Another QB's late game performances

[prsnfoto]

Ya, it was the 4-12 season. What bothered me at the time was the excuses I heard that "Favre was just trying to win" even though he made some terrible plays on early downs with plenty of time remaining and the score close. Several times it was his turnovers that put the game out of reach.

In fairness, Favre did have a comeback win that season against Detroit and he scored enough 4th quarter points to hang on against Atlanta and thwart their comeback attempt. But 9 times he had quite poor late game performances.

That was a fucked up season all the way around. They were so close in so many games against good teams that they had no business playing competitive football against and yet Favre would overdue it. I think of the Bengals game again where he threw 3 or 4 picks, yet they only lost by 7 and the game was tied when Favre threw his last pick.

Is this season really so different? In its own way it is as screwed up as 2005 was.

Not even close they had no WR's for part of that season and were on the 7th or 8th string RB and playing with no offensive line, I admit no coach or GM can plan for that it would be like losing Woodsen, Kampman and all the LB for the whole season. THAT has not happened this year had twinkle toes had one legit backup for Jenkins and not completely fucked up the special teams by cutting Ryan and letting Tracy White go this team is fighting for a playoff spot. The defense is the problem this year because of a lack of depth and horrible drafting by TT(twinkle toes) if Harrell doesn't suck,Hawk doesn't suck and all the D-linemen and Poppinga are better than D players that he has drafted this season is a lot different. The O has been pretty healthy Grant has a 1000 yards Rodgers has the best WR's ever as a group in Packers history(as did Brett for his last season) again because of Twinkle Toes the only weakness is the line which is a little better than the D-line a C, they have had a couple injuries but they are all average at best as a group with 8 guys all about the same no dropoff if someone gets hurt there are no excuses for the offense this year.

[Patler]

Not even close they had no WR's for part of that season and were on the 7th or 8th string RB and playing with no offensive line, I admit no coach or GM can plan for that it would be like losing Woodsen, Kampman and all the LB for the whole season. THAT has not happened this year had twinkle toes had one legit backup for Jenkins and not completely fucked up the special teams by cutting Ryan and letting Tracy White go this team is fighting for a playoff spot. The defense is the problem this year because of a lack of depth and horrible drafting by TT(twinkle toes) if Harrell doesn't suck,Hawk doesn't suck and all the D-linemen and Poppinga are better than D players that he has drafted this season is a lot different. The O has been pretty healthy Grant has a 1000 yards Rodgers has the best WR's ever as a group in Packers history(as did Brett for his last season) again because of Twinkle Toes the only weakness is the line which is a little better than the D-line a C, they have had a couple injuries but they are all average at best as a group with 8 guys all about the same no dropoff if someone gets hurt there are no excuses for the offense this year.

I think it is a closer parallel than you are willing to admit, but perhaps more on the defensive side than on the offensive side.

No offensive line in 2005? True, but why? Poor play, not injuries. They "lost" two guards iin the off season, but Clifton and Tauscher started all 16 and Flanagan 14. The did not lose others to injury. This year Clifton and Tauscher had significant declines, especially Clifton, and overall the line has played as poorly as in 2005, with more games lost to injuries than in 2005. Driver started all 16 games in 2005 and had 86 receptions. The Packers had significant injuries in 2005, but some other teams lost more "starts" that year due to injuries than the Packers did.

Losing Jenkins for 12 games and Barnett for nearly half the season are similar to losing Walker and Green in 2005, but on the other side of the ball. Was Frost much different than BJ Sander in 2005? In 2008 the Packers have had so many safeties hurt that they don't even have enough to practice with at times, similar to the situation with WRs or RBs in 2005. Bigby has 7 starts and has played hurt in most of those. Essentially, he has been out most of the season. Harris missed 4..

It is starting to look like Packer starters will miss in the neighborhood of 40-45 games in 2008, which I think is fairly close to what the starters missed in 2005.

[Partial]

I think this team has 5x the talent of '05. We have two pro bowl receivers this year with great depth... We had Taco Wallace in '05. We have a first round pick as a third receiver... our second receiver in '05 was the midget returner from the CFL that is on the Bengals now.

in '05 we had an injured Ahman Green.. In '08 we have two healthy backs entering their prime, though Grant did start out unhealthy.

