Mike Stock

[packer4life]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/36735104.html

I hate that all threads these days are focusing on the negative, but here I am doing the same. Sorry in advance. I don't post much on this site, but I do admire a lot of the football knowledge being thrown around in the forum. This post is more of a discussion starter, as Im not sure of my position regarding the state of our special teams.

Originally, I did think Stock needed the boot as his coverage units were absolutely inept. However, after reading this article, I feel like my position is changing. Stock surely can share some blame for not getting his troops ready, but with all the juggling TT did with the coverage lineups, and the ridiculous last-minute addition of frost, I'm beginning to feel as if TT is truly making some questionable decisions.

Firing Stock would definitely send a message to the coaching ranks indicating that success is paramount and nothing less will be expected. On the other hand, firing Stock seems to me as covering up our GM's personnel problems. The thing that outrages me is Danny Lansanah staying and Tracy White leaving. I mean come on, enough with the young guys, keep some leaders on this team. Lansanah has made 0 impact this year, whereas Im sure Tracy would've shored up at least a few coverage inadequacies this year.

Sorry for rambling, I'd love to hear some talk from those that know way more about special teams than myself.

[The Leaper]

IMO, Stock should garner the bulk of the blame in terms of on-field performance. He's the coach responsible for getting the guys to at least know the fundamentals. There have been too many penalties and simple breakdowns on special teams this year...and that is mostly Stock's fault IMO. I'm not sure exactly how much Stock is to blame for getting Frost...although I'm sure he deserves blame in that regard too.

That said...Thompson certainly deserves a huge amount of blame in terms of his handling of the punter slot and what happened with special team ace White. In short, Thompson fucked up big time...twice. It is completely unnacceptable that Thompson cut Ryan the week before the start of the season. If he was so borderline, then Thompson should've had another punter in camp. Making a last second decision like that screwed over the team and Crosby...who has now had 3 different holders this season and no doubt is wondering from week to week when the next change will occur.

There is plenty of blame to go around...and if Thompson can't right the ship by the end of 2009, he's likely going to be looking for a job.

[Patler]

I think there was a little more to the release of White than just not wanting to lose a younger guy (Lansanah). White's release came at a time when the team had quite a few injuries overall, and only two really healthy LBers (Barnett and Poppinga). Hawk was nursing several things, Bishop was dinged up, and it came out later that Chiller had a problem for several weeks that got worse and worse until he missed some time. Unfortunately, White was not a guy who gave them anything from the line of scrimmage on defense. The safeties were hurt off and on, Jones and Martin took turns being hurt along with Montgomery and Hunter at that time. The team almost couldn't afford the luxury of just a ST specialist at the time.

There was a lot of talk at the final roster cut down that White might not make it then because there were too many dinged up players coming out of camp.

[texaspackerbacker]

I've stood up for Sanders and his scheme; I've stood up for the ZBS; But I tend to think maybe Stock really does deserve to get replaced.

It's not so much a matter of fundamentals, although I suppose there has been some problems there too. Mostly, though, special teams is a matter of playing as a team. You take a bunch of mostly mediocre players who still have the skillset to have been very decent in college, and you get them coordinated to set up returns--NOT so much a matter of individual talent beyond the actual return guy carrying the ball. You keep your guys in their lanes and prevent big returns by the opponent. You get your people to do whatever it takes to prevent a blocked kick by a massive power rush up the middle--I don't care how strong those Bear linemen were, that was just inexcusable. You take time in practice to put together at least a couple of trick plays that generate unexpected scores during the season.

Stock was woefully lacking on all of those. Was it all just the players? Other teams use their mediocre players on special teams too, and many achieved success in almost all the areas above.

I wouldn't automatically say can him, but I would certainly hope McCarthy makes Stock show valid cause why all of the above was not his fault if he is to stay on.

[rbaloha1]

Aloha to Stock

[Bretsky]

I think there was a little more to the release of White than just not wanting to lose a younger guy (Lansanah). White's release came at a time when the team had quite a few injuries overall, and only two really healthy LBers (Barnett and Poppinga). Hawk was nursing several things, Bishop was dinged up, and it came out later that Chiller had a problem for several weeks that got worse and worse until he missed some time. Unfortunately, White was not a guy who gave them anything from the line of scrimmage on defense. The safeties were hurt off and on, Jones and Martin took turns being hurt along with Montgomery and Hunter at that time. The team almost couldn't afford the luxury of just a ST specialist at the time.

There was a lot of talk at the final roster cut down that White might not make it then because there were too many dinged up players coming out of camp.

Completely agree; there were a lot of bad things that occurred bang up wise that led to White's release. Still a mistake to do so IMO; but plenty of circumstances allowed one to see it coming.

[esoxx]

Completely untrue.

