Tramon Williams holding out?

[sheepshead]

I wouldnt look at this kid one bit. I think he can be replaced easily. Sorry, show us something this year and we'll think about it. No way on giving him more money.

[bobblehead]

I find it humorous how guys want teams to be fair when they are in tough positions but then guys like Plaxico have a good post season and want to hold out and fuck up team chemistry and cause a distraction 2 years into a 5 year deal or whatever it was.

I warned at the time about this and I think I was the most outspoken person on telling grant to F off and wait til halfway through last season. I personally think that contract was bullshit, especially after his wonderful play in the '07 playoffs. TT offered him a decent deal for a guy with no leverage and his agent ran right to the press and used the BF situation to get more. We didn't buy out ONE SINGLE year of Grants FA years and we gave him something like 5+ million right out of the gates for his 6 good games in '07...and the best 6 game run of his life.

Sorry if I'm a contrarian but I loved TWill last season and I hope for the best, but I would offer him a 3 year 6 million dollar deal and if he didn't sign it I would tell him to F off too. He has no leverage and he has what....5 starts to his resume? And before anyone says that sounds fair believe me, he is looking for a lot more than that.

edit: For all you guys who like to use the JAG term to describe so many guys remember this....TWill is a guy who didn't get drafted and lost a training camp battle to jarret bush in '07....at this point he is JAG who has shown a few flashes...he deserves shit.

[sheepshead]

I think he gave up too many big plays, sorry, I just dont see him as the long term answer.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I think he gave up too many big plays, sorry, I just dont see him as the long term answer.

Let’s not forget how shitty the d-line was last year though. It’s hard to cover for 20 seconds. Also, keep in mind that the guy plays behind two pro bowl corners, who do you think the QB is going to target when he sees Woodson, Harris, and Williams?

The guy is improving every year and I think if he keeps getting better he can easily be a starter one day. Give the guy 1-2 million over the next couple years and force him to get even better if he wants a big pay day in the future.

[Patler]

edit: For all you guys who like to use the JAG term to describe so many guys remember this....TWill is a guy who didn't get drafted and lost a training camp battle to jarret bush in '07....at this point he is JAG who has shown a few flashes...he deserves shit.

I don't believe in taking extreme advantage of players just because you can. Like it or not, it causes disharmony, hurt feelings and complaining. A good locker room is important. But that doesn't mean the team has to sell out to the players either. It is sort of like dealing with your kids. While you do have power and authority over them, you must use it with discretion.

Grant last year and Williams this year are more than JAGs. Herron, Wynn, Bush, perhaps Blackmon as a cornerback are JAGs. Grant and Williams performed better than that. To me, with the proof provided from actual NFL performances, they should be considered overlooked or slow to blossom talent. They should be compared to equivalently perceived draft choices now. You should ask yourself where they would be drafted and what they would receive for a contract if they were drafted this year. That would fairly compensate them for their potential demonstrated by minimal NFL performances.

Grant got much more then this, but my position following 2007 was that Grant was as good of a prospect as Jackson was when Jackson was drafted, so Grant should have received a three year contract which coupled with his 2007 contract, would have paid him about the same as Jackson got in his rookie contract. You could draw a similar parallel between Williams and Lee, although I think Williams performance in 2008 makes him a better prospect now than Lee was when he was drafted. I think there is justification for an approach like that, with fairness to the team and the player.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I wouldnt look at this kid one bit. I think he can be replaced easily. Sorry, show us something this year and we'll think about it. No way on giving him more money.

Do you realize how many young CB-wannabees the packers cycle through before hitting on one as good as TW?

maybe he is just mediocre now, but who knows where he can go.

[pbmax]

We didn't buy out ONE SINGLE year of Grants FA years and we gave him something like 5+ million right out of the gates for his 6 good games in '07...and the best 6 game run of his life.

Grant is 26 and will by 27 at the end of the '09 season. Under the previous CBAs you get to UFA status after five years. His first year of UFA likely will be played at an age of 31. How many years of Grant do you want after age 30?

There is leverage and there is no leverage. Williams is much closer to no leverage. Grant was the only competent back on the roster as far as anyone could tell in the 08 offseason. He almost HAD to be the starter. His contract guaranteed him nothing except for his first year and the Packer's can break free of it after year two with little to no cap consequence (the hit even now is manageable).

Williams is the third CB, and while the nickel back might play 60% of the snaps, there are two more talented players in front of him and talent behind him. There are also veteran CBs falling off teams left and right. He has to learn a new defense. If Williams holds out, he is asking to be replaced.

[Waldo]

I think he gave up too many big plays, sorry, I just dont see him as the long term answer.

He also made a lot of plays.

He ranked #20 in the NFL in passes broken up. With Wood and Nick ahead of him, only 17 other teams in the NFL had any DB break up more passes than him.

He ranked #6 in the NFL in interceptions, by far the most of any nickel CB.

He ranked #17 in the NFL (tied with a lot of guys) in FF's

Overall he ranked #7 in the NFL in forced turnovers.

The two biggest mistakes with the Grant situation were the timing of it (they should have aggressively addressed the problem much earlier), and the amount (fault Grant here more then the team, were his demands lowered it would have been much smoother and fan sentiment not all up in arms).