In '05 we had an aging, slow TE in Bubba.. in '08 we have a borderline pro-bowl TE in Donald Lee.

I could continue, but it would be tough to dispute that this team does not have more individual talent.

[prsnfoto]

Not even close they had no WR's for part of that season and were on the 7th or 8th string RB and playing with no offensive line, I admit no coach or GM can plan for that it would be like losing Woodsen, Kampman and all the LB for the whole season. THAT has not happened this year had twinkle toes had one legit backup for Jenkins and not completely fucked up the special teams by cutting Ryan and letting Tracy White go this team is fighting for a playoff spot. The defense is the problem this year because of a lack of depth and horrible drafting by TT(twinkle toes) if Harrell doesn't suck,Hawk doesn't suck and all the D-linemen and Poppinga are better than D players that he has drafted this season is a lot different. The O has been pretty healthy Grant has a 1000 yards Rodgers has the best WR's ever as a group in Packers history(as did Brett for his last season) again because of Twinkle Toes the only weakness is the line which is a little better than the D-line a C, they have had a couple injuries but they are all average at best as a group with 8 guys all about the same no dropoff if someone gets hurt there are no excuses for the offense this year.

I think it is a closer parallel than you are willing to admit, but perhaps more on the defensive side than on the offensive side.

No offensive line in 2005? True, but why? Poor play, not injuries. They "lost" two guards iin the off season, but Clifton and Tauscher started all 16 and Flanagan 14. The did not lose others to injury. This year Clifton and Tauscher had significant declines, especially Clifton, and overall the line has played as poorly as in 2005, with more games lost to injuries than in 2005. Driver started all 16 games in 2005 and had 86 receptions. The Packers had significant injuries in 2005, but some other teams lost more "starts" that year due to injuries than the Packers did.

Losing Jenkins for 12 games and Barnett for nearly half the season are similar to losing Walker and Green in 2005, but on the other side of the ball. Was Frost much different than BJ Sander in 2005? In 2008 the Packers have had so many safeties hurt that they don't even have enough to practice with at times, similar to the situation with WRs or RBs in 2005. Bigby has 7 starts and has played hurt in most of those. Essentially, he has been out most of the season. Harris missed 4..

It is starting to look like Packer starters will miss in the neighborhood of 40-45 games in 2008, which I think is fairly close to what the starters missed in 2005.

I respect the research Patler but I just don't see it the same losing the best RB in football over the previous 4-5 years and a top 5 WR at that time combined with a crappy O-line because TT has never thought G's are worth any $ is a far cry from losing a top 25 MLB and a top 50 DE-DT. I blame this season on poor coaching and poor planning(TT). Funny thing is with Favre I think they have a couple more wins but it would not have made the difference most thought, Rodgers has played good enough, management has let us all down and I have said this for weeks now, if they lose to the Lions they all gotta go now not after next year. That would be embarrassing beyond belief.

[Patler]

I think this team has 5x the talent of '05. We have two pro bowl receivers this year with great depth... We had Taco Wallace in '05. We have a first round pick as a third receiver... our second receiver in '05 was the midget returner from the CFL that is on the Bengals now.

in '05 we had an injured Ahman Green.. In '08 we have two healthy backs entering their prime, though Grant did start out unhealthy.

In '05 we had an aging, slow TE in Bubba.. in '08 we have a borderline pro-bowl TE in Donald Lee.

I could continue, but it would be tough to dispute that this team does not have more individual talent.

Kind of inaccurate in your comparison. In 2005 Driver had been to a Pro Bowl and was coming off a 2004 season with 80+ receptions for 1200+ yards, and performed comparably in 2005. Walker had been to a Pro Bowl, but was lost for the season. Bubba Franks was only 27 and actually had been to a number of Pro-Bowls. Are you really suggesting Lee is a borderline Pro Bowl player and better than Franks was in 2004/2005? In point of fact, only Driver on the 2008 team has actually been to a Pro Bowl among the receivers, but I will agree Jennings seems to be deserving. Tauscher and Clifton were in their prime in 2005. Flanagan was a year removed from the Pro Bowl. The guards were in flux, but the line had its leaders in the best years of their careers.

But more importantly, you are comparing only offense to offense. In 2005 I don't remember losing a starting DE, starting MLB, starting corner, a starting safety, etc. Injuries took a lot away from the offense in 2005. Injuries have taken a lot away from the defense in 2008.

