How can Rodgers improve?

[th87]

I'm pretty happy with the way Rodgers has progressed. He's only 24, and if he's allowed to, he should improve.

A couple things he should work on:

1. When the pressure comes, he has a tendency to run away from it, usually to the right. Our old quarterback developed the ability to "slide" away - take two steps here, one step there. Very subtle movements. Rodgers hasn't yet developed that - he tries to speed away, taking his eyes off the play for a moment to escape. Favre used to have this problem too - remember the seasons where he'd think the pressure was coming before they actually did?

2. Rodgers needs to get better at recognizing the defense and where the blitzes are coming from. The old quarterback had an uncanny tendency to call out protection audibles while scanning the defense pre-snap. Remember last year - he'd use a big chunk of the play clock to shift people around and get things in order. Rodgers will need to really study to get to that level. Probably won't happen this year. Lucky for us, he's smart.

Also, the o-line has played horribly. We've had to go max-protect for a number of our plays. We haven't really had to do that since two seasons ago. Obviously, max-protect limits the plays and the innovations that can be used, which has affected the offense as a whole, and has hindered Rodgers' effectiveness. Once (if) the line steps up, we can abandon max-protect, and the offense should be operating competently.

[packerbacker1234]

Re: How can Rodgers improve?

1. When the pressure comes, he has a tendency to run away from it, usually to the right. Our old quarterback developed the ability to "slide" away - take two steps here, one step there. Very subtle movements. Rodgers hasn't yet developed that - he tries to speed away, taking his eyes off the play for a moment to escape. Favre used to have this problem too - remember the seasons where he'd think the pressure was coming before they actually did?

Yet, Favre still performed well in those seasons, and situations. Still, I never expect Rodgers to learn those Subtle movements that Favre had. Why? Very few QB's int he league, even some of the best, can do those movements. It just always seemed to be something that only favre really was doing. Why? Don't know. Maybe other teams just expect there line to prevent pressure 90% of the time. Still, he has to get better at handling pressure in that he can't be holding on to that ball back there for 3, 4 ,5+ seconds. Even on his last play with the guy coming free, he had just short of three seconds to throw the ball. With this line, he should know by now it was to come out quick. He needs to improve, but I don't think learning the favre movements is the best way, simply because very few QB's need that to be successful.

2. Rodgers needs to get better at recognizing the defense and where the blitzes are coming from. The old quarterback had an uncanny tendency to call out protection audibles while scanning the defense pre-snap. Remember last year - he'd use a big chunk of the play clock to shift people around and get things in order. Rodgers will need to really study to get to that level. Probably won't happen this year. Lucky for us, he's smart.

I'm not sure how much "studing" favre needed to do. In fact, many years of Favre's success (say, the first 5), Favre couldn't read defenses worth anything. He had no idea what the difference was with a nickel defense and a 4- 3, and wasn't very good at telling blitzs and such (part of the reason he moved early in the pocket without pressure was him thinking there was a blitz on). I do not expect Rodgers to be favre. It's unreasonable too. Just saying, using Favre as an exmaple last season... favre never really NEEDED to do that, it's just something favre developed in himself over the course of 16 years. Rodger's needs A LOT of PLAYING TIME to get to that point. Film studying can only go so far, and I am sure he does plenty of it.

Also, the o-line has played horribly. We've had to go max-protect for a number of our plays. We haven't really had to do that since two seasons ago. Obviously, max-protect limits the plays and the innovations that can be used, which has affected the offense as a whole, and has hindered Rodgers' effectiveness. Once (if) the line steps up, we can abandon max-protect, and the offense should be operating competently.

You know why we are going max protect, right? Sure, maybe the pressure is there - but on the normal three step drop decision throw (average of 2 seconds fromt he time of the ball snap), the plays aren't happening. The slants, the fake and go. The ins, outs, etc. For some reason, whatever passing offense we had last season, is suddenly changing.

Look at the Jets. This last game, their offense looked similar to what the packers ran ran last year. Slants with one or two doing something down field. The packers aren't doing that naymore, and no one knows why. Best cure for a QB when he is getting pressure isn't adding more protection, it's giving him plays that he can easily beat the pressure. Also, it's as if your suggesting he never has time. Last game, he had an average of 4.3 seconds per pass attempt before either throwing the ball, or getting hit/taking a sack. 4.3 seconds. You know that is a lifetime int he nfl to make decisions back there. He just isn't as fast as he needs to be. Do I think the OL needs to improve? Sure I do, but in rush blocking, not pass blocking. AR has plenty of time on 90% of his pass attempts. Run blocking is what is killing us with the line.

[th87]

Re: How can Rodgers improve?

