Time for TT to hit a blue chipper

[MJZiggy]

Would anyone honestly complain if we upgraded Tony Palmer, Junius Coston, Daryn Colledge, Ruvell Martin, Bolston, Muir, Frank Walker, Jarrett Bush, Brady Poppinga, Tracy White, Jason Hunter, Michael Montgomery, #3 QB, John Kuhn, Deshawn Wynn, Vernand Morency or Koren Robinson? ?


Injuries happen every year. We're going to have to plug in reserves. There is nothign wrong with having a reserve compete with a starter. Hey, if the reserve is that good, it gives you flexiblity to trade the starter like what we did with Williams and good things start to stack on good things. Thompson is doing the right thing. We have 8 picks right now. I'm guessing we end up with 10 and our team will be better for it in the short term because we have better players and in the long term because we have better players. Better players have a timeless goodness about them. .

This might be the part you're not understanding in TT's philosophy, but if he can find a player better than the player he has at ANY position, he will upgrade. He always has, and always will, choose the players for his team that he feels are the best players and the best fit (without paying more than a player is worth). At the end of the preseason he will keep the best players he has available to him. All this talk about upgrading positions is kinda futile.

[arcilite]

Ignore the fact that we have holes at other posititions, that we have a 1,000 yard back and we spent a 2nd on a RB last year.

Screw that. I want to go after whoever the hell Mel Kiper thinks is going to be a great player.

I think if we packaged all of our picks we could move up into the top 6. You think Vernon Gohlston, Rashard Mendenhall or Leodis McKelvin are worth all of our draft picks? If they're anythign like AJ Hawk, I say screw the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th rounders and just move up and grab that stud muffin


Duh, I'm partial

Well, with your philosophy we'll see if we ever get to a super bowl. The only reason we made to the Championship game and got blown out is because of one superstar. After he's gone, we're a 9-7 team.

You know nothing about football and your only actual real opinion is whatever TT says is 100% correct. Me, I would rather win a super bowl than spend years and years exiting the playoffs in the first round. TT has never led a team to the super bowl, has never shown the ability to put together a team that can win the big game, and has drafted two good players in AJ Hawk and Greg Jennings, and a lot of unknowns.

Without adding an absolute stud this team is destined to be 9-6 - 10-6 annually despite its depth. It's funny how you can make all these claims when you yourself were infatuated with going with Vernon Davis and his superstar talent over the solid Hawk. My, how your tune has changed after TT's first winning season.

We're close while we have Favre. Why not get a guy to put us over the top? After all, if Rodgers doesn't pan out, we're a bottom 10 team in the league. Aaron Rodgers has yet to win a game.

When your window is short how it is in the NFL, you cannot be afraid to make a move. Wolf moved up for Vonnie Holliday, he traded a #1 for a 3rd string quarterback, and the year before the won the super bowl he signed stud players in Santana Dotson and Eugene Robisnon. Without us making daring moves to put us over the top, I see a first round exit from the playoffs.

And then what happens when we trade all our draft picks, and that player is a bust? You will be saying TT sucks and then you will complain about how the team has no depth.


Again, go root for the redskins, they like your philosophy.

[Partial]

Would anyone honestly complain if we upgraded Tony Palmer, Junius Coston, Daryn Colledge, Ruvell Martin, Bolston, Muir, Frank Walker, Jarrett Bush, Brady Poppinga, Tracy White, Jason Hunter, Michael Montgomery, #3 QB, John Kuhn, Deshawn Wynn, Vernand Morency or Koren Robinson? ?


Injuries happen every year. We're going to have to plug in reserves. There is nothign wrong with having a reserve compete with a starter. Hey, if the reserve is that good, it gives you flexiblity to trade the starter like what we did with Williams and good things start to stack on good things. Thompson is doing the right thing. We have 8 picks right now. I'm guessing we end up with 10 and our team will be better for it in the short term because we have better players and in the long term because we have better players. Better players have a timeless goodness about them. .

This might be the part you're not understanding in TT's philosophy, but if he can find a player better than the player he has at ANY position, he will upgrade. He always has, and always will, choose the players for his team that he feels are the best players and the best fit (without paying more than a player is worth). At the end of the preseason he will keep the best players he has available to him. All this talk about upgrading positions is kinda futile.

That, and this is from a guy who just a week ago posted about Cliff's superstar theory and how much he buys into it. Get a clue Harrell, you know nothing about football. What the hell difference does the bottom 4th of a roster make? None. And, you're a crazy mofo if you think 7-8 guys are guaranteed to make the roster. If our depth is as good as you claim, wouldn't these guys not to be top-tier players to beat out those guys?!?

