure that one because you see hot buttocks in SI swimsuit issues and FHM magazines all the time. Oh, well. I haven’t read the fine print here so not sure if it will happen here.

On to the Harris situation. I agree that we need to see more of Blackmon before deciding what to do with his contract situation. It’s funny that he was happy with it 2 years ago, but now that Woodson is making big bucks he’s unhappy. That’s the way it goes I guess. Woodson is starting to earn his paycheck, but still has a ways to go to earn it all. I think Harris is an asset worth keeping around for a few more years, so if I was TT I would try to find a middle ground a pay him. The Packers need his veteran leadership and the younger guys are quite ready yet.

Welcome to the boards!

[pittstang5]

I'm tired of whinny Players - Mac, Walker, now it seems Harris wants to start some crap. Hell! The Season ain't even over yet and it sounds like he's starting crap.

Harris just has too many years left and is too old to have a deal re-worked. I'd be very surprised if TT gave him anything. Quite frankly, if Harris doesn't want to play for the Pack....let him sit.

[SkinBasket]

The Pack would be using its cap wisely by committing $5M in performance-based bonuses over the next 3 years to lock-up Al Harris.

That's just the thing. He is "locked up." What's he going to do if the Packers don't grant his demands? Threaten to sit out until '09?

[Bretsky]

He could do what Mike McKenzie and Javon Walker did.

[run pMc]

I can understand his beef -- DD got an extension, Woodson got overpaid.

HOWEVER

In a perfect world, Harris would shut up and play.

In a semi-perfect world, TT and Harris would work something out.

Ultimatums and stupid talk like "I'm a free agent after this year" aren't negotiation, and not a good stance to take, so I'm not optimistic.

That said, an extension would be a mistake. After this season, Harris will be 32 and Woodson 30, so GB's starting CB's are getting old. Roy Williams and Troy Williamson will start looking REAL fast if GB doesn't do something. Reworking the contract with additional incentives or a roster bonus and reducing the salary might work out...as usual, it depends on the details.

There's also the issue of the message it sends the players...

[Bretsky]

I can understand his beef -- DD got an extension, Woodson got overpaid.

HOWEVER

In a perfect world, Harris would shut up and play.

In a semi-perfect world, TT and Harris would work something out.

Ultimatums and stupid talk like "I'm a free agent after this year" aren't negotiation, and not a good stance to take, so I'm not optimistic.

That said, an extension would be a mistake. After this season, Harris will be 32 and Woodson 30, so GB's starting CB's are getting old. Roy Williams and Troy Williamson will start looking REAL fast if GB doesn't do something. Reworking the contract with additional incentives or a roster bonus and reducing the salary might work out...as usual, it depends on the details.

There's also the issue of the message it sends the players...


I'm really hoping for the semi perfect world; then again that's what I was hoping for with Walker as well.

[SkinBasket]

He could do what Mike McKenzie and Javon Walker did.

I don't think he can. They were young enough to actually sit out a full season, maybe even two, and still play one day. Al's clock is past midnight and still ticking.

[Bretsky]

He could do what Mike McKenzie and Javon Walker did.

I don't think he can. They were young enough to actually sit out a full season, maybe even two, and still play one day. Al's clock is past midnight and still ticking.


What Al lacks is the leverage these other guys have. But Al and his agent could still make things another very ugly situation in Green Bay.

Another thing Al has going for him is past history; this crap has happened twice in the past couple of years. Having round three against the player will reflect bad on GB in the national media.........with other players...........whether that is fair or not.

I don't think Al will be asking for the world and I'll get bashed for this, but I hope TT doesn't treat Harris like he did Walker.........(from what we know...aka...eventually ingnoring his requests).

I hope if Harris is reasonable, TT will consider working some nice bonuses in there going forward.

We need some stability while we find youth to replace the quality vets we have; Harris is one of those quality vets.

