Packerrats Big Board Draft Project

[Partial]

NFL Rosters disagree. These are all the guys that line up as a nose tackle.

I haven't seen enough of Raji to make a comparison, but I just don't see it being very likely based on his length. 6 flat is really short for an NT. He'd have to have freakishly long arms for his size to play with any sort of leverage.

Shorter = better leverage

Short guys have a natural advantage with leverage. Tall guys need to learn how to use it and need more muscle/size to play at the same level of practical strength.

Shorter does not equal better leverage... what are earth are you talking about? Natural leverage... not really... The big, tall guy is going to blow them off the line play after play because they have longer arms and are likely naturally stronger.

That's just crazy talk and would straight up defy most laws of physics. Have you ever arm wrestled or regular wrestled anyone taller than you? My guess is you didn't win.

While it's true you want to get lower than the opposition, there is a reason most of the dominant linemen are big guys. Look at the best ends and best DT/NTs in the league. They're big, tall guys.

[RashanGary]

I hope you're kidding, partial.

[rbaloha1]

I hope you're kidding, partial.

Basic line play -- low man wins.

Warren Sapp had tremendous success due to being short thus leverage. Suggest watching Ed Sabol special on Warren Sapp and listen to Sapp explain being short and leverage.

[Lurker64]

You get better leverage by getting lower than the other guy, since if your center of gravity is lower than his, you're going to have an easier time knocking him off balance. If you naturally have a lower center of gravity, you have an advantage here regardless of stance and technique. More to the point, if the person who's pushing against you is pushing down and forward, and you're pushing forward, both of you expending equal force, you're going to knock him over, since a portion of their energy is going to be devoted to trying to push you through the earth, which is obviously not going to happen.

If you're talking about offensive tackles (and defensive ends), where leverage is required to control and direct people to and away from specific areas of the field, then yes 6'0" is too short. Though the same could be said about people like Sam Baker who, though tall, has tiny useless tyrannosaur arms. But playing NT is a different game entirely. Your job is to be able to push the other person backwards, and to be able to hold your ground. In both cases, a lower center of gravity is useful.

Raji will, however, have trouble batting down passes at the line of scrimmage. But if he can hold the point, and collapse the pocket (he can), that's good enough.

Lists anybody?

[Waldo]

Most NT are actually 6'0" to 6'2"

Jason Ferguson - 6'3"
Kris Jenkins - 6'4"
Shaun Rogers - 6'4"
Pat Williams - 6'3"
Dusty Dvoracek - 6'4"
Travis Johnson - 6'3"
John Henderson - 6'7"
Albert Haynesworth - 6'6"
Jay Ratliff - 6'4"
Marcus Stroud - 6'6"
Barry Cofield - 6'4"
Aubrayo Franklin - 6'1"
Bryan Robinson - 6'4"
Vince Wilfolk - 6'2"
Jamal Williams - 6'4"
Trevor Pryce - 6'5"
Casey Hampton - 6'1"

NFL Rosters disagree. These are all the guys that line up as a nose tackle.

I haven't seen enough of Raji to make a comparison, but I just don't see it being very likely based on his length. 6 flat is really short for an NT. He'd have to have freakishly long arms for his size to play with any sort of leverage.

Mike Patterson is 6'0", Ryan Pickett is 6'2"

The short guys (especially the wrestling trained ones like Raji) play with much better pad level, guys lower to the ground are harder to push back, he whose pads are lower wins 90% of the time. Long arms are for rushing the passer, low pads are for winning the battle in the run game.

[TennesseePackerBacker]

NFL Rosters disagree. These are all the guys that line up as a nose tackle.

I haven't seen enough of Raji to make a comparison, but I just don't see it being very likely based on his length. 6 flat is really short for an NT. He'd have to have freakishly long arms for his size to play with any sort of leverage.

Shorter = better leverage

Short guys have a natural advantage with leverage. Tall guys need to learn how to use it and need more muscle/size to play at the same level of practical strength.