Adding 3-4 guys who could become solid starters 3-4 years down the road and maybe a little sooner if you're lucky is not the way to win a superbowl when you're this close. As I reiterate, our chance is gone once Favre is gone unless Rodgers turns out to be a top 3-4 QB in the NFL. I don't see that happening, and as a result I say we go for broke this year.

IMO, we still don't have anything better than an OK running game. The pass still dictates keeping only 6-7 guys in the box, and than we have success. On days when the pass doesn't click like against the Bears, the Giants, etc. We have been downright terrible. Grand and Jackson would be excellent compliments to an absolute stud. I would gladly take a 21 year old stud at RB and have a run first offense and keep defenses honest at the end of games.

[Lurker64]

Stewart is Ahman Green version 2. We would have won the super bowl with him!! Dorsey is a stud. Could be a Tommy Harris from inside or a Reggie White off of the edge. He's that good.

Considering that you guaranteed that Ikegwuonu would be a top 10 pick early in the offseason, I don't think your evaluations of draft picks are quite as exhaustive as I'd hope our scouting department does.

You're not the only person to get lost in hype, after all Reggie Bush was supposed to be the greatest back in the history of the NFL before he was even drafted. I know a lot of Packer fans hoped we would trade up to get him. Does anybody still think that?

[Partial]

Stewart is Ahman Green version 2. We would have won the super bowl with him!! Dorsey is a stud. Could be a Tommy Harris from inside or a Reggie White off of the edge. He's that good.

Considering that you guaranteed that Ikegwuonu would be a top 10 pick early in the offseason, I don't think your evaluations of draft picks are quite as exhaustive as I'd hope our scouting department does.

You're not the only person to get lost in hype, after all Reggie Bush was supposed to be the greatest back in the history of the NFL before he was even drafted. I know a lot of Packer fans hoped we would trade up to get him. Does anybody still think that?

Ikegwuonu is a stud. He has been a shut-down corner. We'll never know since he got hurt. He was given a 2nd round grade by the NFL despite a season in which he was banged up and bored. Once the combine came around he would have rocketed WAY up. Maybe not top 10, but certainly top 20. I'm not saying he'd be a great NFL player, but I am saying he'd have been a high draft pick. There's a difference.

I don't get lost in any hype. I know a good football player when I see one.

Download some Oregon games and tell me you don't love what you see out of Jon Stewart. Do the same with LSU games and tell me you don't see Dorsey beating triple teams with a severely sprained Ankle. These two will be excellent, excellent players.

edit: I see Dorsey weighed in at 312. This must be combine weight. I find it a little hard to believe that he weighed that much at LSU. He won't have the speed to rush the passer off the edge at that weight. I would guess he played at about 280 at LSU.

[Lurker64]

I don't get lost in any hype. I know a good football player when I see one.

Every individual is the worst judge in the world as to whether or not that individual gets lost in hype and whether that individual is a good judge of talent. Of course you don't think you get lost in the hype and of course you think you can judge a good football player when you see one. Everybody thinks things like that. Some of them are right, some of them are not.

I have seen a fair bit of Stewart and Dorsey, and what I noticed is that Stewart looked better than he is because he played in the defense-light Pac-10 and Dorsey looked better than he is because he played in the offense-light SEC. Now, I'm not going to grade either of them out because I'm not a professional scout, but I trust the grades of professional scouts more than you, me, or anybody else on this message board.

Drafting is all about probability, since there's no certainty in anything. As amazing as someone looked in college or as certain as their NFL stardom appears to be, with every pick there's always the chance that he'll give you nothing. No matter how good a player looked, there's always the chance he could get hit by a meteor, blow out a knee, or simply not be able to transfer his college production to an environment with better competition. Really what separates the top 10 guys from the 2nd round guys is that the top 10 guys tend to either have a higher ceiling, or a greater probability of reaching their ceiling. But if you look at the actual NFL, you see that the blue chippers and stars come from all over the draft, not just the top 10 picks.

I would venture that you have a better chance at hitting a blue-chip player by drafting three times in the top 60 than by drafting once in the top 10.

[arcilite]

Ikegwuonu is a stud. He has been a shut-down corner. We'll never know since he got hurt. He was given a 2nd round grade by the NFL despite a season in which he was banged up and bored. Once the combine came around he would have rocketed WAY up. Maybe not top 10, but certainly top 20. I'm not saying he'd be a great NFL player, but I am saying he'd have been a high draft pick. There's a difference.

I don't get lost in any hype. I know a good football player when I see one.

Download some Oregon games and tell me you don't love what you see out of Jon Stewart. Do the same with LSU games and tell me you don't see Dorsey beating triple teams with a severely sprained Ankle. These two will be excellent, excellent players.

edit: I see Dorsey weighed in at 312. This must be combine weight. I find it a little hard to believe that he weighed that much at LSU. He won't have the speed to rush the passer off the edge at that weight. I would guess he played at about 280 at LSU.