[Patler]

I respect the research Patler but I just don't see it the same losing the best RB in football over the previous 4-5 years and a top 5 WR at that time combined with a crappy O-line because TT has never thought G's are worth any $ is a far cry from losing a top 25 MLB and a top 50 DE-DT. I blame this season on poor coaching and poor planning(TT). Funny thing is with Favre I think they have a couple more wins but it would not have made the difference most thought, Rodgers has played good enough, management has let us all down and I have said this for weeks now, if they lose to the Lions they all gotta go now not after next year. That would be embarrassing beyond belief.

I do not rate Walker as high as you, and I rate the losses of Jenkins and Barnett as more significant than you seem to.

I think it is unfair to say TT has never thought guards were worth any money. More accurately, within the salary cap available, he could not afford to pay Wahle and Rivera the kind of money they got on the open market. He was openly negotiating with both, and wanted to keep at least one, but with Sharper refusing to any salary cap concessions, he just had very little to work with at that time of the year. While it was not a huge contract by any means, he did pay more than a little to bring in Adrian Klemm at guard (which many thought was a shrewd deal at the time). It just didn't work as hoped.

[dissident94]

Lets stop comparing the two Qbs. Just because Favre broke down late in games doesn't mean squat right now.
I guess it is acceptable to lose and its acceptable to throw late games ints every time because two years ago Brett did.

When did Rodgers earn enough credibility not to be critisized. If he cannot deliver better in late game situations he will never be a great Qb.

I just do not understand where this comes from. The only people who bring up favre all the time are the Favre haters. But if you critisize Rodgers that means you are a Favre lover.

No it means Rodgers isn't playing well late in games. That is simple truth.

[Bossman641]

Lets stop comparing the two Qbs. Just because Favre broke down late in games doesn't mean squat right now.
I guess it is acceptable to lose and its acceptable to throw late games ints every time because two years ago Brett did.

When did Rodgers earn enough credibility not to be critisized. If he cannot deliver better in late game situations he will never be a great Qb.

I just do not understand where this comes from. The only people who bring up favre all the time are the Favre haters. But if you critisize Rodgers that means you are a Favre lover.

No it means Rodgers isn't playing well late in games. That is simple truth.

I agree with the gist of your post. There is no use in excusing Rodgers' failures because Favre failed before him.

I think what has many of us riled up is the fact that many here are blaming the losses solely on Rodgers or mostly on Rodgers. If the defense had held up a few times we wouldn't be having these discussions. Instead we would be hearing how Rodgers brought the team down the field for the game-winning FG or TD with 3 minutes left. That is where myself and others get sick. There's this general feeling here from many posters that Favre would have brought us back in every single one of these games, time and time again no matter how many times the defense blew it.

[HarveyWallbangers]

He can be criticized. He's failed on a number of last drives. I think a lot of people think it's pretty unfair though. He's put the team in position to win games in the 4th quarter numerous times. That gets forgotten because the defense has been an even bigger failure in crunch time. It seems those that criticize Rodgers fail to acknowledge that we were behind against Detroit in the 4th quarter and Rodgers led them back. They fail to acknowledge that he brought the team back from a deficit in the 4th quarter against Atlanta, only to see the defense give up points on the next drive. They fail to acknowledge that he twice drove the team to game tying scores late against Tennessee only to see the defense not get the ball back for him. They fail to acknowledge that he got the team in position to win late against Minnesota (although mostly due to luck), only to watch the coach get conservative and the kicker miss the kick. They fail to acknowledge that he brought the team back from a deficit in the 4th quarter against Carolina, only to have the defense give it up. He put them in position to win against Houston, but a bad call led to a squandered opportunity.

He's failed on last drives, but in MANY of these games, he's not only been asked to bring the team back, but he's been asked to bring the team back twice in the 4th quarter. He's been very successful the first time bringing them back. Not very successful the second time. Not many QBs would be all that successful if they have to create, in essence, two "game winning-type" drives in the 4th quarter in half of their games.

[sharpe1027]

Lets stop comparing the two Qbs. Just because Favre broke down late in games doesn't mean squat right now.
I guess it is acceptable to lose and its acceptable to throw late games ints every time because two years ago Brett did.