Yet, Favre still performed well in those seasons, and situations. Still, I never expect Rodgers to learn those Subtle movements that Favre had. Why? Very few QB's int he league, even some of the best, can do those movements. It just always seemed to be something that only favre really was doing. Why? Don't know. Maybe other teams just expect there line to prevent pressure 90% of the time. Still, he has to get better at handling pressure in that he can't be holding on to that ball back there for 3, 4 ,5+ seconds. Even on his last play with the guy coming free, he had just short of three seconds to throw the ball. With this line, he should know by now it was to come out quick. He needs to improve, but I don't think learning the favre movements is the best way, simply because very few QB's need that to be successful.

It's the fourth game of the season. Favre needed some time to settle down in earlier seasons. Remember when he'd overthrow receivers on the first and second drives? Give Rodgers that patience too.

That movement is NOT unique to Favre. Sure, Favre is probably one of the best at it, but Rodgers can be 75-80% as good at it. That is plenty. Brady has that sense, both Mannings have that sense, Rivers, etc. That's just part of being a veteran that doesn't take too many sacks. Rodgers can certainly develop this skill.

I'm not sure how much "studing" favre needed to do. In fact, many years of Favre's success (say, the first 5), Favre couldn't read defenses worth anything. He had no idea what the difference was with a nickel defense and a 4- 3, and wasn't very good at telling blitzs and such (part of the reason he moved early in the pocket without pressure was him thinking there was a blitz on). I do not expect Rodgers to be favre. It's unreasonable too. Just saying, using Favre as an exmaple last season... favre never really NEEDED to do that, it's just something favre developed in himself over the course of 16 years. Rodger's needs A LOT of PLAYING TIME to get to that point. Film studying can only go so far, and I am sure he does plenty of it.

Favre might not have known the terminology (I also dispute the accuracy of that anecdote - sounds exaggerated), but he certainly knew what they were going to do. He wouldn't have lasted this long if he didn't.

But you're right - Favre DEVELOPED the instincts. They weren't always there. Sure, his upside in terms of instincts was probably higher than Rodgers', but like I said, if Rodgers develops this instinct to 75-80% of Favre's, we're in good shape. This is not out of the ordinary - he just needs to be allowed to grow.

You know why we are going max protect, right? Sure, maybe the pressure is there - but on the normal three step drop decision throw (average of 2 seconds fromt he time of the ball snap), the plays aren't happening. The slants, the fake and go. The ins, outs, etc. For some reason, whatever passing offense we had last season, is suddenly changing.

Look at the Jets. This last game, their offense looked similar to what the packers ran ran last year. Slants with one or two doing something down field. The packers aren't doing that naymore, and no one knows why. Best cure for a QB when he is getting pressure isn't adding more protection, it's giving him plays that he can easily beat the pressure. Also, it's as if your suggesting he never has time. Last game, he had an average of 4.3 seconds per pass attempt before either throwing the ball, or getting hit/taking a sack. 4.3 seconds. You know that is a lifetime int he nfl to make decisions back there. He just isn't as fast as he needs to be. Do I think the OL needs to improve? Sure I do, but in rush blocking, not pass blocking. AR has plenty of time on 90% of his pass attempts. Run blocking is what is killing us with the line.

Max protect is happening because without it, Rodgers hasn't been getting any protection whatsoever. When he's not getting protection, we can't run our bread and butter plays. It's just that simple.

We used max protect with Favre too for nearly the entire 2006 season. Why? Because the line couldn't protect Favre long enough to run productive plays. In 2007, the line suddenly got it together, so max protect was abandoned, and the offense was opened up. Now, the line has regressed again, and max protect has made a comeback. It's easy to see the correlation.

I highly doubt your 4.3 second figure is accurate. Where did you get it? Is that with or without max protect? If it's with max protect, then you have to account for there being one less receiver out there, making it more difficult to make plays.

So let's recap:

Max protect with Favre = sucky offense.
Max protect with Rodgers = sucky offense.
Max protect with Jason Campbell = sucky offense (Gibbs ran this type of offense).

No max protect with Favre = 2007's amazing offense.
No max protect with Rodgers = 2008's early effective offense.
No max protect with Campbell = a more explosive offense.

In sum, it's all about the offensive line.

[Zool]

Re: How can Rodgers improve?

It's the fourth game of the season. Favre needed some time to settle down in earlier seasons. Remember when he'd overthrow receivers on the first and second drives? Give Rodgers that patience too.

Good luck with that. Plenty of people wanted Favre run out of town in 93 and 94. Its the same type of people who are here bitching about his replacement now. His replacement could end being a HOF QB, but that wouldnt matter because he's struggled for 2 games right now.


"Same as it ever was."

[packerbacker1234]

Wait. Max Protect is being done because we can't run our bread and butter?

