Al Harris / Bigby / Driver - Updates

[Fritz]

Oh shit. Here we go with the crazy Bigby man love again.

Well, if they're going to have Bigby doing anything on the football field, it's probably better that they have him up near the line of scrimmage, running around like a crazy person trying to kill somebody. Goodness knows he's not good for much else.

I'm on board with the Atari Bigby train. Guy's a playmaker. I see a breakout year.

And if Raji is available at #9, TT, please don't pass...he'll go to Denver at, what, #12? Get the line situation settled!

[SkinBasket]

Oh shit. Here we go with the crazy Bigby man love again.

Well, if they're going to have Bigby doing anything on the football field, it's probably better that they have him up near the line of scrimmage, running around like a crazy person trying to kill somebody. Goodness knows he's not good for much else.

I'm on board with the Atari Bigby train. Guy's a playmaker. I see a breakout year.

And if Raji is available at #9, TT, please don't pass...he'll go to Denver at, what, #12? Get the line situation settled!

I think the "train" is more like a parade float driven by a drunk. We've been waiting a long long time for this breakout of his. His two biggest problems are his Herronesque speed and how long it took for him to figure out our vanilla defense. I don't think he's getting any faster anytime soon, and now he's got to learn a new defense. I think it's much more likely we're in for a breakdown year unless they're committed to hiding him again to the detriment of the rest of the defense.

[Joemailman]

In 2007, Bigby had 5 interceptions and the Packers were #12 in pass defense. I think his detractors here go a bit overboard. He has some weakness in coverage, but a lot of strong safeties aren't great in coverage. When he's healthy and playing well, Bigby can be an intimidating force. One thing that doesn't show up on defensive stat sheets is passes that are dropped because the receiver has one eye on the ball and the other looking out for the hit that might be coming.

[Fritz]

Oh shit. Here we go with the crazy Bigby man love again.

Well, if they're going to have Bigby doing anything on the football field, it's probably better that they have him up near the line of scrimmage, running around like a crazy person trying to kill somebody. Goodness knows he's not good for much else.

I'm on board with the Atari Bigby train. Guy's a playmaker. I see a breakout year.

And if Raji is available at #9, TT, please don't pass...he'll go to Denver at, what, #12? Get the line situation settled!

I think the "train" is more like a parade float driven by a drunk. We've been waiting a long long time for this breakout of his. His two biggest problems are his Herronesque speed and how long it took for him to figure out our vanilla defense. I don't think he's getting any faster anytime soon, and now he's got to learn a new defense. I think it's much more likely we're in for a breakdown year unless they're committed to hiding him again to the detriment of the rest of the defense.

First, I like parade floats driven by drunks.

Second, I think he'll have much more of the Darren Sharper/Nick Collins type of learning curve than the Marques Anderson/Antwan Edwards type.

Give him this year before you condemn him, Skin.

[bigcoz75]

Oh shit. Here we go with the crazy Bigby man love again.

Well, if they're going to have Bigby doing anything on the football field, it's probably better that they have him up near the line of scrimmage, running around like a crazy person trying to kill somebody. Goodness knows he's not good for much else.

I'm on board with the Atari Bigby train. Guy's a playmaker. I see a breakout year.

And if Raji is available at #9, TT, please don't pass...he'll go to Denver at, what, #12? Get the line situation settled!

I think the "train" is more like a parade float driven by a drunk. We've been waiting a long long time for this breakout of his. His two biggest problems are his Herronesque speed and how long it took for him to figure out our vanilla defense. I don't think he's getting any faster anytime soon, and now he's got to learn a new defense. I think it's much more likely we're in for a breakdown year unless they're committed to hiding him again to the detriment of the rest of the defense.

Bigby ran a 4.65 40 POSITIVES: Athletic, physical safety with solid size/speed numbers. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/foo...ers/62021.html

Herron 4.74 40 NEGATIVES: Lacks speed and agility around the corner.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2005/draft/players/60232.html

[SkinBasket]

Oh shit. Here we go with the crazy Bigby man love again.

Well, if they're going to have Bigby doing anything on the football field, it's probably better that they have him up near the line of scrimmage, running around like a crazy person trying to kill somebody. Goodness knows he's not good for much else.

I'm on board with the Atari Bigby train. Guy's a playmaker. I see a breakout year.

And if Raji is available at #9, TT, please don't pass...he'll go to Denver at, what, #12? Get the line situation settled!

