QB Sneak

[The Leaper]

It always bothered me that the toughest guy on the field couldn't sneak for a 1st down.

Toughness can't overcome 38 year old legs that have taken more snaps than any other QB in the history of the game.

Besides, the QB sneak actually is more about the center than it is the QB. Wells is a puny center...IMO, a big reason Rodgers had success with the sneaks this preseason was that Wells has been sidelined and we have a bigger guy in there at center.

[Deputy Nutz]

Under Sherman the Packers did really well going for it in short yardage situations without having to use the sneak. Nobody complained about the lack of sneak when Ahman Green would flat out punish the opposing defense on 3rd in short or 4th in short. Some of his biggest runs came on those downs.

This is such a ridiculous knock on Favre it boarders on retarded. If a team can't run the football for a first down on 4th and one then the team has bigger problems than the QBs ability to sneak.

How pissed would Packer Nation have been if Favre tore up his shoulder trying to sneak for a first down? Outrage, but now it is ok to criticize him for it, seems like a reoccurring theme here.

[HarveyWallbangers]

You said "Favre was never that mobile even in his younger days." That statement is utterly false. End Post.

Agreed.

Favre DID NOT WANT to run.... he DID NOT HAVE to run... but to judge his athletic ability on that?.. you gotta be shittin me.. he's more athletic at 38 than Arod will ever hope to be... along with most in this league..

What? Come on. Take off the Favre goggles.

[Zool]

Favre DID NOT WANT to run.... he DID NOT HAVE to run... but to judge his athletic ability on that?.. you gotta be shittin me.. he's more athletic at 38 than Arod will ever hope to be... along with most in this league..

What? Come on. Take off the Favre goggles.

Heh. Thats homeriffic.

[The Leaper]

This is such a ridiculous knock on Favre it boarders on retarded. If a team can't run the football for a first down on 4th and one then the team has bigger problems than the QBs ability to sneak.

How pissed would Packer Nation have been if Favre tore up his shoulder trying to sneak for a first down? Outrage, but now it is ok to criticize him for it, seems like a reoccurring them here.

Yep...the anti-Favre segment love to harp on ANY Favre weakness and run with it like they've just robbed a bank.

The notion that Favre was in any way responsible for our attrocious performance in short yardage situations the last 2-3 years is ridiculous. Point the blame at Ted Thompson for not adequately replacing either Wahle, Flanagan, or Rivera despite having THREE OFFSEASONS now to do so. Our interior OL is a joke...so it is no wonder that we can't muster a damn yard when we need to.

[HarveyWallbangers]

It's not a big knock, but the fact we were just 36% successful on 3rd and 1 or 4th and 1 shows that we could use a QB that can run for a first down in short yardage situations. No doubt about it.

[mraynrand]

This discussion has degenerated into one about the sneak?

1) To sneak Rodgers in a preseason game 3 TIMES, with rookies on the bench was madness

2) Any NFL coach in this era who is using the sneak deliberately as a weapon with his starting QB, is a bit mad. It presents the chance for the defense to take multiple pot shots at the QB. The defense always loves to knock QBs out of the game. It's a risky tactic.

3) Some QBs were great runners - like Steve Young and Mike Vick. But they open themselves up for major injury. Just ask Steve Young about the 1996 Wild card game vs. Philly - did that affect the Niner's season, ya think?

If McCarthy really wants to use the sneak with Rodgers, it should only be used in total desperation - certainly not 3 times in a preseason game.

[Pacopete4]

It's not a big knock, but the fact we were just 36% successful on 3rd and 1 or 4th and 1 shows that we could use a QB that can run for a first down in short yardage situations. No doubt about it.

Never had a problem til this zone blocking scheme came into play... maybe we shoulda stuck with the big beefers that actually knew how to move people and create holes..

[Zool]

Too much is made of the ZBS. Here's a good writeup from Easterbrook.



