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**cpk1994** · 08-02-2008, 01:09 PM

Re: A QUESTION TO SOLICIT HONEST AND STRAIGHT FOWARD ANSWERS

Originally posted by MOBB DEEP

the one thing that ive noticed since i started posting on packer forums over 3 years ago is that 99% of posters are pretty much set in their stance on major topics. the favre debacle is one such topic. at this point no one's gonna be swayed to the "other side" by a poster's well thought out, eloquent posts (in reality it's a waste of time if u REALLY think about it people. altho it was quite CRASS a poster back on JSO once said that debating on a forum is akin to participatin in the special olympics; even if u win u're still a retard - honestly it hurt my soul a lil to say that)

my goal/simple question may have already been reached/answered in one way or anothr; but this thread is meant to condense poster's thoughts and feelings on a concrete level.

never mind all the deep analysis because NO ONE here is a part of the inner circle up in title town and have all the info needed to make the critical judgements we tend to make [posters jus speculate, pontificate, imagine, feel, hope, want, KNOW (shadow and texaspackerbacker - lol), and conjecture]

ok, here goes......

as a FAN what REAL negative would there be if #4 and TT/MM kissed and made up and favre is under center come MNF???

honestly; not a bunch of subjectivity and bashing, recalling of #4's bad games or of arods' and TTs respective poise and feelings

again, as a FAN of the pack or fball in general, WHAT REAL NEGATIVE WOULD THER BE IF PEOPLE EMMULATED JESUS AND FORGAVE ONE ANOTHER FOR THE BENEFIT OF PACKER NATION????

go.....

There is no negative to him being under center on MNF. The problem is having Favre under center now really sets a bad precident in the locker room. If Favre is under center opening night, that means you can lie, throw the orginization under the bus, skip all team activities, do what ever you want, not to mention that this player tells others to honor their contract and not hold himself to the same standard and you will be given your job no questions asked. It sends a bad message to the rest of the team and shows one player is above the rest of them. McCarthy would be undermining his own autority and contining demand for accountability by allowing Brett to be the starter now.

**oregonpackfan** · 08-02-2008, 01:09 PM

The main negative I would see if Favre lined up over center this fall is that the Packers would probably lose Aaron Rodgers at the end of the season.

Having sat on the bench for the past 3 years with this year being the 4th, I could not blame Rodgers demanding a trade to play elsewhere.

Favre may or may not come back for the 2009 season, but Rodgers would be gone, IMO.

**footballfever** · 08-02-2008, 01:10 PM

You'd be asking a man (TT) and an organizatioin (Packers) to surrender all their philosophies and principles for the sake of one selfish crybaby (Favre). I know this wasn't supposed to be subjective or biased, but look at Favre. He's become the typical 2 year old in a grocery store kicking and screaming, as a child of a family of now 80 you just can't enable that kind of behavior. And to hell with the average Packer fan that has no grip on reality and wants to protest in front of Lambeau with picket signs. What the fuck is this world really coming too? Too bad that anthrax scientist did himself in, we could have forwarded some of those peoples addresses to him!

**MJZiggy** · 08-02-2008, 01:12 PM

It's not about forgiveness, MD. While I have my opinions on the way he's been acting, the moment a solution is reached it will blow over. Should he wind up back with the Packers, I will worry about what happens to Rodgers and the wisdom of threatening our relationship with him (which is based in the future, not the past). I will also worry about the Dallas game and that last Bears game, and should we get into the playoffs, I will worry a lot.

**sheepshead** · 08-02-2008, 01:19 PM

The unknown here, at least to us, it what MM and TT see in ARod. Obviously they believe he is ready to step in and lead this team. We dont have the benefit of all the practice time and game film that these guys have. While we can have an opinion, we don't have their information per se.

They think it's time to let the better guy start under center Sept 8.