I think the "train" is more like a parade float driven by a drunk. We've been waiting a long long time for this breakout of his. His two biggest problems are his Herronesque speed and how long it took for him to figure out our vanilla defense. I don't think he's getting any faster anytime soon, and now he's got to learn a new defense. I think it's much more likely we're in for a breakdown year unless they're committed to hiding him again to the detriment of the rest of the defense.

First, I like parade floats driven by drunks.

Second, I think he'll have much more of the Darren Sharper/Nick Collins type of learning curve than the Marques Anderson/Antwan Edwards type.

Give him this year before you condemn him, Skin.

Hell, I condemned him two years ago when I noticed he had a wonderful tendency to be nowhere near the guy he was supposed to be covering and lacked the speed to catch up to whoever ran past him.

As far as Joe's points, I doubt many - if any - players are intimidated by Bigby. Fans tend to remember those three or four "big" hits he's had in his entire career more than the players who salivate when they see him in coverage. That and most guys in the league probably don't even remember him at this point. His 5 interceptions were more the product of playing deep and fielding poorly thrown passes than him jumping any routes or actually anticipating where the play was going.

Finally, I don't put much stock in his 40 numbers - good or bad. Unless there's a plan to have our safeties run as fast as they can in a straight line for 40 yards, it doesn't tell you much.

You can also tout whatever size/speed numbers you want, but the fact is when he steps onto the football field he is a sub-par to average player who's had one great game and a handful of memorable plays, some of them in the preseason, that people want to glom onto instead of admitting that he's just not that good. Instead he's the dreadlocked silly named fella everyone wants to believe is just one more season away from becoming the great player they want him to be instead of the average player he is.

[Fritz]

My problem with that is that many of the same types of criticisms were leveled against Sharper and Collins (though admittedly against Andersen and Edwards, too). Safeties seem to often take three years to get it together, so I'm willing to give Bigby this year to prove he can or can't do it.

You think he's more Antwan Edwards, I think he's more Darren sharper

[Gunakor]

Oh shit. Here we go with the crazy Bigby man love again.

Well, if they're going to have Bigby doing anything on the football field, it's probably better that they have him up near the line of scrimmage, running around like a crazy person trying to kill somebody. Goodness knows he's not good for much else.

I'm on board with the Atari Bigby train. Guy's a playmaker. I see a breakout year.

And if Raji is available at #9, TT, please don't pass...he'll go to Denver at, what, #12? Get the line situation settled!

I think the "train" is more like a parade float driven by a drunk. We've been waiting a long long time for this breakout of his. His two biggest problems are his Herronesque speed and how long it took for him to figure out our vanilla defense. I don't think he's getting any faster anytime soon, and now he's got to learn a new defense. I think it's much more likely we're in for a breakdown year unless they're committed to hiding him again to the detriment of the rest of the defense.

First, I like parade floats driven by drunks.

Second, I think he'll have much more of the Darren Sharper/Nick Collins type of learning curve than the Marques Anderson/Antwan Edwards type.

Give him this year before you condemn him, Skin.

Hell, I condemned him two years ago when I noticed he had a wonderful tendency to be nowhere near the guy he was supposed to be covering and lacked the speed to catch up to whoever ran past him.

As far as Joe's points, I doubt many - if any - players are intimidated by Bigby. Fans tend to remember those three or four "big" hits he's had in his entire career more than the players who salivate when they see him in coverage. That and most guys in the league probably don't even remember him at this point. His 5 interceptions were more the product of playing deep and fielding poorly thrown passes than him jumping any routes or actually anticipating where the play was going.

Finally, I don't put much stock in his 40 numbers - good or bad. Unless there's a plan to have our safeties run as fast as they can in a straight line for 40 yards, it doesn't tell you much.

You can also tout whatever size/speed numbers you want, but the fact is when he steps onto the football field he is a sub-par to average player who's had one great game and a handful of memorable plays, some of them in the preseason, that people want to glom onto instead of admitting that he's just not that good. Instead he's the dreadlocked silly named fella everyone wants to believe is just one more season away from becoming the great player they want him to be instead of the average player he is.

Not to worry, because I doubt Bigby would be left in coverage too much anyway. It sounds like they won't be using their safeties in cover 2 anymore, rather they'll leave Collins as the single high safety and bring Bigby down into the box for run support. Bigby won't have 5 interceptions. He probably won't have 2. But he'll rack up 70+ tackles, some of them for loss, and probably 3+ sacks too. He'll create havoc at the LOS, which is really the point of a 3-4 in general. Now, from what you've seen of him these past 2 seasons, what gives you the indication that Bigby will fail here?

