Corey Williams

[Bretsky]

Corey Williams is bigger than Johnny Jolly.

Jolly was the starter only because he was the one selected for their base defense. When both were healthy, Williams actually played more plays per game than Jolly did. The knock on Jolly coming out of college was that he he was active, disruptive and got himself in position to make plays...but then did not make them. In a defense designed to occupy blockers with d-linemen to free up linebackers to make plays, these are good attributes. That is why Jolly played in the base defense. But he will never give the pass rush that Williams does.

Jolly was drafted lower than he might of been because he was injured as a Senior. Now he has missed 16 of 32 regular season games due to injury and finished both pro seasons on IR.

Williams has not been injured and is a consistent performer, with 7 sacks and 26 solo tackles in both 2006 and 2007. Williams can also play and has played DE for the Packers.

If I had to pick only one, and money was not a consideration, I would take Williams. DTs who can generate a pass rush are just as valuable as a specialist as the KGB type DE who can rush from the outside. Even if they don't get there, they prevent the QB from stepping up in the pocket. It keeps the QB in place for a hurry or sack by the DE. The best way to avoid the rush of Kampman or KGB is for the QB to step up and throw. Williams makes that more difficult even when he was not getting sacks, and if the QB does step up, Williams gets him.

If Williams leaves, which I think is likely, KGB and Kampman will have more trouble getting sacks unless another DT can force things up the middle as Williams has.

We had good debates about how much KGB is worth as a non-starter. It is even a more difficult question with Williams, who played more snaps per game than Jolly even when Jolly was starting, and who is a much more versatile player then KGB. If Jenkins or Kampman were to go out with a long injury, I would not be surprised to see Williams at DE in a base alignment.

Great points from the voice of reason......this time

[TennesseePackerBacker]

Heard an interview with Larry McCarren with Harrell and Harrell stated that he won't be leaving GB all offseason and he will be living in then weight room. He also stated that next season fans should expect a lot out of him.

That is GREAT news if it's true

He was a gym warrior during his days at UT, expecting anything less than that would be silly. Harrell is really a lucky player, going from a storied program like the University of Tennessee to probably the most storied program in the NFL.

He didn't go to the UFL or the Eagles, but he is following in the footsteps of his favorite player, and my favorite player.

[RashanGary]

Heard an interview with Larry McCarren with Harrell and Harrell stated that he won't be leaving GB all offseason and he will be living in then weight room. He also stated that next season fans should expect a lot out of him.

Yep, that's part of why I believe he'll take off. He's supposed to be a very hard worker, a guy who has a knack for learning and a guy who loves football. On top of that, he kicked ass in college.

I think he's going to shut a lot of people up next year.

[Deputy Nutz]

I'm excited to see both Harrell and Jolly next year. I think they are going to be the future at DT with Pickett fading into being the best backup DT in the league.

Come on, our defense is totally different when Pickett is in there. Sure Pickett might be a back up in 3 or 4 years, but for now and the future Green Bay is depend on his ability to stuff the middle of the defense and eat up blockers, and then, here is the key, make tackles. If he did better against the pass he would be an All-Pro caliber player, but I still rarely see a two gap tackle shed blockers the way he does and cave in the middle of the offensive line to make the tackle.

His last year in Saint Louis he had over 70 tackles, that is ridiculous for an interior linemen.

This system is based on rotation, if the Packers don't have 4 or 5 good defensive tackles at any point in the season the defense is going to suffer. I am of the opinion that you simply can't have enough defensive tackles or defensive backs that can play good football. The Packers have the cap room, and I think it is important that they lock up a young athletic defensive tackle for the next four or five years.

It would be different if Harrell came in from day one and became a legit starter and showed consistent flashes of dominance, but he hasn't. He has been "ok" in the last part of the season. He still gets sloppy with his technique and his pad level gets way to high, but that is expected out of a player that missed most of the off season and then got hurt midway through the season. So far he hasn't shown or proved that he is special and deserving of being a starter or playing ahead of Williams. That is way I would like to sway on the safe side and resign Williams. Harrell could still be a bust.

I am sure that if Thompson says good bye to Williams he will draft at least one if not two defensive tackles that no one has heard of to hedge his bets against Harrell panning out. The nice thing about this system in regards to defensive tackles is that they don't have to be a four star player, they just have to be good at something, carve out a niche' if you will, they need to be a good pass rusher from the middle, or they need to hold the point of attack, take on double teams, stop the run, what have you, they don't need to be a complete 5 tool player. It is that type of selection that brings you guys like Johnny Jolly, and Muir, and reasons why you keep guys like Collin Cole around.

