Notes: Harrell expected to provide relief at DT

[Zool]

Career stats
Games played 86
Games started 47

[Gunakor]

Mandarach was a washout after a few years in the NFL, he stuck that long just based on potential and draft position. Then he left the NFL entirely for a couple years. Returned and became an OK starter for several seasons.

Probably he needed the years off to train.

Saying that he had a 9-year career is a little misleading. Maybe you are right that he wasn't a bust, in that he came back successfully. Certainly he was a huge bust in his first NFL stint.

I can agree with you there. He was certainly a bust for the Packers. I'm not going to dispute that one at all. Just sayin he's not Jamal Reynolds or something like that - he actually did make a career for himself and thus is not an overall bust IMO.

[Patler]

Mandarich said recently that he took massive amounts of steroids in college, and the last time he took a steroid was shortly after the NFL draft. (I heard this second hand from Tarek Saleh on his radio show.)

It seems to me that Mandarich committed a massive fraud. And then he denied ever taking steroids for about 10 years.

I suppose screwing the NFL is not like cheating a person, but it still seems pretty crummy.

I believe he also admitted to cheating on the pre-draft urine test, using "clean" urine from someone else. If you or I did that or anything similar, we would be guilty of fraud. Yet, in sports, it seems like whatever you can get away with is OK.

[cheesner]

What is a bust? Mandarich played 9 NFL seasons. I just can't call any player who is good enough to last 9 seasons in the NFL a bust. Regardless of where he was drafted. That's twice the average NFL career. I'd call him a disappointment, but seeing as how he forged a fairly lengthy career in the pros I can't call him a complete bust. I think people generally call him one of the biggest busts in NFL history simply because of who was drafted immediately after him, and don't even realize he played as long as he did. IMO a 9 year player isn't a bust.

He played from 89-92 as a Packer and from 96-98 as a colt, or 7 seasons.

He was on a roster for 86 games but only played in 47.

That would be great for a 5th round draft choice, but when you come in with the expectations people had for this guy, and in 7 years you develop into a marginal player, that is a bust. He was a monster in college, the only college player to ever make the all-Madden team. When the Pack drafted him the ESPN announcer said he was destined for Canton. There has not been a player with as much hype since Mandarich, so I think people not following the draft back then won't understand.

[Tony Oday]

We should be able to get the signing bonus back from him and his contract because he is a liar

[Gunakor]

What is a bust? Mandarich played 9 NFL seasons. I just can't call any player who is good enough to last 9 seasons in the NFL a bust. Regardless of where he was drafted. That's twice the average NFL career. I'd call him a disappointment, but seeing as how he forged a fairly lengthy career in the pros I can't call him a complete bust. I think people generally call him one of the biggest busts in NFL history simply because of who was drafted immediately after him, and don't even realize he played as long as he did. IMO a 9 year player isn't a bust.

He played from 89-92 as a Packer and from 96-98 as a colt, or 7 seasons.

He was on a roster for 86 games but only played in 47.

That would be great for a 5th round draft choice, but when you come in with the expectations people had for this guy, and in 7 years you develop into a marginal player, that is a bust. He was a monster in college, the only college player to ever make the all-Madden team. When the Pack drafted him the ESPN announcer said he was destined for Canton. There has not been a player with as much hype since Mandarich, so I think people not following the draft back then won't understand.

So your definition of a bust is one who does not live up to the hype. That is where we differ. If you do not live up to the hype but still manage to forge even a marginal career in the NFL then I'd call you a disappointment. If you do not make it at all, even as a marginal player, then and only then would I call you a bust. Besides, as I recall he wasn't a marginal player at Indy, rather he was an average player at Indy. Marginal would be Tony Moll at RG for the Packers, and that's not what Madarich looked like with the Colts.

[Pugger]

yes, Mandarich was a disappointment but he did have a decent career. I guess the higher you're picked determines if you are a 'bust' or not. The Pack has had a few of these, like other teams have had: A. Carroll, J. Reynolds, Rich Campbell come to mind.

[Gunakor]

yes, Mandarich was a disappointment but he did have a decent career. I guess the higher you're picked determines if you are a 'bust' or not. The Pack has had a few of these, like other teams have had: A. Carroll, J. Reynolds, Rich Campbell come to mind.