Jamal Reynolds beat triple teams as well....

[BallHawk]

Ignore the fact that we have holes at other posititions, that we have a 1,000 yard back and we spent a 2nd on a RB last year.

Screw that. I want to go after whoever the hell Mel Kiper thinks is going to be a great player.

We don't have a thousand yard back. Playoffs don't count. Grant is solid but he is not a stud. Stewart is Ahman Green version 2. We would have won the super bowl with him!! Dorsey is a stud. Could be a Tommy Harris from inside or a Reggie White off of the edge. He's that good.

Hey, Partial, was Brandon Jacobs a stud? Was Eli a stud? Was Derrick Ward a stud? Was David Tyree a stud?

You don't need studs to win a SB, just ask the Cowboys. We would of win the SB with Stewart? Please, P, don't kid yourself. We could of had Walter Payton in our backfield against the Giants and it wouldn't of mattered. The coaches weren't giving Grant the ball, that's not his fault. If you want to call a guy that basically racked up 1,000 yards in half a season and then went on to rush for 200 yards and 3 TDs in a freakin' blizzard "solid" then you must have pretty high standards. Grant is not a stud, but he's a goddamn good back and he deserves something a bit higher than "solid."

And, Partial, drafting DL in the top 10 is idiotic. There is nothing more deceptive than a college DL playing in the right system when he's in college. There are a lot more Jamaal Reynolds than there are Julius Peppers.

[RashanGary]

This might be the part you're not understanding in TT's philosophy, but if he can find a player better than the player he has at ANY position, he will upgrade. He always has, and always will, choose the players for his team that he feels are the best players and the best fit (without paying more than a player is worth). At the end of the preseason he will keep the best players he has available to him. All this talk about upgrading positions is kinda futile.

I know, Zig. What I was trying to show is that it's not that hard to upgrade any position on our roster. We can take the BPA and if that player turns out to be worth his draft pick (which isn't gauranteed), he'll probably end up sticking. What I'm saying is if we add 10 picks, I think there is a good chance 8 of them can stick because the back end of our roster is just so/so.

[RashanGary]

If Corey Williams was our #5 DT, James Jones was our #5 WR, Jason Spitz was our #10 Olineman, Aaron Rodgers was our #3 QB, Brady Poppinga was our #6 LB, ect. . . . .

I could see looking at it as a situation where it would be hard to get better with 8 draft picks.

When you have guys like Frank Walker, Carl Bolston (if that's his name), Jason Hunter, Ruvell Martin, Deshawn Wynn, Tony Palmer, ect. . .. It's not too hard to upgrade. There are people saying we're not going to get that much better with a bunch of picks and I don't think it's to that point yet. Can it get there? Yeah, it can. It's really hard and really rare, but I do think it can. It's not even close yet. We can get a lot better.

[b bulldog]

I see it as your both correct, we definitely need some playmakers and we also need better players in certain positions that we can groom and will provide depth until they are called upon to start.

[Partial]

Ignore the fact that we have holes at other posititions, that we have a 1,000 yard back and we spent a 2nd on a RB last year.

Screw that. I want to go after whoever the hell Mel Kiper thinks is going to be a great player.

I think if we packaged all of our picks we could move up into the top 6. You think Vernon Gohlston, Rashard Mendenhall or Leodis McKelvin are worth all of our draft picks? If they're anythign like AJ Hawk, I say screw the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th rounders and just move up and grab that stud muffin


Duh, I'm partial

Well, with your philosophy we'll see if we ever get to a super bowl. The only reason we made to the Championship game and got blown out is because of one superstar. After he's gone, we're a 9-7 team.

You know nothing about football and your only actual real opinion is whatever TT says is 100% correct. Me, I would rather win a super bowl than spend years and years exiting the playoffs in the first round. TT has never led a team to the super bowl, has never shown the ability to put together a team that can win the big game, and has drafted two good players in AJ Hawk and Greg Jennings, and a lot of unknowns.

Without adding an absolute stud this team is destined to be 9-6 - 10-6 annually despite its depth. It's funny how you can make all these claims when you yourself were infatuated with going with Vernon Davis and his superstar talent over the solid Hawk. My, how your tune has changed after TT's first winning season.

We're close while we have Favre. Why not get a guy to put us over the top? After all, if Rodgers doesn't pan out, we're a bottom 10 team in the league. Aaron Rodgers has yet to win a game.

When your window is short how it is in the NFL, you cannot be afraid to make a move. Wolf moved up for Vonnie Holliday, he traded a #1 for a 3rd string quarterback, and the year before the won the super bowl he signed stud players in Santana Dotson and Eugene Robisnon. Without us making daring moves to put us over the top, I see a first round exit from the playoffs.

