CNNSI.com Take on Switch to 3-4

[Guiness]

If so, that is friggin horrifying. 40 times, especially for DL, are about as worthless as teats on a steer.

40 times can be extremely important....just think of all those late substitutions when they are trying to get a lineman off the field for a pass rush specialist, extra DB or LB, etc. If the lineman is too slow, it could cost you 5 yards!

Other than that, linemen don't run that much!

More truth to that than you think! I distinctly remember the Gravedigger causing some problems trying to get off the field on 3rd and long!

[Waldo]

If so, that is friggin horrifying. 40 times, especially for DL, are about as worthless as teats on a steer.

40 times can be extremely important....just think of all those late substitutions when they are trying to get a lineman off the field for a pass rush specialist, extra DB or LB, etc. If the lineman is too slow, it could cost you 5 yards!

Other than that, linemen don't run that much!

More truth to that than you think! I distinctly remember the Gravedigger causing some problems trying to get off the field on 3rd and long!

Gilbert could run pretty good for a big man. Grady OTOH, eek, I can walk faster than he could run.

[sharpe1027]

They clearly don't have the personnel... hell, they didn't have good personnel to execute the 4-3.

It is not clear. The only thing that is clear is that you have reached a conclusion about the issue. Your points are generally valid, but I feel that you are overstating your position.

For example, the entire defensive team is not going to be unsuited for a 3-4 scheme. True, they may have drafted a player who they thought was the best available for their 4-3 scheme at the time, but that doesn't mean that that same player wouldn't be just as good or even better at a similar position in a 3-4 scheme.

From what I have read, there are as many differences between variations of different 4-3 schemes as there are between a particular 4-3 scheme and a particular 3-4 scheme.

[Guiness]

40 times can be extremely important....just think of all those late substitutions when they are trying to get a lineman off the field for a pass rush specialist, extra DB or LB, etc. If the lineman is too slow, it could cost you 5 yards!

Other than that, linemen don't run that much!

More truth to that than you think! I distinctly remember the Gravedigger causing some problems trying to get off the field on 3rd and long!

Gilbert could run pretty good for a big man. Grady OTOH, eek, I can walk faster than he could run.

Which actually goes to show how little measureable, etc, can mean.

I don't know how those two big men 'graded out' but I do know that Jackson was able to get to the QB a lot better than Brown, and on the surface you'd think speed has something to do with this.

edit: damn, just looked him up. He started for Atlanta this season?

[Waldo]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/38512934.html

Article says Kampman will play Woodley's position of SOLB. A Steelers coach said that Capers will likely "use the slightly offset line more than the two-gap," and said Capers will not "override what the players can do."

Woodley is 6'1" 266. He ran the 40 in 4.74. (He ran between 4.68 and 4.84 and was given this as his official time.) His vertical leap was 38". His shuttle run (primarily, a test of agility) was 4.42.

At Kampman's campus workout, he was 6'4" 288. He ran the 40 in 4.68. (He ran between 4.66 and 4.70.) His vertical leap was 35 1/2". His shuttle run was 4.04.

Kampman tested as good or better than Woodley, and he was 288 then. He's now down to 265, so I would imagine his numbers might even better.

Makes you wonder how scouts missed on Kampman.

Wow, I just noticed that, I had to go elsewhere to look it up just to be sure (I found 4.09, same ballpark), holy smokes. I found a list of 3-4 WOLB's and their #'s, only Demarcus Ware is even in that ballpark (4.07), Merriman and Lawson both ran it in 4.21. If he added a few inches to his vert after losing 20lbs, his #'s are as elite as any 3-4 WOLB in the NFL.

AJ Hawk had one of the fastest LB times ever at the combine, and he did it in 3.96.

[rbaloha1]

Again great measureables do not always directly correlate to great performance on the football field.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Again great measureables do not always directly correlate to great performance on the football field.

Last summer, Harvey schooled me in the fact that Jason Hunter's measurables are very similar to Justin Tuck's.

Harvey & Hunter, sitting in a tree
K-I-S-S-I-N-G

[Waldo]

You guys do know that Kamp was a 5 star LB recruit of of HS right? He could have played LB at any school in the nation that he wanted to. AJ Hawk was only a 3 star LB recruit coming out of HS. Aaron wasn't just a guy that played LB, he was one of the top 5 best LB's in the nation in his class. He was THAT good of a LB. And has the measurables to back it up.

[mraynrand]

You guys do know that Kamp was a 5 star LB recruit of of HS right? He could have played LB at any school in the nation that he wanted to. AJ Hawk was only a 3 star LB recruit coming out of HS. Aaron wasn't just a guy that played LB, he was one of the top 5 best LB's in the nation in his class. He was THAT good of a LB. And has the measurables to back it up.

He's had his hand on the ground for a long time though. Any precedent for a DE to LB switch like this, so late in a career?

[HarveyWallbangers]

He's had his hand on the ground for a long time though. Any precedent for a DE to LB switch like this, so late in a career?

Didn't Jason Taylor make the switch his last couple of years in Miami?

[Waldo]

You guys do know that Kamp was a 5 star LB recruit of of HS right? He could have played LB at any school in the nation that he wanted to. AJ Hawk was only a 3 star LB recruit coming out of HS. Aaron wasn't just a guy that played LB, he was one of the top 5 best LB's in the nation in his class. He was THAT good of a LB. And has the measurables to back it up.