Shorter does not equal better leverage... what are earth are you talking about? Natural leverage... not really... The big, tall guy is going to blow them off the line play after play because they have longer arms and are likely naturally stronger.

That's just crazy talk and would straight up defy most laws of physics. Have you ever arm wrestled or regular wrestled anyone taller than you? My guess is you didn't win.

While it's true you want to get lower than the opposition, there is a reason most of the dominant linemen are big guys. Look at the best ends and best DT/NTs in the league. They're big, tall guys.

Did you ever even play football or wrestle? A short stocky guy can hold leverage like a tree stump.

[RashanGary]

Furhter, if someone is pushing down and forward, that means the opposite force is up and backward (relatively speaking).

Think about what an upward force does for your abilty to stay anchored to the ground. It's not good.


Isn't Pat Williams about 6'1"? (edit, he's 6'3" but with his weight and power and experience using leverage he's about ideal for a run stuffer).

I'm OK with 6'1" though. If the guy can carry weight at that height and he's powerfull then you can't complain. He's definitly going to stay anchored (unlike Harrell).

[BZnDallas]

1. BJ Raji
2. Aaron Curry
3. Brian Orakpo
4. Jason Smith
5. Michael Oher
6. Malcolm Jenkins
7. Eugene Monroe
8. Michael Crabtree
9. Rey Maualuga
10.Tyson Jackson

just one mans opinion

[Rastak]

Furhter, if someone is pushing down and forward, that means the opposite force is up and backward (relatively speaking).

Think about what an upward force does for your abilty to stay anchored. It's not good.


Isn't Pat Williams about 6'1"?

That's leverage against a straight bullrush. What happens when a skilled lineman uses that force against you?

I guess since leverage is the name of the game for lineman they should all be short on both sides of the ball? I don't think it's quite that simple. I would agree the shorter guy has the advantage on a straight bullrush or interior pass blocking against a big guy.

[Lurker64]

Furhter, if someone is pushing down and forward, that means the opposite force is up and backward (relatively speaking).

Think about what an upward force does for your abilty to stay anchored. It's not good.


Isn't Pat Williams about 6'1"?

That's leverage against a straight bullrush. What happens when a skilled lineman uses that force against you?

I guess since leverage is the name of the game for lineman they should all be short on both sides of the ball? I don't think it's quite that simple. I would agree the shorter guy has the advantage on a straight bullrush or interior pass blocking against a big guy.

I think that's why you don't end up with 4'1" 300 lb NTs. But a 6'0" guy is far from too short to play on the interior DL. Being 2" shorter than the guy you're playing against is a big difference when it comes to CBs and WRs, but not as major a difference for DTs. In the interior, guys are going to be trying to get low off the snap more times than not, anyway (which is why you don't see 6'7" OGs for the most part.)

Presumably shorter than most of the guys lined up against him (but potentially just as powerful), he will have an advantage in terms of moving forward and not-moving-backwards. As to lateral movement, it's going to come down to footwork and technique, which a guy with shorter legs is going to have a little more trouble with, but again 6'0" isn't exactly a midget. A taller guy with longer arms than you (some tall guys have tiny useless arms, like Sam Baker), may be able to get his arms on you before you can get your arms on him, thus he can get more force out of his punch than you can (e.g. you can hit somebody a lot harder from 2' away, than you can from 6" away), but the thing I really like about Raji is that he has a very quick first step in addition to his power.

I don't see him as either "a reach at #9" or "too short to play NT." If you were building him in a lab, you might put a couple of inches on him (and make him a probable eventual Nobel Laureate too, while you're at it), but this is football and not mad science. A certain amount of DT play can be judged by "can you knock the other guy backwards/ does the other guy knock you backwards" (beyond that, it's mostly just lateral movement, arm technique, hitting, and tackling). We play this game on a gridiron, and not in a laboratory after all.