[Patler]

Before we tie the Packers future to Jolly and Harrell, they should actually produce. Both show some ability, and Jolly has produced perhaps more than Harrell to date, but Jolly's injury history is of even more concern than Harrell's. When you end your first two seasons on IR, following an injured college season, it's hard to be viewed as more than a small piece of the puzzle.

Pickett is reliable and unsung. Only when he was out was his true value appreciated. He is a long, long way from being displaced as the most critical tackle in the rotation.

[vince]

Corey Williams is bigger than Johnny Jolly.

Jolly was the starter only because he was the one selected for their base defense. When both were healthy, Williams actually played more plays per game than Jolly did. The knock on Jolly coming out of college was that he he was active, disruptive and got himself in position to make plays...but then did not make them. In a defense designed to occupy blockers with d-linemen to free up linebackers to make plays, these are good attributes. That is why Jolly played in the base defense. But he will never give the pass rush that Williams does.

Jolly was drafted lower than he might of been because he was injured as a Senior. Now he has missed 16 of 32 regular season games due to injury and finished both pro seasons on IR.

Williams has not been injured and is a consistent performer, with 7 sacks and 26 solo tackles in both 2006 and 2007. Williams can also play and has played DE for the Packers.

If I had to pick only one, and money was not a consideration, I would take Williams. DTs who can generate a pass rush are just as valuable as a specialist as the KGB type DE who can rush from the outside. Even if they don't get there, they prevent the QB from stepping up in the pocket. It keeps the QB in place for a hurry or sack by the DE. The best way to avoid the rush of Kampman or KGB is for the QB to step up and throw. Williams makes that more difficult even when he was not getting sacks, and if the QB does step up, Williams gets him.

If Williams leaves, which I think is likely, KGB and Kampman will have more trouble getting sacks unless another DT can force things up the middle as Williams has.

We had good debates about how much KGB is worth as a non-starter. It is even a more difficult question with Williams, who played more snaps per game than Jolly even when Jolly was starting, and who is a much more versatile player then KGB. If Jenkins or Kampman were to go out with a long injury, I would not be surprised to see Williams at DE in a base alignment.

I'd take Jolly. Regardless of their size (which 1" and 1 lb. is irrelevant btw), Jolly is stronger and more powerful in fulfilling his responsibilities against the run. Further, Jolly demonstrated a propensity to knock a lot of balls down versus the pass. I couldn't find the statistics, but I know he's had a number of passes defensed this year before someone rolled on his shoulder.

Also, I'm finding conflicting information than you are stated here regarding Jolly's injury history.

Jolly did not finish the season last year on IR, nor did I find mention of the injury you cite his Senior year on college. If he was injured, he played through it.

This is from Packers.com

2006 Season

Sixth-round pick played in six games and was inactive for the other 10
Was inactive for a pair of five-game stretches, sandwiched around two games played in Weeks 7-8
Then played in each of the final four contests (the Packers were 6-0 with him in uniform)
Played from scrimmage in five games (73 snaps), collecting four tackles (three solo) and breaking up one pass
Explosive to the ball, earned his way into the Packers' defensive line rotation with a solid preseason, joining former Texas A&M teammate Montgomery on the defensive line
Played his first pro contest, at Miami (Oct. 22), and saw 20 plays on defense, coming away with his first career tackle
The following week vs. Arizona (Oct. 29), made a solo tackle and played a season-high 21 snaps
Also played on defense at San Francisco (Dec. 10), vs. Detroit (Dec. 17) and at Chicago (Dec. 31); had a pass defensed and two stops in Bears game

He did not finish last year on IR.

Regarding his Senior year in college...