When did Rodgers earn enough credibility not to be critisized. If he cannot deliver better in late game situations he will never be a great Qb.

I just do not understand where this comes from. The only people who bring up favre all the time are the Favre haters. But if you critisize Rodgers that means you are a Favre lover.

No it means Rodgers isn't playing well late in games. That is simple truth.

Late-game INTs when huge chunks of yards in limitted time are necessary to win the game should generally be expected. When, the QB needs to start taking some chances there will be more INTs. That was true for Favre and it is true for Rodgers and any other QB.

Rodgers has scored late in the 4th several times to put the Packers ahead. He has also thrown are few INTs with the clock running down. Thos type of INTs are neither a terrible thing, nor completely acceptable, but should be expected.

[Partial]

Harv the detroit example is horrible. They scored 6 offensive points in the second half after dominating the first against an horrendous unbeaten team.

That was a severe offensive failure in the second half.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Harv the detroit example is horrible. They scored 6 offensive points in the second half after dominating the first against an horrendous unbeaten team.

That was a severe offensive failure in the second half.

They scored 34 points before the defense scored their first TD. How's that for offensive production? They had a bad third quarter. Big deal. They scored 24 points in the first half (of course, Rodgers gets no credit for those three first half TD passes), had a comfortable lead, and the defense gave it up. When they fell behind in the 4th quarter, did the Packers offense reclaim the lead or not on the next possession?

[Patler]

Lets stop comparing the two Qbs. Just because Favre broke down late in games doesn't mean squat right now.
I guess it is acceptable to lose and its acceptable to throw late games ints every time because two years ago Brett did.

When did Rodgers earn enough credibility not to be critisized. If he cannot deliver better in late game situations he will never be a great Qb.

I just do not understand where this comes from. The only people who bring up favre all the time are the Favre haters. But if you critisize Rodgers that means you are a Favre lover.

No it means Rodgers isn't playing well late in games. That is simple truth.

I could just as easily say that if you criticize Favre or say anything good about Rodgers you are classified a Rodgers lover and a Favre hater.

I started separate threads because I was not comparing the QBs. I was simply pointing out facts relating to each. I was hoping to get people to think more broadly by showing what a truly miserable year Favre had at the end of games in 2005. Favre, a future HOF'er and he threw interceptions galore and repeatedly fumbled in trying to rally his team from behind when the game was close. It happens.

On the other hand. Rodgers has not been totally incompetent at the end of games either. He has tied and gone ahead very late in the 4th quarter on numerous occasions. For various reasons, the offense, defense and special teams have just not been able to seal the deal. It happens.

[Partial]

Harv the detroit example is horrible. They scored 6 offensive points in the second half after dominating the first against an horrendous unbeaten team.

That was a severe offensive failure in the second half.

They scored 34 points before the defense scored their first TD. How's that for offensive production? They had a bad third quarter. Big deal. They scored 24 points in the first half (of course, Rodgers gets no credit for those three first half TD passes), had a comfortable lead, and the defense gave it up. When they fell behind in the 4th quarter, did the Packers offense reclaim the lead or not on the next possession?

Of course the defense blew it.

BS about the 34. What a crock. The D picks off a ball and puts them in prime position for their first second half TD.

They had 27 points before the D took over. The Packers D let Detroit back in the game without a doubt, but why did the offense suddenly fail against such a poor team?

[Zool]

Harv the detroit example is horrible. They scored 6 offensive points in the second half after dominating the first against an horrendous unbeaten team.

That was a severe offensive failure in the second half.

They scored 34 points before the defense scored their first TD. How's that for offensive production? They had a bad third quarter. Big deal. They scored 24 points in the first half (of course, Rodgers gets no credit for those three first half TD passes), had a comfortable lead, and the defense gave it up. When they fell behind in the 4th quarter, did the Packers offense reclaim the lead or not on the next possession?

Of course the defense blew it.

BS about the 34. What a crock. The D picks off a ball and puts them in prime position for their first second half TD.

They had 27 points before the D took over. The Packers D let Detroit back in the game without a doubt, but why did the offense suddenly fail against such a poor team?

Holy shit P, now there's qualifiers on the O scoring points? Did you research that in your posts on how many points the O has scored league wide? At the same time you say stats dont tell the tale. You cant have it both ways.