[SkinBasket]

Not to worry, because I doubt Bigby would be left in coverage too much anyway. It sounds like they won't be using their safeties in cover 2 anymore, rather they'll leave Collins as the single high safety and bring Bigby down into the box for run support. Bigby won't have 5 interceptions. He probably won't have 2. But he'll rack up 70+ tackles, some of them for loss, and probably 3+ sacks too. He'll create havoc at the LOS, which is really the point of a 3-4 in general. Now, from what you've seen of him these past 2 seasons, what gives you the indication that Bigby will fail here?

The other reason I think he's struggled is that he took a long time to figure out where he was supposed to be and what he was supposed to be doing in 07. As he figured these things out with some pretty brutal on-the-job training, he did show improvement that year. Improvement from liability to marginal starter. In 08, he seemed to regress before the injury officially ended his season.

So I'm looking at a guy who wasn't improving in 08 and was slow to figure out a simpler scheme coming into a new defense and returning from injury. Sure, he might create some havoc at the line. If I put on pads and ran in random directions around the line, I would probably cause some confusion too. That doesn't mean I'd be helping the defense. Meanwhile, RBs, TEs and WRs will be running past him and down the field.

I just think a lot of people put far too much weight on the few big plays he's had instead of his larger body of work that includes a lot shoddy play, bad angles taken at low speed, and broken coverages.

[Patler]

Not to worry, because I doubt Bigby would be left in coverage too much anyway. It sounds like they won't be using their safeties in cover 2 anymore, rather they'll leave Collins as the single high safety and bring Bigby down into the box for run support. Bigby won't have 5 interceptions. He probably won't have 2. But he'll rack up 70+ tackles, some of them for loss, and probably 3+ sacks too. He'll create havoc at the LOS, which is really the point of a 3-4 in general. Now, from what you've seen of him these past 2 seasons, what gives you the indication that Bigby will fail here?

The other reason I think he's struggled is that he took a long time to figure out where he was supposed to be and what he was supposed to be doing in 07. As he figured these things out with some pretty brutal on-the-job training, he did show improvement that year. Improvement from liability to marginal starter. In 08, he seemed to regress before the injury officially ended his season.

So I'm looking at a guy who wasn't improving in 08 and was slow to figure out a simpler scheme coming into a new defense and returning from injury. Sure, he might create some havoc at the line. If I put on pads and ran in random directions around the line, I would probably cause some confusion too. That doesn't mean I'd be helping the defense. Meanwhile, RBs, TEs and WRs will be running past him and down the field.

I just think a lot of people put far too much weight on the few big plays he's had instead of his larger body of work that includes a lot shoddy play, bad angles taken at low speed, and broken coverages.

I don't think we can determine anything from his 2008 season. He had an interception in the first game, was injured in the second game and missed the next 5 completely (he wasn't even active). He tried to come back in game #7, but clearly was not ready. He was in and out for the next 5 games, starting but not lasting long in most of them because he simply could not run. He only lasted one or two series in several of the games. He played in only 7 games all year, and only the first before being injured.

Injuries have held him back more than anything else. The Packers didn't sign him until toward the end of 2005. He played very well in NFL-E that off season and was making a good impression back in GB. Going into camp a lot was expected from him, but he broke his hand early in camp and that shelved him for the first half of '06. In '07 he was healthy, had 3 forced fumbles, 5 interceptions, 21 passes defensed and more tackles than any DB since 1990. Sure he struggled a little bit early in '07, but those were his first real games in the NFL other than on ST.

I'm more concerned with his tendency toward injuries than anything else. He missed games late in '06 because of hamstring problems, too. If he stays healthy, I think he can be adequate.

[3irty1]

Not to worry, because I doubt Bigby would be left in coverage too much anyway. It sounds like they won't be using their safeties in cover 2 anymore, rather they'll leave Collins as the single high safety and bring Bigby down into the box for run support. Bigby won't have 5 interceptions. He probably won't have 2. But he'll rack up 70+ tackles, some of them for loss, and probably 3+ sacks too. He'll create havoc at the LOS, which is really the point of a 3-4 in general. Now, from what you've seen of him these past 2 seasons, what gives you the indication that Bigby will fail here?

The other reason I think he's struggled is that he took a long time to figure out where he was supposed to be and what he was supposed to be doing in 07. As he figured these things out with some pretty brutal on-the-job training, he did show improvement that year. Improvement from liability to marginal starter. In 08, he seemed to regress before the injury officially ended his season.

So I'm looking at a guy who wasn't improving in 08 and was slow to figure out a simpler scheme coming into a new defense and returning from injury. Sure, he might create some havoc at the line. If I put on pads and ran in random directions around the line, I would probably cause some confusion too. That doesn't mean I'd be helping the defense. Meanwhile, RBs, TEs and WRs will be running past him and down the field.