College

Played 47 games for Texas A&M, including 35 starts (in succession to close his career), recording 230 tackles (111 solo), 6½ sacks, 28 tackles for loss and 16 pass deflections
As a senior, named All-Big 12 honorable mention by the league's coaches
Started all 11 games at left defensive tackle, finishing third on team with 64 tackles (20 solo), including 4½ sacks and 11½ tackles for loss
Recorded a season-high 11 tackles, including two sacks and three stops for loss, vs. Baylor (Oct. 1)In collegiate finale vs. Texas (Nov. 25), combined with linemate Michael Bennett to sack QB Vince Young for 12-yard loss
Coming off a big sophomore season led to a lot of double teams and a drop in statistics as a junior, but still earned second-team All-Big 12 honors from the Dallas Morning News and honorable mention by league coaches and Associated Press
Started all 12 games at left defensive tackle, finishing with 45 tackles (18 solo), including 26 stops in the team's last four games
Had season-high eight tackles at Texas (Nov. 26) and had two of his 3½ tackles for loss vs. Tennessee in Cotton Bowl (Jan. 1, 2005)
Had four of his six pass deflections vs. Oklahoma (Nov. 6) and Heisman Trophy-winning QB Jason White
As a sophomore, moved into the starting lineup for good in season opener and became the Aggies' defensive MVP
Recorded a career-high 95 tackles, including 54 solo and 12 tackles resulting in third-down stops
Also had 12 tackles for loss, including two sacks vs. Baylor (Oct. 11), and deflected eight passes
Posted a career-high 13 tackles at Oklahoma (Nov. 8) and vs. Texas (Nov. 28)
As a true freshman and reserve defensive tackle, appeared in 12 games and made 26 tackles (19 solo) with one stop for loss
Also caused and recovered a fumble
Had a season-high five tackles vs. Missouri (Nov. 16) and blocked a field goal, one of two blocks on the season
Majored in agriculture and life science

[Deputy Nutz]

He sprained his ankle in mid season his senior year, played through it, and then in the off season had problems with the same ankle and I believe he missed the combine and pushed back his personal workout which scouts didn't look to fondly on.

[vince]

He sprained his ankle in mid season his senior year, played through it, and then in the off season had problems with the same ankle and I believe he missed the combine and pushed back his personal workout which scouts didn't look to fondly on.

Thanks Nutz. I guess the rest of the league's scouts' aversion is Ted Thompson's and the Green Bay Packers' gain.

The fact that he played through the injury speaks to his toughness.

[Partial]

Heard an interview with Larry McCarren with Harrell and Harrell stated that he won't be leaving GB all offseason and he will be living in then weight room. He also stated that next season fans should expect a lot out of him.

That is what I like to hear.

[Patler]

I'd take Jolly. Regardless of their size (which 1" and 1 lb. is irrelevant btw), Jolly is stronger and more powerful in fulfilling his responsibilities against the run. Further, Jolly demonstrated a propensity to knock a lot of balls down versus the pass. I couldn't find the statistics, but I know he's had a number of passes defensed this year before someone rolled on his shoulder.

Also, I'm finding conflicting information than you are stated here regarding Jolly's injury history.

Jolly did not finish the season last year on IR, nor did I find mention of the injury you cite his Senior year on college. If he was injured, he played through it.

He did not finish last year on IR.

Vince; I agree the size difference is minimal. I only mentioned it because some have said they would take Jolly because he was bigger and more versatile. I am of the exact opposite opinion in both regards. Williams is bigger and is much more versatile. I don't look at Jolly as being versatile at at all.

You are right about Jolly in 2006. For some reason I thought he was IR'ed last year, and when I saw the NFL list him as playing only 6 games I jumped to a conclusion that my recollection was correct. Was he injured but carried on the roster for a while in 2006, like Blackmon this year? For some reason I just remember him as being unavailable for a stretch last year. I could be wrong though. Kenderick Allen went out early. Perhaps that is what I was thinking of.

Regarding his college career, I didn't mean to imply that he was out. But he was injured. I read a lot of articles about him after he was drafted. Everyone universally said he had physical talent, but expressed concern about how he used it. I remember one evaluation that said he routinely gets in position, "but then can't seem to find the ball to make the play" Many attributed it to several injuries his last year. He played through them, however. I was and remain quite interested in him, because most said he had the physical talent to be drafted much higher than he was.

I don't dislike Jolly. I just don't see him offering what Williams does, nor for that matter does Williams offer the same things as Jolly. But, I think Williams pass rush abilities are more difficult to find in a DT. I kind of expect Harrell to be more like Jolly than he will be like Williams. I would like to keep both Williams and Jolly, because combined they make a very complete DT. The key is to get them in the games in the right situations.

[Packers4Glory]

someone please tell me. Since we are so afraid to sign guys in free agency who costs more than a bag of balls...and we aren't going to lock up one of our own guys we developed and has become a pretty vital part of our line...what in the hell are we going to spend our money on?

[vince]

I'd take Jolly. Regardless of their size (which 1" and 1 lb. is irrelevant btw), Jolly is stronger and more powerful in fulfilling his responsibilities against the run. Further, Jolly demonstrated a propensity to knock a lot of balls down versus the pass. I couldn't find the statistics, but I know he's had a number of passes defensed this year before someone rolled on his shoulder.

