Tramon Williams holding out?

[Fritz]

I think he gave up too many big plays, sorry, I just dont see him as the long term answer.

He also made a lot of plays.

He ranked #20 in the NFL in passes broken up. With Wood and Nick ahead of him, only 17 other teams in the NFL had any DB break up more passes than him.

He ranked #6 in the NFL in interceptions, by far the most of any nickel CB.

He ranked #17 in the NFL (tied with a lot of guys) in FF's

Overall he ranked #7 in the NFL in forced turnovers.

The two biggest mistakes with the Grant situation were the timing of it (they should have aggressively addressed the problem much earlier), and the amount (fault Grant here more then the team, were his demands lowered it would have been much smoother and fan sentiment not all up in arms).

I was all for a 2+3 optioned contract with Grant, paying him ~3M/yr for the first two years (3M SB, 2M/yr salary), then a year 3 option bonus of 5M and salaries of 4M thereafter. Cap structure would be 2.6M, 2.6M, 6.2M, 6.2M, 6.2M. He'd get 6M up front the first year, have a cheap year of 2M, then 9M the 3rd yr, and 4M each yr thereafter. I'm not sure why they didn't go this route, it had been done before in situations like this, with the "prove it" time built into the contract and the big payday for the player to play for.

That's exactly what I'm advocating for Tramon as well. I've met and talked to his agent, he seems like a real good guy. If TT grabs the bull by the horns this can go much smoother than it did with Grant. Especially with a different structured prove-it contract. It is already written in stone that Harris is not a starter in '10 by contract, his contract drops from 5.5M this year to 2M next year. So for Williams, offer a 2+3 with year 2 incentive bonus.

Same as I advocated with Grant, first two years of the deal, use a base salary of about 2M. Were he a RFA he likely would get a 1st tender, which is a base salary of 2M. Plus a modest signing bonus, roughly 3M or so, then boost the salaries to 4M the 3rd year and pay an option bonus of 5M. But year 2 offer a roster bonus incentive, 125K/gm that he starts, 2M if he starts each game. This makes it a 5yr, 26M deal max value. Structured with two prove it steps. The total cap hit per year assuming he earns every penny of the roster bonuses and the team picks up the option is 2.6M, 4.6M, 6.2M, 6.2M, 6.2M.

The team has outs with a contract like this. After the first year he can be cut the dead cap hit would be 2.4M, roughly a wash with the space saved from salary. If he doesn't earn the starting role year 2, his cap hit is 2.6M, nickel CB money. If he doesn't earn the starting role, and the team see's no future, they skip the option bonus, he becomes a FA, and the team has a 1.8M dead cap hit, the price to pay for the option to keep him. He becomes starter, they pick up the option, and is paid quite reasonably for a starter. Lots of protections in a contract like that for both the player and team, and pretty fair to both sides. Plus he has something to play for, starting year 2, and the option bonus year 3. No resting on the laurels, the big money is already in the contract, it is up to him to earn the big money 2nd half of the deal.

Aha! You're Russ Ball!

[RashanGary]

Wow, thanks for the run down on Williams production, Waldo. I've really liked him as a player for some time. I didn't have the numbers to back it up, but I thought he was a hell of a good young player. I love the way he challenges every ball. He's the anti Blackmon. Blackmon NEVER challenged a ball. Williams is always right there, making the play or damn near making it. He's always doing the right thing it seems. It's nice to see that impression backed up.

I still think this is a tad early. I'd love to do it half way through the season, after watching him in zone coverage. If he's a good zone corner, damn, he can play man too and that gives you a lot of flexibility in your coverage schemes. It allows Capers the ability to constantly mix it up where a guy like Harris is predictable.

Williams is fast becoming one of the core young players that looks like he's going to be a hell of a player for a long time (Driver, W. Henderson, M Tausher) type guy. Not a superstar, but a guy you don't want to live without.

[Joemailman]

Williams excelled last year when he replaced Al Harris as the starter. 4 of his interceptions occurred during this period. He didn't due as well when replacing Woodson. There was some talk last year that the Packers played more zone when Harris was out of the lineup, but went back to almost exclusive man defense when Harris returned. If this is the case, it would seem that Williams' ability to play zone effectively may be a more natural fit in the 3-4 defense than Harris.

If Williams and Jarrett Bush were both to sign the offers they have been tendered, Bush would make more money than Williams. I don't think anyone here would argue that Bush is worth more than Williams. If the Packers see him as Harris' eventual replacement, perhaps as early as 2010, they should give him a better contract now.