Carroll, like Mandarich, was a bust for the Packers. But, like Mandarich, is doing an average job in another uniform and thus can't be called a complete bust either. Jamal Reynolds is my definition of a bust. Didn't cut it with the Packers, didn't cut it with anyone else, and did not last in the NFL.

[cheesner]

yes, Mandarich was a disappointment but he did have a decent career. I guess the higher you're picked determines if you are a 'bust' or not. The Pack has had a few of these, like other teams have had: A. Carroll, J. Reynolds, Rich Campbell come to mind.

Carroll, like Mandarich, was a bust for the Packers. But, like Mandarich, is doing an average job in another uniform and thus can't be called a complete bust either. Jamal Reynolds is my definition of a bust. Didn't cut it with the Packers, didn't cut it with anyone else, and did not last in the NFL.

Semantics, I suppose. To me a FA pick up who gets cut a few years, keeps trying and then makes it with the Colts as an Average player for 3 season is a success. A guy coming in who is supposed to be a dominant force and the best player to enter the NFL since John Elway, and then cannot even start for the worst team in the NFL - that is a bust - even if he tries a comeback after a few years and is an average player. 2 players, identical careers and one is a bust and one is a success.

Regardless, I would never call Mandarich's career as 'decent'.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Carroll, like Mandarich, was a bust for the Packers. But, like Mandarich, is doing an average job in another uniform and thus can't be called a complete bust either.

Carroll is a good comparison.

[DonHutson]

Gunakor, you make a valid defense for your argument, but I guess I do have a different definition of bust. To me it does come down to a differential between expectations and production.

The hype surrounding Mandarich does make him a bigger bust, in the sense that the hype was due to very high expectations. The quality of the players taken after him contribute to his bust status as well, in my opinion. It's not a real big surprise that Barry Sanders ended up in the Hall of Fame. There are no sure things, but Sanders was as electric a RB as I've seen in college football. To pass on a player like Sanders just points to how dominant Mandarich was supposed to be. The same with Dieon Sanders and Derrick Thomas.

Now some of the hype was also due to Mandarich's personality. Everybody likes to see a loudmouth asshole like him fall on his face. I'm sure that's a big part of the reason that he's at the top of the bust lists with the likes of Ryan Leaf and Brian Bosworth while some less flamboyant players get a pass. People like to see these guys fail, it makes good reading, they get on the lists. That part of the equation probably isn't fair, but that's only part of it.

The fact that so much of those high expectations were built on, as Harlan puts it, a fraudulent foundation adds to his bust status as well, in my opinion. He built up those expectations through illegal means, so let his rep take the hit when he had to stop taking steroids and he couldn't deliver as a player.

The way I see it, he was touted as a once in a lifetime OL prospect, the kind you pass on a once in a generation RB, CB, or pass rushing LB for without giving it a second thought. A couple of marginal years with some pretty crappy Colts teams in no way comes anywhere near the expectations laid out for him. Therefore he is a colossal bust.

I don't really see the Carroll situation as anything close to this one. Carroll was picked at the end of the first round. Most scouts didn't have him ranked that high. He really should've been a second or third rounder. I would call Carroll a bust too, but a much lesser one because the expectations for him were far less extravagent.

[cheesner]

Gunakor, you make a valid defense for your argument, but I guess I do have a different definition of bust. To me it does come down to a differential between expectations and production.

The hype surrounding Mandarich does make him a bigger bust, in the sense that the hype was due to very high expectations. The quality of the players taken after him contribute to his bust status as well, in my opinion. It's not a real big surprise that Barry Sanders ended up in the Hall of Fame. There are no sure things, but Sanders was as electric a RB as I've seen in college football. To pass on a player like Sanders just points to how dominant Mandarich was supposed to be. The same with Dieon Sanders and Derrick Thomas.

Now some of the hype was also due to Mandarich's personality. Everybody likes to see a loudmouth asshole like him fall on his face. I'm sure that's a big part of the reason that he's at the top of the bust lists with the likes of Ryan Leaf and Brian Bosworth while some less flamboyant players get a pass. People like to see these guys fail, it makes good reading, they get on the lists. That part of the equation probably isn't fair, but that's only part of it.