**MOBB DEEP** · 08-02-2008, 01:37 PM

Re: A QUESTION TO SOLICIT HONEST AND STRAIGHT FOWARD ANSWERS

Originally posted by cpk1994

Originally posted by MOBB DEEP

the one thing that ive noticed since i started posting on packer forums over 3 years ago is that 99% of posters are pretty much set in their stance on major topics. the favre debacle is one such topic. at this point no one's gonna be swayed to the "other side" by a poster's well thought out, eloquent posts (in reality it's a waste of time if u REALLY think about it people. altho it was quite CRASS a poster back on JSO once said that debating on a forum is akin to participatin in the special olympics; even if u win u're still a retard - honestly it hurt my soul a lil to say that)

my goal/simple question may have already been reached/answered in one way or anothr; but this thread is meant to condense poster's thoughts and feelings on a concrete level.

never mind all the deep analysis because NO ONE here is a part of the inner circle up in title town and have all the info needed to make the critical judgements we tend to make [posters jus speculate, pontificate, imagine, feel, hope, want, KNOW (shadow and texaspackerbacker - lol), and conjecture]

ok, here goes......

as a FAN what REAL negative would there be if #4 and TT/MM kissed and made up and favre is under center come MNF???

honestly; not a bunch of subjectivity and bashing, recalling of #4's bad games or of arods' and TTs respective poise and feelings

again, as a FAN of the pack or fball in general, WHAT REAL NEGATIVE WOULD THER BE IF PEOPLE EMMULATED JESUS AND FORGAVE ONE ANOTHER FOR THE BENEFIT OF PACKER NATION????

go.....

There is no negative to him being under center on MNF. The problem is having Favre under center now really sets a bad precident in the locker room. If Favre is under center opening night, that means you can lie, throw the orginization under the bus, skip all team activities, do what ever you want, not to mention that this player tells others to honor their contract and not hold himself to the same standard and you will be given your job no questions asked. It sends a bad message to the rest of the team and shows one player is above the rest of them. McCarthy would be undermining his own autority and contining demand for accountability by allowing Brett to be the starter now.

i understand what u mean by the cry baby statement (altho i thinks it's jus the diva status thats bn afforded him, ala kobe bryant and many other privileged athletes, that caused him to think he was indispensible).

because he does have free will i guess we cant give him a pass b/c he didnt spoil himself, it was the media etc. but we're all fallable so if his biggest shortcoming is arrogance (it probably isnt his biggest in private) then wouldnt it be a step in the rt direction if he was FORCED to compete for the job? that would humble him and show the other guys that he has to at least re-earn the PRIVLILEGE of manning the ship in GB?

to be honest the ONLY neg i see is POSSIBLY losing Arod. but y would he leave? EVERYONE knws #4 has 1 or 2 years left. go where? im sure he realizes GB is a great palce to be and is close enuff to MM/TT to be easily coaxed to be a lil more patient (he's NOT steve young - i dont think)

**bobblehead** · 08-02-2008, 01:38 PM

If he makes up with TT and we work out a really nice trade to minnesota and he lines up under center for the vikes I can see no negative whatsoever.....thats what you meant right?

**MOBB DEEP** · 08-02-2008, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by bobblehead

If he makes up with TT and we work out a really nice trade to minnesota and he lines up under center for the vikes I can see no negative whatsoever.....thats what you meant right?

ok, so u're sayn that if he came back with hat in hand MAD apologetic asking for forgiveness TT should STILL say go to hades (err Minn)???

**pbmax** · 08-02-2008, 01:42 PM

I do not agree with your suspicions about posters in general. Certainly, much is written that is less than serious, emotional and flawed logically. But there is a great deal of reasoned thinking here and much good information. There are precious few sites out there that can get to the details of the CBA and salary cap info like this forum can thanks to posters like Patler.

And at least one poster has played college ball and can do a reasonable job of identifying the good, bad and ugly of line play.

That said, you wanted a reasoned and informed look at the negative of Favre's return. Here is Super Bowl winning Tony Dungy on why the Alpha Dog question is important, and why the Packers cannot, without a cost, let Favre choose the timing of his return after a retirement:

© 2008 Journal Sentinel, Inc.
http://blogs.jsonline.com/packers/ar...ett-favre.aspx

Dungy on Brett Favre
By Don Walker
Friday, Jul 18 2008, 12:46 PM

Tony Dungy, the head coach of the Indianapolis Colts, was on WMVP's (1000-AM) "Waddle and Silvy," in Chicago this morning and had a few interesting comments about Brett Favre.