Lagsana was going to be claimed by the Dolphins off GB's practice squad. His reps called out of respect to tell them of this late night and TT made the decision to go with potential, once again, at the cost of gouging veteran leadership.

White was the acknowledged leader of the ST's. Blackmon was openly upset about the move and they sunk fairly quick afterwards.

Lagsana was not at all game ready at LB so Pat's theory is bogus. He also didn't do much of anything on ST's. This is another example of hoping for furture payoff at cost of the here and now. BTW, that's all well and good, if we get that payoff down the road. We'll see.

If they did have this in the cards for so long...and I know there was talk about White's roster status in final cuts, then hopefully Packer management would have had the decency to let White know his demise sooner than what they did. He was out making a public relations appearance for GB at the time he got the news he was gone. Nice.

GB was put on the spot and went youth. Surprise, surprise, surprise~

This kind of shit has a ripple effect in the locker room.

But some people would rather deflect reality than accept the truth. Good for you.

[Patler]

Completely untrue.

Lagsana was going to be claimed by the Dolphins off GB's practice squad. His reps called out of respect to tell them of this late night and TT made the decision to go with potential, once again, at the cost of gouging veteran leadership.

White was the acknowledged leader of the ST's. Blackmon was openly upset about the move and they sunk fairly quick afterwards.

Lagsana was not at all game ready at LB so Pat's theory is bogus. He also didn't do much of anything on ST's. This is another example of hoping for furture payoff at cost of the here and now. BTW, that's all well and good, if we get that payoff down the road. We'll see.

If they did have this in the cards for so long...and I know there was talk about White's roster status in final cuts, then hopefully Packer management would have had the decency to let White know his demise sooner than what they did. He was out making a public relations appearance for GB at the time he got the news he was gone. Nice.

GB was put on the spot and went youth. Surprise, surprise, surprise~

This kind of shit has a ripple effect in the locker room.

But some people would rather deflect reality than accept the truth. Good for you.

Apparently you missed my point completely. I know all about Miami and Lansanah, and I know what the Packers released in statements, but I think that is only part of the story. They needed to keep him because they were fearful of being down two or three linebackers, and if they were forced to play one of them from scrimmage they would have rather had Lansanah than White. Hawk and Chillar were both nursing injuries that could have kept them out of a game. Only when Chiller's got so bad that he was out did they finally admit it was something he had been nursing along for most of the season. I'm not sure Hawk has ever been healthy this year. Bishop had some nagging things off and on in TC and later. If all were out at the same time, and Lansanah was gone, White, Havner or a guy off the street would have had to start. They preferred to have Lansanah in that situation.

If their LBs on the 53 man roster were healthy, they probably would have let Lansanah go, or maybe released someone else. But they had injuries everywhere, with Bigby, Peprah, Martin, Rouse, Montgomery, Hunter, Jones, Martin and others all nursing injuries they kept them out of games, or at least questionable for games. Collins was continuously on the injury report. In the weeks around that time they had 10-15 guys on the injury report before games. Had they been healthier, I wonder if Bush might have been the odd man out instead of White, but as it was Bush might have had to play, too, when the safeties were dropping like flies.

When teams have that many injuries, ST specialists who can not contribute on offense or defense often get cut.

Had Lansanah not been claimed, they would have kept him on PS and signed him to the active roster if an when needed. But when Miami made the offer the Packers were forced to decide how bad their injury situation was, could they afford to keep a guy who played only special teams, without the security of a guy like Lansanah on PS or not? They decided not. Having to play White on defense would not have been a good option.

Who said Lansanah was not game ready? I think he was a better option than White if one had to play from scrimmage. We never got to see much of Lansanah because he was injured almost right away.

[pack4to84]

After reading the stats of the special teams. You would have to make out of it that too many injuries effected special teams. With players on and off special teams, because they where starting do to injuries. The stats are not that bad when you look at it as a whole.

The opponent starting position is only different from last year by 1 yard. The biggest difference I see is our starting position. That would need to be fixed. But as a whole I think Stock deserves another chance.

[KYPack]

Stock is a mixed bag. I think the Tracy White affair "happened" to him and he had to live with it.

- I think he helped engineer the Ryan cutting and it blew up in his face big time, espec with Frosts' miserable failure.

- Lot's of ST ers play was very ordinary.

- His schemes are also pedestrian. Every once in a while, he'll cross his L3 & L2 guys on kick-off. Whoo ee, that's radical. The fake punt was pretty good against the Bears.

-ST is all attitude and I'd describe our attitude guys as pretty ordinary.

Failing to block up the kick on the field goal seemed to happen twice in the Bear game.

All in all, let's get a new guy. Stock is competant, he's helped make our return teams a threat and helped develop the brilliant Will Blackmon. After this dismal season tho, we probably have to run some coach (es) off, let's start with grumpy old Mike.