The bread and butter is the slant. A three step drop and throw pass. Is rodgers able to make the three step drop untouched? Check. Does he have time to throw it immediatly after said drop? Check.


I also put a lot on the coaching. How many slant plays are even being ran? Don't change what isn't broke. He's not brett, but it's a bread and butter easy play, that can be completed with ZERO protection. Slants are quick passes designed for lack of protection/pretection beating plays.

[MOBB DEEP]

enroll in southern miss instead of overrated cal

[MOBB DEEP]

ok, that was stupid

[Zool]

ok, that was stupid

Agreed.

Other stellar So Miss QB's include:

Jeff Kelly 2002
Reggie Collier 1983
Val Keckin 1961 -Drafted by the Pack BTW
George Herring 1960


A long and rich QB history.

[prsnfoto]

Rodgers will improve with time his major problem right now is he is to slow at reading plays and the turtle has given him an O-line at least in the middle that is worse than most college programs lines THEY ABSOLUTELY SUCK BALLS and Ted likes that!

[mraynrand]

Experience - there is no substitute.

[BZnDallas]

Rodgers will improve with time his major problem right now is he is to slow at reading plays and the turtle has given him an O-line at least in the middle that is worse than most college programs lines THEY ABSOLUTELY SUCK BALLS and Ted likes that!

seriously, give it a rest... same old bitching and moaning... its the same line that blocked for grants almost 1000 yards last year in the last 10 games... its the same line that helped brett have one of the fewest sacks in the season last year (i know it wasnt all the line and bretts veteran savy helped with that)... but it was the first game the oline has played together since last year...

this is a work in progress, super bowls and playoff appearances aren't won in september... give the line time go gel, give rodgers time to do his thing... lets not all go and jump off a fucking bridge b/c they lost to a pretty good TB team...

i swear some of ya'll sound like children... GIMME GIMME GIMME!!! I WANT I WANT I WANT!!!! have a lil patience, and see where this thing ends up... for being the youngest team in the league, i can still see division champs and playoffs in our future... thats pretty good!...

[BZnDallas]

prsnfoto... sorry that wasn't all aimed at you... just letting go some steam after reading too much bull-shit on this message board since the loss yesterday... i agree with you... AR needs a bit more time and reading defenses will come with experience... my bad!

[Partial]

experience and time

[Carolina_Packer]

I give the defense of the Bucs and Monte Kiffin some credit too. We had some decent plays on offense, but too much pressure on A-Rod. We aren't a stone wall on the offensive line by any means, which means A-Rod will have to find passing lanes with his feet sometimes. I think his first pick was on B-Jack for sure, his second to Ruud and last to Adams were bad, especially the one to Adams. He could have had a couple of more. He didn't handle the pressure as well as he has.

Is that all on Rodgers? Of course not. The running game does not add enough to the mix to keep defenses guessing, and if our O-line can't stop pressure from Tampa's front 4, then that allows their backers and DB's to drop into coverage, and makes it harder for guys to get open. To me, this is on the O-line and Grant, who missed cutback lanes that he found last year. Rust perhaps? If they can't run the ball more effectively and A-Rod keeps getting pressure from a front 4, the offense will continue to struggle.

The trend the last two games is that the defense gets worn down by the end of the game, but yesterday, I saw poor fundementals with the pad level and tackling, like it was pre-season. Tampa didn't do anything particulary scary. They didn't torch us for big gains on offense, save for the long run at the end, and Griese did turn the ball over. We were banged up and shot ourselves in the foot by not being able to run the ball effectively, and not protecting well enough to give Rodgers a chance to consistently do his job. Too many blown drives, our defense wears down by the end, and that has been the recipe the last two games. Can this get better? Hope so. We have a bad pattern going the last two games.

[th87]

Wait. Max Protect is being done because we can't run our bread and butter?

The bread and butter is the slant. A three step drop and throw pass. Is rodgers able to make the three step drop untouched? Check. Does he have time to throw it immediatly after said drop? Check.


I also put a lot on the coaching. How many slant plays are even being ran? Don't change what isn't broke. He's not brett, but it's a bread and butter easy play, that can be completed with ZERO protection. Slants are quick passes designed for lack of protection/pretection beating plays.

Except when they jump the routes - which is what they're doing. When there's nothing else to beat them deep, they can jump the routes all day.

The coaches aren't stupid. They happen to remember what worked for them last year, believe it or not.

So when they jump the routes, the Packers are forced to try something else. And because other things require protection, they can't run that something else. Therefore, they're stuck in max protect with a limited playbook. Or slants with defenders jumping the routes. Lose-lose situations.

Why didn't we run as many slants in 2006 (with Favre)? Again, because teams were jumping the routes. We didn't have the intermediate/deep ball to keep defenders playing off. This was because of max protect subtracting a receiver, giving the defense a coverage advantage.