I was all for a 2+3 optioned contract with Grant, paying him ~3M/yr for the first two years (3M SB, 2M/yr salary), then a year 3 option bonus of 5M and salaries of 4M thereafter. Cap structure would be 2.6M, 2.6M, 6.2M, 6.2M, 6.2M. He'd get 6M up front the first year, have a cheap year of 2M, then 9M the 3rd yr, and 4M each yr thereafter. I'm not sure why they didn't go this route, it had been done before in situations like this, with the "prove it" time built into the contract and the big payday for the player to play for.

That's exactly what I'm advocating for Tramon as well. I've met and talked to his agent, he seems like a real good guy. If TT grabs the bull by the horns this can go much smoother than it did with Grant. Especially with a different structured prove-it contract. It is already written in stone that Harris is not a starter in '10 by contract, his contract drops from 5.5M this year to 2M next year. So for Williams, offer a 2+3 with year 2 incentive bonus.

Same as I advocated with Grant, first two years of the deal, use a base salary of about 2M. Were he a RFA he likely would get a 1st tender, which is a base salary of 2M. Plus a modest signing bonus, roughly 3M or so, then boost the salaries to 4M the 3rd year and pay an option bonus of 5M. But year 2 offer a roster bonus incentive, 125K/gm that he starts, 2M if he starts each game. This makes it a 5yr, 26M deal max value. Structured with two prove it steps. The total cap hit per year assuming he earns every penny of the roster bonuses and the team picks up the option is 2.6M, 4.6M, 6.2M, 6.2M, 6.2M.

The team has outs with a contract like this. After the first year he can be cut the dead cap hit would be 2.4M, roughly a wash with the space saved from salary. If he doesn't earn the starting role year 2, his cap hit is 2.6M, nickel CB money. If he doesn't earn the starting role, and the team see's no future, they skip the option bonus, he becomes a FA, and the team has a 1.8M dead cap hit, the price to pay for the option to keep him. He becomes starter, they pick up the option, and is paid quite reasonably for a starter. Lots of protections in a contract like that for both the player and team, and pretty fair to both sides. Plus he has something to play for, starting year 2, and the option bonus year 3. No resting on the laurels, the big money is already in the contract, it is up to him to earn the big money 2nd half of the deal.

[Patler]

I wouldnt look at this kid one bit. I think he can be replaced easily. Sorry, show us something this year and we'll think about it. No way on giving him more money.

Do you realize how many young CB-wannabees the packers cycle through before hitting on one as good as TW?

maybe he is just mediocre now, but who knows where he can go.

I agree. Who would have thought that Ahmad Carrol, Joey Thomas, Bhawah Jue, Michael Hawthorne, Patrick Dendy, Mike Hawkins, Jason Horton and the like could be forgotten so easily? I feel much better with Tramon Williams than if any of these guys were available. Sure Williams made mistakes, but he also had 5 interceptions, 2 forced fumbles and played well-enough replacing Harris that teams did not have an easy time picking on him. That was a huge step forward from the performance of any 3rd CB in the last 5 years or more in GB.

Here is an opinion question for the masses:
In your opinion, when was the last time the Packers had a 3rd cornerback who played as well as Williams did in 2008?

[packers11]

I would give him a 5 year 15-20 mill dollar contract... He's only going to get better and Al Harris has a maximum of 2 years left (hes 35 right now)...

Get T-Wills locked for a very cheap price...

Just think how many teams lack a decent #2 cb... He is above average right now and could probably start at #2 on half of the teams in the NFL...

Have you seen some CB's contracts this offseason? Lock up T-Wills while hes on the rise and a lot cheaper than you could sign him in 1-2 years...

[pbmax]

Here is an opinion question for the masses:
In your opinion, when was the last time the Packers had a 3rd cornerback who played as well as Williams did in 2008?

I am pretty sure his last name was Williams too
Tyrone, if I recall, while we had Doug Evans and Craig Newsome.

[sheepshead]

I wouldnt look at this kid one bit. I think he can be replaced easily. Sorry, show us something this year and we'll think about it. No way on giving him more money.

Do you realize how many young CB-wannabees the packers cycle through before hitting on one as good as TW?

maybe he is just mediocre now, but who knows where he can go.

Exactly--lets see what he does this year. Im not saying dump him, but teams were scoring at will on us many games and he did little to stop them. There were games when teams went after him. Not exactly making offenses work around him by any means.

[Patler]

Here is an opinion question for the masses:
In your opinion, when was the last time the Packers had a 3rd cornerback who played as well as Williams did in 2008?

I am pretty sure his last name was Williams too
Tyrone, if I recall, while we had Doug Evans and Craig Newsome.

You are probably right! I can't think of anyone more recent than that.

[falco]

was hoping they would make some effort to get him locked up cheap last year...i think he will be one of our starting corners for the next 6-7 years or more, but this is a tough situation for the packers...he showed a lot of promise last year, but was still very green. best situation for him is to sign the tender and earn a big contract during the season this year.

[Partial]

I would try and lock him up now for 4-5 years. In all likelyhood, it won't cost enough that he'd be a liability in the event they had to cut him. I really like his potential and his knack for the turnover.

The Pack have all the leverage, and all the guy wants is some insurance to take care of his family. I'm cool with it. Throw a cool few mil per year at him and let him keep growing with the team and hopefully take over a starting spot when Al moves on.