The fact that so much of those high expectations were built on, as Harlan puts it, a fraudulent foundation adds to his bust status as well, in my opinion. He built up those expectations through illegal means, so let his rep take the hit when he had to stop taking steroids and he couldn't deliver as a player.

The way I see it, he was touted as a once in a lifetime OL prospect, the kind you pass on a once in a generation RB, CB, or pass rushing LB for without giving it a second thought. A couple of marginal years with some pretty crappy Colts teams in no way comes anywhere near the expectations laid out for him. Therefore he is a colossal bust.

I don't really see the Carroll situation as anything close to this one. Carroll was picked at the end of the first round. Most scouts didn't have him ranked that high. He really should've been a second or third rounder. I would call Carroll a bust too, but a much lesser one because the expectations for him were far less extravagent.

Very well written. I think you really had to live through the Mandarich era to understand it. He was expected to revolutionize the way the game was played. They created the term 'pancake' block for him because every game he would destroy several players. I remember they would show his highlights weekly as a part of ESPN. Have you ever seen OL highlights as a regular staple of any sports show?

[bobblehead]

Hype has everything to do with the bust status. How is mandarich more of a bust than these #1 and #2 overall picks?

Kijana Carter, Blair Thomas, Steve emtman, Akili Smith.

Those are off the top of my head, but the list could go on and on. The NFL draft is a tough business, but GM's are starting to figure that out. Most have figured out which positions you "gamble" with in the first round and which you leave alone. I like TT's approach....in 4 drafts he:

1) took a talented QB that slipped
2) took a completed product (although LB isn't usually a top 5 position)
3) took a massive human being (who hasn't panned out yet)
4) traded it cuz no one stood out.

He hasn't taken end of the round RB's or LB's. He hasn't reached for a player who he knows might very well flop. He aquires picks, creates competition and figures out who is a hard worker and a player before they have to shell out huge money. In the middle rounds he takes a shot here and there at guys with huge upside who weren't given the right shot in college (blackman type). I like it so far.

[retailguy]

How is mandarich more of a bust than these #1 and #2 overall picks?

Kijana Carter, Blair Thomas, Steve emtman, Akili Smith.

Akili Smith was the 3rd pick, not one or two. doesnt' alter your point but still... Smith was clearly a bust, however Carter and Emtman were busts largely due to injuries. Carter tore his ACL on his 3rd preseason carry, and his speed never returned. Emtman tore up his knee during his rookie year and battled injuries throughout his career. Thomas had a bunch of nagging injuries as I recall but nothing truly major like the other two.

Mandarich was never an "injury" machine, he just wasn't ready to play. He clearly fooled hundreds of people. He had a lengthy contract holdout as a rookie, pumped up a bunch of hype and then didn't perform. He had attitude issues throughout his 4 year packers career, and was just a pain in the ass.

To me, THAT is the difference.

[mraynrand]

Hype has everything to do with the bust status. How is mandarich more of a bust than these #1 and #2 overall picks?

Kijana Carter, Blair Thomas, Steve emtman, Akili Smith.

Those are off the top of my head, but the list could go on and on. The NFL draft is a tough business, but GM's are starting to figure that out. Most have figured out which positions you "gamble" with in the first round and which you leave alone. I like TT's approach....in 4 drafts he:

1) took a talented QB that slipped
2) took a completed product (although LB isn't usually a top 5 position)
3) took a massive human being (who hasn't panned out yet)
4) traded it cuz no one stood out.

He hasn't taken end of the round RB's or LB's. He hasn't reached for a player who he knows might very well flop. He aquires picks, creates competition and figures out who is a hard worker and a player before they have to shell out huge money. In the middle rounds he takes a shot here and there at guys with huge upside who weren't given the right shot in college (blackman type). I like it so far.

And above all else, you find more picks, because in the first three or four rounds, only about a third of all picks become productive starters. You are just going to have 60-70% attrition, maybe a bit less if you really are a good drafter. The more picks you have, the better your shot at a contributor.