He's had his hand on the ground for a long time though. Any precedent for a DE to LB switch like this, so late in a career?

Greg Ellis was a DE from HS until he was 28 and made the switch. His #'s went up when Dallas switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4, and got even better when they switched from a 2 gap 3-4 to a 1 gap 3-4. Also remember Kamp has played LB at a very high level before. He played the exact same position at the exact same school that Greenway played. And he was a higher rated recruit.

[wist43]

I want to see a complete turnover on defense... Jenkins can play DE in a 3-4, but he is about the only guy on the entire roster that fits a 3-4.

This is a completely idiotic statement. I would like to see your proof of this, which should be a humdinger as none of these players has played a single down in the 3-4 system Capers is planning to play. How about giving them a chance first before completely wrting them off?

Who else is a good fit in the front 7???

You have to make extrapolations to make just about any of the rest of them fit... Pickett can play nose, but how well... Cole can't anchor as a 4-3 DT, how is he going to play nose, so right away??? So right away, you have no depth at NT, at least quality depth.

Montgomery is gone... Thompson and Kampman are hands down DE's, i.e. both of them are better suited to a 4-3, Jolly can maybe man the other end opposite Jenkins.

For every guy they have... projecting them into a 3-4 is exactly that. They were drafted to play that passive POS 4-3 they had been using, none of them is a natural fit in a 3-4. Not that complicated, just stating the obvious.

And knowing what they are starting with... I'm drawing a reasonable conclusion that the "hybrid" they plan on running, will quickly morph right back into a base 4-3 b/c they lack the personnel to play that scheme.

The only thing that could change that would be if TT recognizes the players he has are a bad fit and moves to get some slotted 3-4 personnel in here.

[BZnDallas]

I want to see a complete turnover on defense... Jenkins can play DE in a 3-4, but he is about the only guy on the entire roster that fits a 3-4.

This is a completely idiotic statement. I would like to see your proof of this, which should be a humdinger as none of these players has played a single down in the 3-4 system Capers is planning to play. How about giving them a chance first before completely wrting them off?

Who else is a good fit in the front 7???

You have to make extrapolations to make just about any of the rest of them fit... Pickett can play nose, but how well... Cole can't anchor as a 4-3 DT, how is he going to play nose, so right away??? So right away, you have no depth at NT, at least quality depth.

Montgomery is gone... Thompson and Kampman are hands down DE's, i.e. both of them are better suited to a 4-3, Jolly can maybe man the other end opposite Jenkins.

For every guy they have... projecting them into a 3-4 is exactly that. They were drafted to play that passive POS 4-3 they had been using, none of them is a natural fit in a 3-4. Not that complicated, just stating the obvious.

And knowing what they are starting with... I'm drawing a reasonable conclusion that the "hybrid" they plan on running, will quickly morph right back into a base 4-3 b/c they lack the personnel to play that scheme.

The only thing that could change that would be if TT recognizes the players he has are a bad fit and moves to get some slotted 3-4 personnel in here.

so i'm curious wist... how many new players are you wanting TT to bring in?... how many new players would it take for you to say something positive about the packers for a change... (i don't mean that in a negitive way)...

i think we would all agree with you that we would like another NT for depth, maybe raji, maybe FA... i think many of us would agree that we need another 3-4 DE (quite a few of those in FA this offseason and some might not have a hefty price tag either)... and i say again, i don't think many people would agrue with you about a 3-4 OLB... but that can be found in the draft, maybe 2nd round (English i think?) or again FA... those are the positions i think you have commented on in the past... so we are looking at 2 new starters, and a depth player? by no means is that overhauling the defensive side of the ball... and all of those can be taken care of in one offseason...

i'm not saying we are going to contend for the SB next year, but if TT can make a move here and make a move there, i can see how we have a chance at being competitive next year and maybe a boss in the NFC the year after that... but hey, thats just one mans opinion...

[HarveyWallbangers]

Who else is a good fit in the front 7?

I'm going to predict that Pickett at NT, Jenkins at DE, Kampman at SOLB, Hawk at ILB will be good fits. I also wouldn't be surprised if our WOLB is on the roster, and he's solid. Barnett is not an ideal fit, and I know you hate him, but I'm not going to write him off as a bad fit. There are plenty of ILBs in the 3-4 scheme that are a similar size to Barnett. I think our obvious needs are a starting caliber DE and a backup NT. In this scheme, you can never have enough LBs, so we'll need more of them. Although I think we could most of our LBs on the roster, there's no guarantee that any of them will be studs in this scheme.

[Waldo]

Who else is a good fit in the front 7?

I'm going to predict that Pickett at NT, Jenkins at DE, Kampman at SOLB, Hawk at ILB will be good fits. I also wouldn't be surprised if our WOLB is on the roster, and he's solid. Barnett is not an ideal fit, and I know you hate him, but I'm not going to write him off as a bad fit. There are plenty of ILBs in the 3-4 scheme that are a similar size to Barnett. I think our obvious needs are a starting caliber DE and a backup NT. In this scheme, you can never have enough LBs, so we'll need more of them. Although I think we could most of our LBs on the roster, there's no guarantee that any of them will be studs in this scheme.

There is also no guarantee that we don't have a periennial pro bowler that we don't know about. The coin flips both ways. Physically Kampman, Thompson and Hunter are ideal OLB's; the more aggressive, attacking mentality might just be what is needed for Hawk to turn into the dominant LB he was in college, the one that #5 overall indicates.