OTA Report: Hawk has landed edition *packerrats copyright*

[MJZiggy]

Glad to hear that Carroll (yes, Ahmad for all the doubters) is looking good.

Did you think we thought you meant Carol Burnette?

[RashanGary]

I did notice 97 was in with the 1's.....I should take notes like gbpackfan. When the oline and dline are going 1 on 1, I'm watching the WR's. I don't like to move and lose the good spot

[Noodle]

Polaris, thanks for Cliffy's update.

Somebody help me out here -- why should guards be getting tooled on in pass rush drills where there is no hitting? I mean, I know our light-but-quick guys are gonna have trouble anchoring against a bull rush, but I'm assuming that they are seeing spin and swim moves, not raw power. This is where they should be excelling. What's going on around here?!?

[Polaris]

Polaris, thanks for Cliffy's update.

Somebody help me out here -- why should guards be getting tooled on in pass rush drills where there is no hitting? I?!?

This is speculation on my part.

There isn't any hittng, but that doesn't mean there isn't any contact....it's kind of like a spirited game of touch football by some pretty big, strong, athletic dudes.

Our guards are having trouble because they're inexperienced. This is not a problem that's going to go away this year, IMO. I think they'll improve and get better, but I'd be really surprised if our pass protection was any better than last year's.........now, I don't really think it was that terrible last year, but some people did. In any event, I think that the people who just assumed that McCarthy and Jags + a couple of draft picks = improved offensive line this year are going to be disappointed.

Coston, Spitz, Wells, and Colledge may all be fine linemen someday. But that someday isn't going to be this year.

[retailguy]

This is speculation on my part.

There isn't any hittng, but that doesn't mean there isn't any contact....it's kind of like a spirited game of touch football by some pretty big, strong, athletic dudes.

Our guards are having trouble because they're inexperienced. This is not a problem that's going to go away this year, IMO. I think they'll improve and get better, but I'd be really surprised if our pass protection was any better than last year's.........now, I don't really think it was that terrible last year, but some people did. In any event, I think that the people who just assumed that McCarthy and Jags + a couple of draft picks = improved offensive line this year are going to be disappointed.

Coston, Spitz, Wells, and Colledge may all be fine linemen someday. But that someday isn't going to be this year.

Polaris,

Welcome.

I'm not sure that is speculation, it is probably the most likely scenario. I thought the problems last year were with the run blocking. While Favre ended up on his back quite a bit more than normal, it still wasn't too bad compared to half the league.

It would be reasonable to assume, I'd think, that the first half of the year will look like last year, and then as it did last year, the line play should start to improve.

While Gado was fun to watch, a reasonable person would have to assume that the line play was improving during that time. But, damn he was fun to watch during a dismal season, wasn't he?

My questions regarding the line relate to the ZBS. If this is so "easy" as Jags seems to make it out to be, then we should hope for an improved line. My thoughts are, as this "scheme" gets popular, the DL coaches are working on something to shut it down.

In todays world, that might mean that a DL keeps a colt 45 in his pocket and shoots the guard after a vicious cut block.... Hopefully they'll take it to the parking lot....

[Oscar]

Great stuff Nick. Thanks. I'm gonna be real suprised if A.C. doesn't have a solid year. I hope we establish who the starters on the OL are gonna be early and give them a chance to gel into and beyond the pre-season.

[Polaris]

[
My questions regarding the line relate to the ZBS. If this is so "easy" as Jags seems to make it out to be, then we should hope for an improved line. My thoughts are, as this "scheme" gets popular, the DL coaches are working on something to shut it down.

:

Zone blocking isn't something that was just invented....it's been around for quite a while. I've taught it to high school kids. The Packers employed it on the backside of runs.

But here's the deal....you've got to get your guy blocked. With the TE and FB, you've got seven blocking their front seven. Everybody has to get their guy blocked.....one failure and the play is stopped. That means you've got to win seven battles.

When you're running pulling or trapping plays, the premise is that you're getting more guys at the point of attack than the defense has. That won't happen anymore.

What I want to know is what we'll do when they bring that 8th guy, the strong safety, into the box. You man up on each WR, keep a FS deep, use the linebacker to keep the TE from releasing.......and there isn't a blocker to pick up that SS.

At that point, you've got to have a passing attack that'll beat single coverage, and I'm not talking for a six yard gain, either.

I think there's an additional problem with defenses stunting as well. Just like in a "zone blitz" you overload one side so there are more rushers than blockers, in a "zone RUN blitz" you could simply overwhelm the blockers on one side of the line or the other. IF you've guessed right, you stuff the play....if you've guessed wrong, the offense still has to get their guys blocked and you've got a safety to prevent the long run.

If you've got smart linemen, zone blocking is easy to teach. But the guys still have to get blocked regardless of what scheme you're running........and it doesn't impact pass blocking at all, which is half of your plays.

I'm very dubious that Coach McCarthy & Co. are going to control the LOS this year, and that's going to make for a long season, IMO.

[Noodle]

Dang, Polaris, quality posts. I agree with you about last year's past pro -- I thought the interior guys did ok, and were not the train wreck that people made them out to be. Now run blocking, they blew, but pass pro, not too bad.

I also agree that this year's group looks to me like they will struggle early on, and I'm particulary concerned about pass pro. I fear they're not stout enough to anchor against a bull rush, and not experienced enough to deal with the athletic moves they will see.

At bottom, I'd love to see TT bring in a decent OG as to give us a little stability. I'm not saying our new guys will never have it -- we all know it took a while for Wahle to break through. But geez, do we really want to have three guys, in the middle of the OL, cutting their eye teeth at the same time?

