THE TAG AND IT'S VALUE

[MJZiggy]

I don't think 99 is much above average.

You might be right; but teams lock up their own these days. I bet he'll be in the top 4 DT's available. And will TT spend the money and take a chance on one better

And even if he'd want to, would we land him ?

Seems to me that a team that was 3 pts. from the Super Bowl shouldn't have any difficulty in trying to bring in any player it wishes especially if a player sees himself as skilled enough to be the one to push the team over the edge and into the big game. How may players do you know don't see themselves that way?

[Patler]

lOnce Jolly was injured, 99 pretty much stepped in for him the last 6 games and got the bulk of the snaps. In those last 6 games, 99 wouldn't be able to play fresh as he had in the past because of the DL rotation and his true toughness and ability to beat the OL on a down to down basis could be looked at. His stats for the last 6 regular season games and for the 2 playoff games were 14 tackles and 1 sack. IMO, when he was needed to stand tall and be a force, those stats tell me he definitely came up short and he shouldn't be rewarded with a one year deal worth 6.5 million. Imo, when he is playing on a different team next year, he'll be a 3-5 sack DT.

I agree he is not a $6.5 million dollar man.
However, I think he is a bit above "average" too.
As with many topics on here, most posts seem to gravitate to the extremes. I think Williams is really somewhere in between. He is not a franchise tag candidate, but he is more than simply a run-of-the-mill tackle, too.

None of the Packer DTs would likely excel in situations where they are asked to play too many snaps; not Pickett, not Jolly, not Williams or Harrell or Cole. The piece of the puzzle that Williams provides is a bit unusual among the DTs on the roster, and perhaps even around the league; so his piece might be harder to fill with someone else.

It wasn't just Williams pass rush that tailed off at the end of the year. The entire line went into the tank. Kampman had 3 sacks in the last 7 games he played in (not counting the last game he didn't play). KGB had 1 in his last 7 games. Jenkins did nothing all year in the pass rush. I think this is more evidence that the line as a whole was more valuable than the sum of its individual parts, and when several parts got hurt the performance of the entire line suffered.

Williams might very well be more valuable to the Packers DL than to many others in which he is expected to be something that he isn't.

In all honesty, I doubt he will be back in GB next year. I also think he might be more difficult to replace in the rotation than we think he will be.

[Bretsky]

I don't think 99 is much above average.

You might be right; but teams lock up their own these days. I bet he'll be in the top 4 DT's available. And will TT spend the money and take a chance on one better

And even if he'd want to, would we land him ?

Your presumption taht the only way to get better is to spend more money on each position is just out of hand, Bretsky. There are better ways than blowing wads of cash (like being better at evaluating talent and having an approach that gives more oppertunities to succeed than the next guy),

That post was a string related to Bulldog posting "I hope we let CW go and brings in another DL to replace him" about two posts before if you followed our comments. I presumed nothing; I assumed Bulldog didn't mean he wanted TT to let CW go and bring in a worse replacement. But maybe that's what he did want.

[b bulldog]

B, your first presumption was correct

[Bretsky]

B, your first presumption was correct

Assumption; presumption..whatever But I did figure you wanted an upgrade from CW

[RashanGary]

Muir acctually showed a pretty explosive first step in the Dallas game. He got a nice pressure by blowing off the snap into the Guard/Tackle gap. That is the exact kind of thing Williams does well.

Not to say Muir is as good as a 14 sack in two year DT, but there is nothing to say he isn't yet either.


We'll see how the whole thing goes. I still think 6 mil for one year is a lot better than 6 mil per year for 5 years and we're the only team in the league who has the first option, the other teams have the latter option only so the franchise should be considered. It wouldn't suprise me if Thompson uses that tag.

[CaliforniaCheez]

There are several teams with less talent that will offer Williams a contract worth 4 million a year or more. The Packers may offer 3.

Unfortunately, he is more valuable to other teams than he is to the Packers.

Williams is in the prime of his career. The Falcons, 49'ers, or Rams will significantly outbid the Packers.

[RashanGary]

There is one bit of hope I have on the Williams front and that is he played so poorly when put in a starters role. It only takes one team to think the real Williams is the guy who took advantage of a perfect situation to jack up the price, but the way he played down the strech gives hope that all of those teams have a similar opinion.

I'm not counting on it though. A team in need of a DT will put the blinders on and forget the bad so they can get what they hope is their answer.

[Deputy Nutz]

I don't think 99 is much above average.