And then what happens when we trade all our draft picks, and that player is a bust? You will be saying TT sucks and then you will complain about how the team has no depth.


Again, go root for the redskins, they like your philosophy.

No, I won't fault a team for going for broke. The difference between the Redskins and the Packers is that the Redskins were never this close, and did not have the depth moving forward. Will you not be dissapointed TT didn't try to do more when our window closes when Favre retires?

[Partial]

Ignore the fact that we have holes at other posititions, that we have a 1,000 yard back and we spent a 2nd on a RB last year.

Screw that. I want to go after whoever the hell Mel Kiper thinks is going to be a great player.

We don't have a thousand yard back. Playoffs don't count. Grant is solid but he is not a stud. Stewart is Ahman Green version 2. We would have won the super bowl with him!! Dorsey is a stud. Could be a Tommy Harris from inside or a Reggie White off of the edge. He's that good.

Hey, Partial, was Brandon Jacobs a stud? Was Eli a stud? Was Derrick Ward a stud? Was David Tyree a stud?

You don't need studs to win a SB, just ask the Cowboys. We would of win the SB with Stewart? Please, P, don't kid yourself. We could of had Walter Payton in our backfield against the Giants and it wouldn't of mattered. The coaches weren't giving Grant the ball, that's not his fault. If you want to call a guy that basically racked up 1,000 yards in half a season and then went on to rush for 200 yards and 3 TDs in a freakin' blizzard "solid" then you must have pretty high standards. Grant is not a stud, but he's a goddamn good back and he deserves something a bit higher than "solid."

And, Partial, drafting DL in the top 10 is idiotic. There is nothing more deceptive than a college DL playing in the right system when he's in college. There are a lot more Jamaal Reynolds than there are Julius Peppers.

I think Eli was playing like a stud, and I think Tuck and Osi were hell of finds in the draft. Rarely do you get lucky like that.

He's solid. Nothing more. He hasn't shown to be anything better than that. He was unable to create anything for himself when the passing game was not working.

You're kidding yourself if we would have had Walter Peyton and wouldn't have won. Seriously dude, gimme a break.

Jamal Reynolds was an undersized speed rusher. I don't think that really compares at all to a power interior rusher and occasional edge rusher. Furthermore, the prospects are not even comparable.

Archlite, please go find me video of Jamal Reynolds beating triple teams. Also, find a scouting report putting him in the same league as Dorsey.

There is not a single doubt in my head that if we had done what I wanted and traded up for Peterson instead of having Harrell and Jackson on the bench, that we would have won the super bowl.

[Partial]

If Corey Williams was our #5 DT, James Jones was our #5 WR, Jason Spitz was our #10 Olineman, Aaron Rodgers was our #3 QB, Brady Poppinga was our #6 LB, ect. . . . .

I could see looking at it as a situation where it would be hard to get better with 8 draft picks.

When you have guys like Frank Walker, Carl Bolston (if that's his name), Jason Hunter, Ruvell Martin, Deshawn Wynn, Tony Palmer, ect. . .. It's not too hard to upgrade. There are people saying we're not going to get that much better with a bunch of picks and I don't think it's to that point yet. Can it get there? Yeah, it can. It's really hard and really rare, but I do think it can. It's not even close yet. We can get a lot better.

Are those players going to make any difference though? You just went preaching that having a very good couple of players is better than having solid depth. I maintain you can fill you bottom 4th of your roster with any players around the league and see very minimal drop-off. These guys aren't going to have a huge impact on your team as they're primarily inactive.

I generally support TT but now that he has a young, deep team it is time to make some moves to put them over the top.

[RashanGary]

I see your point, Partial. It's one of the easiest things to do is go down each playoff team and say "hey, they're close. If they just do this they're over the top".


There is more to finding great players than just willing it to happen. If teams could just will great players onto their roster, every team would be doing it. It's tough work. You have to do your work, make good picks and if you're good enough you're going to get some playmakers like Osi and Tuck. There are other ways to do it as well. The Grant trade was fantastic. I just think you're assuming it's just a matter of going out and doing it when it's not that easy. Mike Reinfeldt had a comment recently saying you can't just go out and get better quickly any more. You have to do your homework, hit on yoru picks and keep your own. He said the beginning of UFA was different. I think that's why McGinn, Cristl and many here have a hard time seeing the change. It's not just going to happen in a big furry of moves anymore. It's going to happen over time if a GM makes enough good decisions in a row. That's a reoccuring theme around the NFL now if you listen. Cristl and McGinn saw the biggest UFA signing ever and they think that's how it's done. They talk to Wolf (a guy who's out of the circle) and he still thinks that's how it's done. If you look around, that's the exception now. In fact, a move like that was one of a kind. It's never happened before and never happened since.