[OS PA]

Quick question - To anyone who's been watching these OTAs has Kenny Peterson been seeing any time at DE?

We all know there will be rotation at DT, that's a given, the question i'm always having is are we starting to rotate our DEs? I hope we do. If KGB only plays passing downs he should be dominant, especially with what these free weights are doing to our players!

[KYPack]

[
My questions regarding the line relate to the ZBS. If this is so "easy" as Jags seems to make it out to be, then we should hope for an improved line. My thoughts are, as this "scheme" gets popular, the DL coaches are working on something to shut it down.

:

Zone blocking isn't something that was just invented....it's been around for quite a while. I've taught it to high school kids. The Packers employed it on the backside of runs.

But here's the deal....you've got to get your guy blocked. With the TE and FB, you've got seven blocking their front seven. Everybody has to get their guy blocked.....one failure and the play is stopped. That means you've got to win seven battles.

When you're running pulling or trapping plays, the premise is that you're getting more guys at the point of attack than the defense has. That won't happen anymore.

What I want to know is what we'll do when they bring that 8th guy, the strong safety, into the box. You man up on each WR, keep a FS deep, use the linebacker to keep the TE from releasing.......and there isn't a blocker to pick up that SS.

At that point, you've got to have a passing attack that'll beat single coverage, and I'm not talking for a six yard gain, either.

I think there's an additional problem with defenses stunting as well. Just like in a "zone blitz" you overload one side so there are more rushers than blockers, in a "zone RUN blitz" you could simply overwhelm the blockers on one side of the line or the other. IF you've guessed right, you stuff the play....if you've guessed wrong, the offense still has to get their guys blocked and you've got a safety to prevent the long run.

If you've got smart linemen, zone blocking is easy to teach. But the guys still have to get blocked regardless of what scheme you're running........and it doesn't impact pass blocking at all, which is half of your plays.

I'm very dubious that Coach McCarthy & Co. are going to control the LOS this year, and that's going to make for a long season, IMO.

Well, you obviously understand the zone and it's weaknesses. I've tried to talk of some of this in posts, but my power of expanation seems to be limited.

The Zone scheme isn't some kind of magic. It's just a basic football scheme. You get guys handled, your back can make yards, you don't, he gets stuffed. This zone (the Alex Gibbs scheme) just commits more guys and is more of a sell out. When it works, it's almost unstoppable. When it fails, it's UGLY.

How do you counter the SS getting in your ass by storming the line?

Several ways

1. A BOSS block. Back on Strong Safety. You bring Hendu (or whoever) up to knock him off. The problem is that's tough. The defenses "jailbreak" it to the strong side. They are packed in there, & the SS is just one member of the gang crashing the line. But, the BOSS block is a strong counter to a SS storm.

2. The main way are the counters. You really run the main play to set up the counter plays. This is a great way to keep the SS honest. Two or three lineman on the back side fake like they are moving strong, then they go in the opposite direction and hook the DL lineman and Backers. The back makes 2 or 3 steps towards the strong side then follows his guys to the weak side. The crashing SS is out of position and if you block the other S, you got a score. The majority of long gainers in the Zone are counters.

3 Play Action 8 in the box will be any teams reaction to a zone scheme. If the SS is aggressively crashing the line, you show play action. The lone safety is vulnerable. You show run, then pick on the single safety. Run one reciever on one side, the other one on the other side. Which ever the S decides to cover, you throw to the other guy. Denver runs this all the time with the Jake the Snake. They fake the run to the strong side, then Jake rolls to the back side. He then looks for the reciever that's singled up (or running free) because the "D" overloaded the run.

I totally agree with your point that implementing all this is gonna be tough. We will see some awful things happen until our boys get this all down pat. MM better get ready, cause there are gonna be a lot of unrest during the learning curve.

[The Leaper]

I totally agree with your point that implementing all this is gonna be tough. We will see some awful things happen until our boys get this all down pat. MM better get ready, cause there are gonna be a lot of unrest during the learning curve.

And another point to all those griping about getting a "veteran" OL person in there...

Not many teams run a zone blocking scheme, and finding a capable vet who has experience in this scheme will be nearly impossible. Basically, you are going to likely have struggles in the transition REGARDLESS of whether you have a rookie in there or a veteran. That is why it makes more sense to just let the kids learn on their own. There will be a period of transition and difficulty, but it will serve the team better in the long run.

[PCastleberg]

Quick question - To anyone who's been watching these OTAs has Kenny Peterson been seeing any time at DE?

We all know there will be rotation at DT, that's a given, the question i'm always having is are we starting to rotate our DEs? I hope we do. If KGB only plays passing downs he should be dominant, especially with what these free weights are doing to our players!

I have seen several different reports from observers saying that he has been seeing snaps at DE. So yes he's at least getting a look there.

PC

[Noodle]

Leaper, two words why I want a vet: Pass Protection. From my understanding, ZBS is a method for assigning a guy to take a guy, but once you've got your guy, you still have to block him. Our new guys not only have to learn a system, they also have to learn how to Pass Pro at the NFL level.

Seems to me it'd be a good thing if at least one of the guards had some trigger time and could give some guidance to our young 'uns on the fine art of laying the wood to DTs, NTs, and various irritating little people (MLs and SSs).

[Scott Campbell]

Polaris,

Welcome to the board! Terrific explanation. Now if we could just get you and KY a white board.

[Polaris]

Polaris,

Welcome to the board! Terrific explanation. Now if we could just get you and KY a white board.

You mean, something like this?: