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  • Illegal forward pass?

    pft.com

    LAST WORD (FOR NOW) ON THE “ILLEGAL FORWARD PASS” CALL
    Posted by Mike Florio on November 10, 2008, 8:53 a.m.
    Given the number of comments and e-mails generated by our item from last night regarding referee Alberto Riveron’s curious decision to flag Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers for an “illegal forward pass” that resulted in a safety, we need to clarify a couple of things.

    Our theory on this is that Riveron initially wanted to rule that Rodgers had committed intentional grounding, but that Riveron’s crew persuaded him that the Favre-style desperation underhand throw wasn’t intentional grounding, most likely because a receiver was in the general vicinity of the ball. (The official rules also permit a quarterback who’s outside the pocket to throw the ball to an area away from any receiver, as long as the ball lands “near or beyond” the line of scrimmage. And contrary to what folks might be finding elsewhere via Google, the official rules use the term “near or beyond” when describing what a quarterback who’s outside the pocket must do to avoid intentional grounding.)

    And so, because Riveron likely was troubled by the notion that a quarterback could make an ungainly, stumbling heave in order to avoid a safety, we believe that Riveron decided to find a way to award the safety by calling the thing an illegal forward pass.

    But it simply wasn’t an “illegal forward pass.” It was a legal and appropriate pass. If it had been caught, no flag would have been thrown.

    The question is whether it was intentional grounding; since Riveron didn’t call it intentional grounding, we can only assume that he and his crew decided that it wasn’t. And since in 35-plus years of watching pro and college football games we’ve never heard “intentional grounding” described as an “illegal forward pass,” we’re convinced that Riveron was bending the rules on the fly to fit the outcome that he believed was appropriate.

    In our view, Riveron focused more on the ugly initiation of the pass than on where it landed. Watch the video. The ball lands in the vicinity of a Packers receiver, and it was potentially catchable.

    It was far more catchable (or, more accurately, far less uncatchable) than the ball that Giants quarterback Eli Manning spiked to the ground a yard or so from the feet of tight end Kevin Boss last night. That maneuver didn’t draw a flag, and the absence of a penalty for intentional grounding prompted loud boos from the Philly faithful. (Amazingly, the usually rock-solid duo of Al Michaels and John Madden said nothing about the non-call, or the crowd’s reaction to it.)

    Bottom line? As one commenter has pointed out, Riveron tried to base the call on Rodgers’ intent. In so doing, Riveron ignored the rules. For a first-year referee who surely hopes to stick around much longer than that, this was worse that simply blowing a call. Riveron placed his own beliefs above the plain terms of the rule book.

    And while the NFL will rally around Riveron’s post-game attempt to equate an illegal forward pass with intentional grounding in order to avoid drawing further attention to the mistakes that officials have made this season, we hope that the powers-that-be explain to Riveron in no uncertain terms that a big part of exercising judgment is realizing when not to do so.

  • #2
    that sucks...
    Swede: My expertise in this area is extensive. The essential difference between a "battleship" and an "aircraft carrier" is that an aircraft carrier requires five direct hits to sink, but it takes only four direct hits to sink a battleship.

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    • #3
      by the refs ruling . Favre should have been flagged during the playoff game (Seattle) when he flicked it to Donald Lee...

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      • #4
        I don't like to complain about call during a game, you win some and you lose some. Sure, the no-call on the first series of Offenssive-Pass-Interf on Rice against Williams which on the next play resulted in a TD(thats a 4 point swing) and then the questionable Illegal Contact on Al Harris when we stopped them on third down. Then the Illegal Forward Pass.

        I have two Issues:

        1) Why didn't MM push it more? I've seen some game where the coach actually used a challenge to prove that there was a receiver in the area or that the ball got "near" the line.......he seemed to give in and let it go.

        2) If the league is going to fine players, coaches and whomever for calling out bad calls, then they sure the heck better start fining the refs themselves for blown calls. I understand that people make mistakes, but to huddle-up with other refs and arrive at the same conclusion is just silly. The league at least needs to apologize to the teams for the mistakes and clarify the ruling.
        If you don't like me....bite me...
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        • #5
          The way the game went yesterday we should all be grateful it wasnt a defensive TD.

          I think the slapping motion was what got it called but the intent to the TE was there and Rodgers was looking up at his target. Bad call but he shouldnt have fumbled the damn thing to begin with.