Also, I'm finding conflicting information than you are stated here regarding Jolly's injury history.

Jolly did not finish the season last year on IR, nor did I find mention of the injury you cite his Senior year on college. If he was injured, he played through it.

He did not finish last year on IR.

Vince; I agree the size difference is minimal. I only mentioned it because some have said they would take Jolly because he was bigger and more versatile. I am of the exact opposite opinion in both regards. Williams is bigger and is much more versatile. I don't look at Jolly as being versatile at at all.

You are right about Jolly in 2006. For some reason I thought he was IR'ed last year, and when I saw the NFL list him as playing only 6 games I jumped to a conclusion that my recollection was correct. Was he injured but carried on the roster for a while in 2006, like Blackmon this year? For some reason I just remember him as being unavailable for a stretch last year. I could be wrong though. Kenderick Allen went out early. Perhaps that is what I was thinking of.

Regarding his college career, I didn't mean to imply that he was out. But he was injured. I read a lot of articles about him after he was drafted. Everyone universally said he had physical talent, but expressed concern about how he used it. I remember one evaluation that said he routinely gets in position, "but then can't seem to find the ball to make the play" Many attributed it to several injuries his last year. He played through them, however. I was and remain quite interested in him, because most said he had the physical talent to be drafted much higher than he was.

I don't dislike Jolly. I just don't see him offering what Williams does, nor for that matter does Williams offer the same things as Jolly. But, I think Williams pass rush abilities are more difficult to find in a DT. I kind of expect Harrell to be more like Jolly than he will be like Williams. I would like to keep both Williams and Jolly, because combined they make a very complete DT. The key is to get them in the games in the right situations.

I don't dislike Williams either. I do think that stopping the run takes precedence in our DT's though... I agree with you on keeping them both, but I think that'll be very difficult to do.

[vince]

Deleted post. For some reason, it reposted below.

[HarveyWallbangers]

someone please tell me. Since we are so afraid to sign guys in free agency who costs more than a bag of balls...and we aren't going to lock up one of our own guys we developed and has become a pretty vital part of our line...what in the hell are we going to spend our money on?

Thompson resigns his own players. You can't sign them all, and we have a ton of guys that will be getting new contracts within a couple of years. I doubt he can get a guy like Corey Williams to sign a 1yr or 2yr contract, so he has to make sure it makes sense. They aren't always going to have a ton of money and few players to resign.

It all depends on whether Thompson thinks Williams is a vital part of the future or somebody that can be replaced by guys on the roster.

[vince]

someone please tell me. Since we are so afraid to sign guys in free agency who costs more than a bag of balls...and we aren't going to lock up one of our own guys we developed and has become a pretty vital part of our line...what in the hell are we going to spend our money on?

Here is the list of when Packer player contracts come due...

2007
Ryan Krause
Frank Walker
Corey Williams
Tracy* White
Rob* Davis
Vernand Morency
Collin Cole
Atari Bigby
Ruvell Martin
John Kuhn
Ryan Grant
Tyson* Walter
Noah Herron
Carlyle Holiday
Tory Humphrey
Tony Palmer

2008
Mark Tauscher
Brady Poppinga
Michael Montgomery
Jon Ryan
Jason Hunter
Charlie Peprah
Jarrett Bush
Koren Robinson
Daniel Muir
Tramon Williams
Shaun Bodiford
Ryan Powdrell
David Lonie

2009
Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila
Chad Clifton
Aaron Kampman
Ryan Pickett
Aaron Rodgers
Nick Collins
Daryn Colledge
Greg Jennings
Jason Spitz
Junius Coston
Will Blackmon
Tony Moll
Johnny Jolly
Abdul Hodge
Tyrone Culver

2010
Brett Favre
Donald Driver
Cullen Jenkins
Brandon Jackson
James Jones
Aaron Rouse
Allan Barbre
Korey Hall
Desmond Bishop
Mason Crosby
DeShawn Wynn

2011
Al Harris
A.J. Hawk
Bubba Franks
Scott Wells
Donald Lee

2012
Nick Barnett
Charles Woodson
Justin Harrell

There are at least 20 guys I'd consider important signings in the next 2 years (through 2009), including 4/5ths of the starting offensive line, and two huge playmakers in Greg Jennings and Ryan Grant, 1/2 of the starting defensive line - probably the two best (Kampman and Pickett), starting strongside LB, both starting safeties, nickel back, and many contributors.

Most all of them will be expecting hefty raises.