I just think a lot of people put far too much weight on the few big plays he's had instead of his larger body of work that includes a lot shoddy play, bad angles taken at low speed, and broken coverages.

I don't think we can determine anything from his 2008 season. He had an interception in the first game, was injured in the second game and missed the next 5 completely (he wasn't even active). He tried to come back in game #7, but clearly was not ready. He was in and out for the next 5 games, starting but not lasting long in most of them because he simply could not run. He only lasted one or two series in several of the games. He played in only 7 games all year, and only the first before being injured.

Injuries have held him back more than anything else. The Packers didn't sign him until toward the end of 2005. He played very well in NFL-E that off season and was making a good impression back in GB. Going into camp a lot was expected from him, but he broke his hand early in camp and that shelved him for the first half of '06. In '07 he was healthy, had 3 forced fumbles, 5 interceptions, 21 passes defensed and more tackles than any DB since 1990. Sure he struggled a little bit early in '07, but those were his first real games in the NFL other than on ST.

I'm more concerned with his tendency toward injuries than anything else. He missed games late in '06 because of hamstring problems, too. If he stays healthy, I think he can be adequate.

I agree. I think the tard Bigby of last year has made you forgot how much he was on camera in 2007. You don't rack up all those tackles by being out of position. He was a missile that year.

[Waldo]

Bigby is my favorite Packer, by a good margin. His instincts are incredibly good, and he plays defense like it is supposed to be played.

[SnakeLH2006]

Bigby is my favorite Packer, by a good margin. His instincts are incredibly good, and he plays defense like it is supposed to be played.

Snake loves to rally behind the big play, but agrees Bigby is one of my faves too. His speed is fine for a SS and how many other safeties have we had the past few years who lacked awareness at times (Marquand Manual, Collins till last year, etc.)? I think he makes plays and his intimidation does come into play. The run-stuffing was a plus that we didn't get to see much of in 2008 from the S position.

Snake's all aboard the missile train, but would settle for a drunken parade float for sure. Healthy...Bigby will excel in the new 3-4 scheme getting some sacks, hits, tackles, etc. and fill a stat sheet for sure.

Hey, Fritz is that float on Youtube or what? Sounds damn entertaining for the waning yawns of February in WI...

[Bretsky]

My problem with that is that many of the same types of criticisms were leveled against Sharper and Collins (though admittedly against Andersen and Edwards, too). Safeties seem to often take three years to get it together, so I'm willing to give Bigby this year to prove he can or can't do it.

You think he's more Antwan Edwards, I think he's more Darren sharper

Sharper showed some great ball skills even early on in his career; Nick Collins has shown me from early on he can get a great jump on the ball.
I've always liked Sharper and feel like he's a better player than most in here think. He had one terrible year tackling (I think it was year two) when he took some terrible angles........but after that year IMO he was average at tackling and a good safety when healthy. Collins, I think he's always had the skills; he just needed to be more sure handed

I've always felt the upside for Bigby is very limited; he still reminds me of Chuck Cecil. I don't see the natural instincts in coverage or on the ball. He's serviceable but a guy that a good offensive coordinator can find ways to expose. I would not want to count on him covering a guy in the clutch. Great hitter but doesn't seem to get nearly the jump that Collins gets or doesn't have the nack for the ball that Sharper has.

I doubt he's a guy that is the long term answer; I'm happy to be wrong though

[SkinBasket]

Crazy how widely different views are on Bigby. Some people saw him making plays. Some people saw him benefiting from one of the best corner tandems in the league. Some people saw him blowing people up while others saw him running in the wrong direction. Some people saw him as intimidating while others saw TEs and RBs running past him like he was a fence post.

Maybe I have to admit that he can be as good as he can be bad, but I'm still not convinced that's worth the trade-off from a more consistent player. He apparently will be given every chance to have a good year if they plan on using him in a role where his weaknesses are limited, and for the team's sake, I hope he succeeds. I just don't think it'll happen if he's in the game on passing downs. I think it's more likely Rouse pulls his head out his ass and starts learning how to play the position. Sure, he doesn't have the hair or the kooky name, but I think he has a much better chance to be another Darren Sharper (not that that's such a great thing) than Bigby ever does considering the limitations the latter has demonstrated on-field.

The other half of the equation for me is I would be much more tolerant of having a guy like Bigby out there if we didn't have a guy with matching limitations in Poppinga on the field at the same time.