Silvy: "Thoughts on Brett Favre and the Packers?"

Dungy: "It's really too bad, and you've seen it happen in a lot of cases. It's not really a first, but it's a first for it to be out in public like this. You think back to Montana and Rice and Ronnie Lott, and some of those great players, that ended up going to other teams. But they sat down, they made a decision, and they all came out on the same page: Hey, he still wants to play, we have to move in another direction, and here's what we're going to do. And then the guy's moved on. But I think here, it played out as he's going to retire, okay we're set to go, we've got to tailor our salary cap, our offense, our everything to Aaron Rodgers, we've worked on him for four months, and now when he wants to come back....that's difficult for the player and the team, and you just hope it has a good resolution."

Silvy: "Doesn't a team need to call an audible when you have a great player that wants to return?"

Dungy: "It's not that easy to do. I put myself in the coach's position, if Peyton had come to me in February and said, 'Hey, I'm retiring,' my whole emphasis to the team for the next four months would be, 'We can't regret not having Peyton Manning, we can't look back, we've got to win, here's what we're going to do on offense now, we're going to do everything that fits Jim Sorgi, we're going to move on, and we can't have the white elephant of Peyton Manning in the back of our heads.' And now, you come back, and well, he is going to be there, maybe he's going to be there for a few weeks, maybe he's into it, maybe he's not. It's not as easy as you think, just to say 'Okay, let's have him come back.' It's a tough situation for both sides, and by the same token, you've got one of the greatest players in the history of your franchise that you do want to take care of, so it's probably a no-win situation right now."

**Pugger** · 08-02-2008, 01:52 PM

I think the crux of this problem is the fact that Brett isn't 100% committed to football. If he REALLY wanted to play he would've told Murphy no and asked Goodell to reinstate him so he can come to GB and force TT's hand. The fact that he is considering taking The Offer tells me he isn't sure what he wants to do and THAT is why TT and company have moved forward. It didn't help his cause when he went on TV and blasted the organization either.

**MOBB DEEP** · 08-02-2008, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by MJZiggy

It's not about forgiveness, MD. While I have my opinions on the way he's been acting, the moment a solution is reached it will blow over. Should he wind up back with the Packers, I will worry about what happens to Rodgers and the wisdom of threatening our relationship with him (which is based in the future, not the past). I will also worry about the Dallas game and that last Bears game, and should we get into the playoffs, I will worry a lot.

im EXTREMELY optimistic that arod will be a good one....but dont u think even he was surprised that #4 retired after the year he had? so for approx 2 1/2 months he was the starter (i hope MM/TT informed him they were expecting #4 to come back during the whole "flyn down to miss" scenario). and of course we all know it's a business (favre has learned lol) so like most of the vets say u gota have a strong stomach as a player

so ther we have it; the MAIN negs are arod might leave and 1 player may be perceived as being placed on a pedestal...

i dont think aaron would leave (he's a good dude)

and i think most of the players already view #4 as being "special" - shoot look at the media coverage, they wernt born yesterday (the love affair is OLD NEWS). remember Moss saying "let me get up and look at this; this brett favre here...!" ? CLASSIC

**MOBB DEEP** · 08-02-2008, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by pbmax

I do not agree with your suspicions about posters in general. Certainly, much is written that is less than serious, emotional and flawed logically. But there is a great deal of reasoned thinking here and much good information. There are precious few sites out there that can get to the details of the CBA and salary cap info like this forum can thanks to posters like Patler.

And at least one poster has played college ball and can do a reasonable job of identifying the good, bad and ugly of line play.