Houston now has Alex Gibbs -- the guy who directed the blocking for the Denver rushing game which made [Insert Name Here] into star tailbacks. Gibbs is coaching the Texans' offensive line and bearing the title assistant head coach. Because most sportswriters don't understand how the Gibbs blocking system works, they call it "zone blocking." That's like calling all short passing attacks a West Coast offense. (TMQ has long believed most full-time football writers and sportscasters cannot diagram most standard football tactics.) It's not so much that Gibbs-coached offensive lines block an area rather than a specific man, many offensive lines do this at least some of the time. What's distinctive about the Gibbs system is that it involves deliberate blocking in the back.

Deliberate blocking in the back is legal inside the "free blocking" zone, the area close to the line of scrimmage and between the offensive tackles at the snap. Gibbs-coached offensive linemen press the envelop on the free-blocking rule. Rather than driving toward a defender or pulling, Gibbs-coached linemen slide to the play side on many rushing downs and try to slam the nearest playside defender in his back. The Gibbs system also teaches deliberate low blocking, which is legal in two instances, a fact poorly understood. It's an illegal chop block if one offensive lineman engages a defender and stands him up, then a second offensive lineman hits the defender low. But if one offensive lineman hits the defender high and another hits him low simultaneously, that's kosher. Or if a blocker makes initial contact with a defender's hands, it is legal for the blocker to slide down low on the defender's body. This is why defensive linemen are coached to get their hands on an offensive lineman's shoulder pads or back; once this happens, the offensive lineman cannot legally slide low.

In-line play in the free-blocking zone is chaotic, with players on both sides trying to get away with holding or other fouls, and constant confusion regarding whose hands are legally where. But Gibbs has studied the quirks of blocking rules and relentlessly coaches his players to hit low or in the back within the rules. The goal is not exactly to try to injure the defender; rather, to force the defender to protect himself against injury by guarding his knees and not turning his back. A front-seven player who is concerned about protecting his knees and back will be less effective as a defender.

[mraynrand]

Or if a blocker makes initial contact with a defender's hands, it is legal for the blocker to slide down low on the defender's body. This is why defensive linemen are coached to get their hands on an offensive lineman's shoulder pads or back; once this happens, the offensive lineman cannot legally slide low.

Should read illegal, right? I didn't know this about the defenders' hands - so once engaged above, the lineman cannot slide down to block. Sounds kinda like the rules for dancing the lambada.

[Zool]

Thats the part that threw me too. It appears that if the OL makes initial contact he can slide low, but not vise versa? The rules are tough to follow for that. Low contact causes injuries, but where do you draw the line? Sometimes hitting a guy in the thigh with a shoulder is the easiest way to bring him down but get too low and you hit a knee. POP.

Mainly its more to show that the ZBS isnt so foreign to power schemes as far as philosophy.

[Guiness]

Interesting article, Zool. You da man :P
Was this the whole article? Got a link?

The part about sliding low is confusing to me as well.

I always thought one of the hallmarks of his scheme was the cut block on the non-play side to stop backside pursuit. At least, we heard a lot about that, and how our tackles were having difficulty with it.

There's always a lot of talk about chop blocking...but this is the first I've heard about blocking in the back. Is that something the Pack does a lot of?

Damn, damn, damn I wish there was some way to get some film other than the stuff that shows up on the network. I actually enjoy watching and analyzing game film, and would LOVE to have footage from a camera that pointed at the line for the whole game.

[Zool]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/080819

[Freak Out]

Sneaking and running around like Vick and Young did are completely different deals...a good sneak is just a one yard or less plunge behind the center or guard and laying down..if it works great but stay low...guys that tried to go over the top seemed to always get hammered and never made it...they just seemed to give free shots to the D.
M3 running the sneak with Rodgers three times in a preseason game does seem just a little crazy all things considered.

[pbmax]

I know the free blocking zone he seems to be describing allows for things that cannot go on in other parts of the field, but is blocking in the back legal there as well? I don't remember that being in any description I have read.

Thats the part that threw me too. It appears that if the OL makes initial contact he can slide low, but not vise versa? The rules are tough to follow for that. Low contact causes injuries, but where do you draw the line? Sometimes hitting a guy in the thigh with a shoulder is the easiest way to bring him down but get too low and you hit a knee. POP.

Mainly its more to show that the ZBS isnt so foreign to power schemes as far as philosophy.