[Partial]

Mike Patterson is 6'0", Ryan Pickett is 6'2"

The short guys (especially the wrestling trained ones like Raji) play with much better pad level, guys lower to the ground are harder to push back, he whose pads are lower wins 90% of the time. Long arms are for rushing the passer, low pads are for winning the battle in the run game.

Mike Patterson nor Pickett are listed as Nose Tackles.

How has short Scott Wells wrestling training helped him in getting push? A tall, powerful guy getting low is going to over power a short guy every day of the week.

I don't buy what you're saying at all, as all of the premiere guys are all quite tall.

[Partial]

NFL Rosters disagree. These are all the guys that line up as a nose tackle.

I haven't seen enough of Raji to make a comparison, but I just don't see it being very likely based on his length. 6 flat is really short for an NT. He'd have to have freakishly long arms for his size to play with any sort of leverage.

Shorter = better leverage

Short guys have a natural advantage with leverage. Tall guys need to learn how to use it and need more muscle/size to play at the same level of practical strength.

Shorter does not equal better leverage... what are earth are you talking about? Natural leverage... not really... The big, tall guy is going to blow them off the line play after play because they have longer arms and are likely naturally stronger.

That's just crazy talk and would straight up defy most laws of physics. Have you ever arm wrestled or regular wrestled anyone taller than you? My guess is you didn't win.

While it's true you want to get lower than the opposition, there is a reason most of the dominant linemen are big guys. Look at the best ends and best DT/NTs in the league. They're big, tall guys.

Did you ever even play football or wrestle? A short stocky guy can hold leverage like a tree stump.

Maybe in high school or even college, but these guys are all getting low. The big guy is going to get just as low, be playing at a better angle for his back, be able to anchor better, etc.

There is a reason the best guys in the league at the position are taller. See the list I posted.

[Lurker64]

When we're talking about the heights of these guys, are we talking combine height or roster height? Since combine height is scrupulously accurate and roster height tends to be inflated (Warren Sapp was always listed as taller than he was.)

So it's sort of unfair to compare the roster height of all these guys to the (anticipated) combine height for Raji. Raji's 6-1 number is the one to compare to these other guys, and there are 6' 1" DTs who do okay for themselves in this league (Colin Cole, the only DT on the roster this year who wasn't disappointing, is listed at 6'1" and he's nowhere near as strong or quick as Raji.) Sedrick Ellis is listed at 6'1" and he had a fine season for the Saints this year.

I mean, Raji's not a pure NT. He's stout enough to play the over-tackle position, and he's quick enough to play the under-tackle position. Since we don't know what defense we're going to be using next year it's too early to really predict how the tackles are going to line up. I like him a lot right now since he can play both over and under.

Top 10 lists anybody?

[jmbarnes101]

Resubmission:

1. Aaron Curry - OLB Wake Forest
2. Malcolm Jenkins - CB Ohio St.
3. Michael Crabtree - WR Texas Tech
4. Eugene Monroe - OT Virginia
5. Andre Smith - OT Alabama
6. Matt Shaughnessy - DE Wisconsin
7. Brian Orakpo - DE Texas
8. Michael Oher - OT Mississippi
9. B.J. Raji - DT Boston College
10. William Moore - S Missouri

[Waldo]

How has short Scott Wells wrestling training helped him in getting push? A tall, powerful guy getting low is going to over power a short guy every day of the week.

I don't buy what you're saying at all, as all of the premiere guys are all quite tall.

The only reason Wells is playing is because his technique is so good. He is an A+ technician with a D+ body. He just isn't strong or athletic enough to ever be anything more than mediocre.

Casey Hampton is as premiere as any NT in the game, he is the best. There are good ones from all heights, Wilfork is darn good, as is phat Pat and Jamal Williams. Henderson, Big Al, and Stroud are the tall ones, the tall ones tend to be better pass rushers as they can keep the OL from getting to their pads.

Gilbert Brown was 6'-2"