That said, you wanted a reasoned and informed look at the negative of Favre's return. Here is Super Bowl winning Tony Dungy on why the Alpha Dog question is important, and why the Packers cannot, without a cost, let Favre choose the timing of his return after a retirement:

© 2008 Journal Sentinel, Inc.
http://blogs.jsonline.com/packers/ar...ett-favre.aspx

Dungy on Brett Favre
By Don Walker
Friday, Jul 18 2008, 12:46 PM

Tony Dungy, the head coach of the Indianapolis Colts, was on WMVP's (1000-AM) "Waddle and Silvy," in Chicago this morning and had a few interesting comments about Brett Favre.

Silvy: "Thoughts on Brett Favre and the Packers?"

Dungy: "It's really too bad, and you've seen it happen in a lot of cases. It's not really a first, but it's a first for it to be out in public like this. You think back to Montana and Rice and Ronnie Lott, and some of those great players, that ended up going to other teams. But they sat down, they made a decision, and they all came out on the same page: Hey, he still wants to play, we have to move in another direction, and here's what we're going to do. And then the guy's moved on. But I think here, it played out as he's going to retire, okay we're set to go, we've got to tailor our salary cap, our offense, our everything to Aaron Rodgers, we've worked on him for four months, and now when he wants to come back....that's difficult for the player and the team, and you just hope it has a good resolution."

Silvy: "Doesn't a team need to call an audible when you have a great player that wants to return?"

Dungy: "It's not that easy to do. I put myself in the coach's position, if Peyton had come to me in February and said, 'Hey, I'm retiring,' my whole emphasis to the team for the next four months would be, 'We can't regret not having Peyton Manning, we can't look back, we've got to win, here's what we're going to do on offense now, we're going to do everything that fits Jim Sorgi, we're going to move on, and we can't have the white elephant of Peyton Manning in the back of our heads.' And now, you come back, and well, he is going to be there, maybe he's going to be there for a few weeks, maybe he's into it, maybe he's not. It's not as easy as you think, just to say 'Okay, let's have him come back.' It's a tough situation for both sides, and by the same token, you've got one of the greatest players in the history of your franchise that you do want to take care of, so it's probably a no-win situation right now."

i can dig that.....so favre fans need to realize that its not as simple as "come on back" its a mindset that a team/mgmt takes and uncertainty is frustrating

**Zool** · 08-02-2008, 02:12 PM

As others have stated, it basically says that 1 player is more important than the organization as a whole. This one players should be allowed to pick and choose when he will come and go on the team as he sees fit. I guess I'm more of the ilk that the ant mound cannot survive without each member being thought of as equal.

I also don't like all the negatives he's been saying to the media about Thompson, the o-line and the WR core. He can say "its not about the guys we have, its about the guys we could have had," but that in my mind is the same as saying the guys we have aren't good enough.

**boiga** · 08-02-2008, 02:14 PM

Re: A QUESTION TO SOLICIT HONEST AND STRAIGHT FOWARD ANSWERS

Originally posted by MOBB DEEP

as a FAN what REAL negative would there be if #4 and TT/MM kissed and made up and favre is under center come MNF???

The real risk here is that Favre picks this year for his skills to decline dramatically while the insult from the demotion would cause Rodgers to seek a trade. To have Favre start again would give us the minor short term benefit of the upgrade from Rodgers to Favre, while potentially risking the long term viability of the entire team should we be left without a quarterback next season.

Also, the transition to a post Favre Packers had to occur sometime. This season, the rest of the team is high enough caliber that we don't need to depend on the Favre of old pulling miracles out of his ass to win us games. We learned in 2005 that Favre can't support the team without any help. Now we have a team that can support the QB until he learns the ropes. That opportunity may not be here next year. We could lose Al and Chuck, our defense could be in shambles, and throwing in an inexperienced QB would be sacrificing him to the wolves.

Rodgers has the supporting cast this year to take us deep in the playoffs. That means that we don't NEED Favre this year like we did the last ten. They planned for a successful transition and to waste that planning might make it another 10 years or more before we could rebuild this team again.

Also, it would set the following bad precedents:
1. A star player can cow management by making a fuss.
2. A player's opinion will matter more than the coaches.
3. A player can get away with bad mouthing his organization without repercussions.
4. Working hard in the OTA's is a waste of effort if you have enough pull.
5. The player's desire matters more than the needs of the team.

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