B

[Patler]

Harris has little bargaining power:

His contract runs through the 2009 season, at which time he will not command a big contract because of age. He can't threaten to play the minimal number of games each year and expect to even make up the almost two years worth of salaries he would miss sitting out 10 games each year for 3 years.

His play has been inconsistent the last 10 games or so, and his penalties have increased since mid-season last year, both indicating a player that might be starting to decline. As a result, his trade value is small, and the Packers probably will never be offered enough to make the trade.

He is likely to remain a Packer, but perhaps an unhappy one, until the Packers feel they have someone as good or better to replace him with.

[The Leaper]

Why anyone wants to spend one dollar more on Harris is beyond me. What is he going to do? He can either pack it up and retire...meaning he doesn't earn one more penny...or he can suck it up and play out his current deal.

No NFL team is going to give Green Bay anything more than a second day draft pick for an aging CB who really doesn't fit in most defensive schemes outside of Green Bay. Green Bay is not going to give up Harris for a second day draft pick...seeing that he currently is a starting CB.

Harris has ZERO leverage. Unlike Walker, his contract is not coming up for renewal in a year or two. Unlike McKenzie, he isn't a complete turd that will sacrifice his personal reputation to get out of town. Harris knew FULL WELL when he signed his current deal that the potential for him to outplay it existed. However, Al chose to take the money and run and capitalize on McKenzie skipping town. Now, he doesn't have a leg to stand on.

It is easy for Al to talk big now. It will be much harder for him next August to keep up that banter...when the loss of a fat paycheck and the prospect of retirement are staring him in the face.

Don't pay this guy one more penny. We were willing to give him a chance as a starter...that should earn us enough gratitude for Al to keep his trap shut and play.

That...or learn some return skills and take Woodson's punt return job away from him so you can actually have a gripe for being paid less.

[BobDobbs]

It seems like the consensus is not to pay Harris. It's true that he doesn't have much leverage. I think the most incriminating strike against him is the ranking of the pass defense. Especially with the amount of sacks we have been generating.

One thing is obvious and should be taken ino account. Al Harris is our #1 DB, he consistently plays the other team's best wide receiver. So, until Woodson starts lining up against Boldin, Chambers, Roy Williams, etc... he is not our best cover corner in the coaches estimation.

I understood the team's position during the Javon Walker blowup. But, now I really wonder if it would have been that bad to have Javon on the team playing with a raise. Would mutiny truly have broken out across the roster? And, if they throw Harris a bit of a bonus would it not lock him in to play ball for the duration of his career?

[GrnBay007]

Can't they just find a way to give him a lil "keep em happy" money without re-doing his contract?

C'mon, this is the NFL. It takes money to inspire. :razz:

[Bretsky]

I understood the team's position during the Javon Walker blowup. But, now I really wonder if it would have been that bad to have Javon on the team playing with a raise. Would mutiny truly have broken out across the roster? And, if they throw Harris a bit of a bonus would it not lock him in to play ball for the duration of his career?


Great post and spot on regarding both Walker and Harris.

[GBRulz]

I can't remember, was Harris griping about his contract even before the Packers signed Woodson?

[BobDobbs]

No he wasn't. That's the truly bad form of this situation. When Harris received his extension Mackenzie was in the midst of his contract dispute. When Sherman gave Harris a raise instead of Big Mac it signaled the end, and it seemed like it was an 'F--- You' move by Sherman.

Now, Woodson comes in during a favorable cap year and fills a spot that has been basically vacant since #34 left for New Orleans. Woodson was in a free agent year coming off being franchised, great situation for him. He got paid. Harris got jealous.

[MadtownPacker]

Harris should get a lil love. Working on the opponents #1 WR every week aint no joke and that last place passing D aint on him.

He has been holding down superstar WRs like Holt and Boldin to minimal yardage without little to no help. This would be a perfect way to dismiss the bad vibes MM and walker created while also rewarding a hard worker.

[mmmdk]

How about free brats for the brat (Harris)?