You really have to understand his sack numbers to really appreciate this statement. his sack totals went up as soon as Aaron Kampman's sack totals rose. Most of the time he didn't get these sacks by beating the guard, center combo and hustling past everyone else to the QB, he usually got a decent rush up the middle then someone else forced the QB up into the pocket. It is great that he was there to make the play, but his ability to create for himself or for others is average.

[b bulldog]

See my above post about 99 when he was counted on to make plays. 1 sack and 14 tackles in 8 games, sorry but that is not real good imo for 6.5 next season. I agree with you Nutz.

[cpk1994]

I don't think 99 is much above average.

You might be right; but teams lock up their own these days. I bet he'll be in the top 4 DT's available. And will TT spend the money and take a chance on one better

And even if he'd want to, would we land him ?

Seems to me that a team that was 3 pts. from the Super Bowl shouldn't have any difficulty in trying to bring in any player it wishes especially if a player sees himself as skilled enough to be the one to push the team over the edge and into the big game. How may players do you know don't see themselves that way?

But that also hinges on Brett Favre's decision to retire or not.

[Patler]

You really have to understand his sack numbers to really appreciate this statement. his sack totals went up as soon as Aaron Kampman's sack totals rose. Most of the time he didn't get these sacks by beating the guard, center combo and hustling past everyone else to the QB, he usually got a decent rush up the middle then someone else forced the QB up into the pocket. It is great that he was there to make the play, but his ability to create for himself or for others is average.

You could just as well argue that Kampman's numbers didn't go up until Williams started playing regularly at DT on passing downs. The two go hand in hand. DEs don't get as many sacks without the pocket being pushed up the middle, otherwise the QB simply steps up and makes the throw. DTs don't get as many sacks if the QB can simply drift away from the pressure from the DTs. You need both.

[Deputy Nutz]

You really have to understand his sack numbers to really appreciate this statement. his sack totals went up as soon as Aaron Kampman's sack totals rose. Most of the time he didn't get these sacks by beating the guard, center combo and hustling past everyone else to the QB, he usually got a decent rush up the middle then someone else forced the QB up into the pocket. It is great that he was there to make the play, but his ability to create for himself or for others is average.

You could just as well argue that Kampman's numbers didn't go up until Williams started playing regularly at DT on passing downs. The two go hand in hand. DEs don't get as many sacks without the pocket being pushed up the middle, otherwise the QB simply steps up and makes the throw. DTs don't get as many sacks if the QB can simply drift away from the pressure from the DTs. You need both.

Prove it. Kampman gets a lot of his snaps with a good push and jump off the ball. He takes really good angles towards the QB that doesn't necessarily need a push up the middle. KGB get a lot of his sacks with speed off the line of scrimmage. His sacks rarely come from the pocket collapsing up the middle.

[Patler]

You really have to understand his sack numbers to really appreciate this statement. his sack totals went up as soon as Aaron Kampman's sack totals rose. Most of the time he didn't get these sacks by beating the guard, center combo and hustling past everyone else to the QB, he usually got a decent rush up the middle then someone else forced the QB up into the pocket. It is great that he was there to make the play, but his ability to create for himself or for others is average.

You could just as well argue that Kampman's numbers didn't go up until Williams started playing regularly at DT on passing downs. The two go hand in hand. DEs don't get as many sacks without the pocket being pushed up the middle, otherwise the QB simply steps up and makes the throw. DTs don't get as many sacks if the QB can simply drift away from the pressure from the DTs. You need both.

Prove it. Kampman gets a lot of his snaps with a good push and jump off the ball. He takes really good angles towards the QB that doesn't necessarily need a push up the middle. KGB get a lot of his sacks with speed off the line of scrimmage. His sacks rarely come from the pocket collapsing up the middle.

Well, I guess I could demand that you prove your opinion, too. You can't, nor can I. Neither of us can. It is all just opinions anyway.

That said, Kampman gets most of his sacks from his never give up attitude. His relentlessness. His sacks often come late in plays as he simply battles longer and harder than the tackle blocking him. KGB does get his with speed. But he mostly uses only an outside, up the field move. Accordingly, both generally need the QB to stay back in the pocket to get to them. QBs can avoid either, but especially KGB, by stepping up in the pocket.

KGB particularly gets deep and can be avoided if there is not some pressure in the middle of the pocket. Kampman generally needs the play to drag out a bit to get his sacks. That doesn't happen if the middle is wide open, although Kampman can adjust his rush and get inside if the QB does move up. KGB does not. If he gets deeper than the QB he is mostly done for that play.

[Guiness]

Got to ask - where does Cole fit in here?????

NOt the player Willams is, IMO, but a piece of the puzzle none the less