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          • #6
            I thought for sure when I checked the forum after the game that every thread would have this title. What a terrible call that was.
            70% of the Earth is covered by water. The rest is covered by Al Harris.

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            • #7
              Again I Tivoed the game, and I have watched this play several times. Rodgers as he is going down actually turned his head and appeared to look right at Tory Humphrey. His momentum sort of spun him around, so he ended up looking at the dirt as he threw, and he was probably trying to get rid of it as much as anything, but I feel quite sure that he knew Humphrey was there as he tried to get the ball into that general area, but it came up quite a few yards short.

              The ball skittered right to where Humphrey was, and I thought after conferring, the officials might decide there was no penalty because of that. It was such an awkward play their judgment was clouded.

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              • #8
                The Refs are fucking idiots...why huddle at all if you are going to make a stupid call that goes against all the rules? Take your time and get it right. That call gave one team points and the ball and it was wrong. Fucking idiots.
                C.H.U.D.

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                • #9
                  that article proves what I said at the time. the ref wanted to call intentional grounding but was wrong so he made a call with the same result.....but it was even more blatantly wrong. throwing underhand forward is legal...PERIOD!! He should be fired as should the entire crew for conferring and still blowing it. That one play likely cost us a win....that and the phantom hold on college.
                  The only time success comes before work is in the dictionary -- Vince Lombardi

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by bobblehead
                    that article proves what I said at the time. the ref wanted to call intentional grounding but was wrong so he made a call with the same result.....but it was even more blatantly wrong. throwing underhand forward is legal...PERIOD!! He should be fired as should the entire crew for conferring and still blowing it. That one play likely cost us a win....that and the phantom hold on college.
                    Yup that play literally lost us the game. I think it's safe to say that we don't get a first down there so we punt. The only difference being is that Minnesota doesn't have 2 more points. So final score 27 - 26 we win.

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                    • #11
                      I'm usually not one to blame refs for a loss. But there were a lot of really questionable calls in that game. Most of the going against the Pack.
                      GO PACK!!!!

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                      • #12
                        yeah bad call, and something that really could have changed he face of the game

                        that 2 points was the difference between a win and loss

                        we would have punted, and they would have had the ball in almost the same spot as they had after the free kick. probably a little better. just without those damn 2 points

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                        • #13
                          I was at the game and my buddy who is a Viking fan said that Rodgers fumbled the ball and only Rodgers can then advance that fumble once recovered. He cannot throw the ball, he has to run with it as no one else can advance his fumble. The flip side is that the fumble occurred behind the line of scrimmage so it would make that scenario invalid as a fumble behind the line of scrimmage may be advanced by any player on the recovering team. The only case I could see where it should have been a safety would be the old "in the grasp", premature whistle. I can assure you that there was no whistle, it was a heads up play by Rodgers and it was by rule an incomplete pass. The refs were not good at all, there were many times the Vikings OL had our DL held up by their face masks with the ref looking right at them, no flags...
                          "Once the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the Republic.”
                          – Benjamin Franklin

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Merlin
                            I was at the game and my buddy who is a Viking fan said that Rodgers fumbled the ball and only Rodgers can then advance that fumble once recovered. He cannot throw the ball, he has to run with it as no one else can advance his fumble. The flip side is that the fumble occurred behind the line of scrimmage so it would make that scenario invalid as a fumble behind the line of scrimmage may be advanced by any player on the recovering team. The only case I could see where it should have been a safety would be the old "in the grasp", premature whistle. I can assure you that there was no whistle, it was a heads up play by Rodgers and it was by rule an incomplete pass. The refs were not good at all, there were many times the Vikings OL had our DL held up by their face masks with the ref looking right at them, no flags...
                            nope..that rule only applies to a forward fumble, not the same in this case.
                            If you don't like me....bite me...
                            ....want some, come get some!

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                            • #15
                              Actually the "forward fumble" rules in the NFL only come into play on 4th down, in the end zone, and after the 2 minute warning for a half. In all three of those scenarios, the fumbler must recover their own fumble for the ball to advance. Otherwise any offensive player can advance a fumble no matter where it occurs or where they recovered the ball from. College is a little different and has some whacked out "in the air" rule I don't fully understand for advancement of the ball by the offense I think. I had thought the fumble had to occur behind the line of scrimmage for the offense to advance it but I was mistaken.
                              "Once the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the Republic.”
                              – Benjamin Franklin

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