[falco]

Williams excelled last year when he replaced Al Harris as the starter. 4 of his interceptions occurred during this period. He didn't due as well when replacing Woodson. There was some talk last year that the Packers played more zone when Harris was out of the lineup, but went back to almost exclusive man defense when Harris returned. If this is the case, it would seem that Williams' ability to play zone effectively may be a more natural fit in the 3-4 defense than Harris.

If Williams and Jarrett Bush were both to sign the offers they have been tendered, Bush would make more money than Williams. I don't think anyone here would argue that Bush is worth more than Williams. If the Packers see him as Harris' eventual replacement, perhaps as early as 2010, they should give him a better contract now.

maybe it's best to give him a moderate sized deal (i.e. 2-3 years, 2-3 mil per year), and give him an extension with big $$$ when/if he outplays it

[Tarlam!]

With TT's philosophy of building a team, he needs to pay his players. TW is a player, so, pay the man.

[bobblehead]

edit: For all you guys who like to use the JAG term to describe so many guys remember this....TWill is a guy who didn't get drafted and lost a training camp battle to jarret bush in '07....at this point he is JAG who has shown a few flashes...he deserves shit.

I don't believe in taking extreme advantage of players just because you can. Like it or not, it causes disharmony, hurt feelings and complaining. A good locker room is important. But that doesn't mean the team has to sell out to the players either. It is sort of like dealing with your kids. While you do have power and authority over them, you must use it with discretion.

Grant last year and Williams this year are more than JAGs. Herron, Wynn, Bush, perhaps Blackmon as a cornerback are JAGs. Grant and Williams performed better than that. To me, with the proof provided from actual NFL performances, they should be considered overlooked or slow to blossom talent. They should be compared to equivalently perceived draft choices now. You should ask yourself where they would be drafted and what they would receive for a contract if they were drafted this year. That would fairly compensate them for their potential demonstrated by minimal NFL performances.

Grant got much more then this, but my position following 2007 was that Grant was as good of a prospect as Jackson was when Jackson was drafted, so Grant should have received a three year contract which coupled with his 2007 contract, would have paid him about the same as Jackson got in his rookie contract. You could draw a similar parallel between Williams and Lee, although I think Williams performance in 2008 makes him a better prospect now than Lee was when he was drafted. I think there is justification for an approach like that, with fairness to the team and the player.

If TT offered him the Lee contract he would be outraged, whine like a bitch and run to the press....I almost garauntee it. Grant was offered MORE than the Jackson contract and that is exactly what he did.

My 3 year 6 million is probably in the ballpark and i'm telling you he will cry like a schoolgirl if TT offers him that.

[LL2]

It doesn't sound like Williams is looking for a blockbuster contract, just something more adequate than what he made the last two years. I think he's a promising future starter. I'd have no problem paying him between 2-3 million a year and if the guy wants incentives on top of that give it to him. Contracts with incentives are the best ones. Also, DB's are getting some very lucrative deals now. If he can get 5 picks as a part time starter, then he's worth considering long term.

We probably also need to draft that Jenkins kid if can't get someone like Raji or Orakpo in the draft. If we draft Jenkins the secondary could be set for a handful of years.

[sheepshead]

It doesn't sound like Williams is looking for a blockbuster contract, just something more adequate than what he made the last two years. I think he's a promising future starter. I'd have no problem paying him between 2-3 million a year and if the guy wants incentives on top of that give it to him. Contracts with incentives are the best ones. Also, DB's are getting some very lucrative deals now. If he can get 5 picks as a part time starter, then he's worth considering long term.

We probably also need to draft that Jenkins kid if can't get someone like Raji or Orakpo in the draft. If we draft Jenkins the secondary could be set for a handful of years.

Yeah, maybe...its just this business of putting a gun to our heads before he's proven he can play everyday. There's lots of guys with "potential" not making $3 million a year.

[Patler]

If TT offered him the Lee contract he would be outraged, whine like a bitch and run to the press....I almost garauntee it. Grant was offered MORE than the Jackson contract and that is exactly what he did.

My 3 year 6 million is probably in the ballpark and i'm telling you he will cry like a schoolgirl if TT offers him that.

I think Williams situation is different from that of Grant last year.

What did TT offer Grant that he declined, other than the minimum tender in Feb? I am seriously asking, because I don't know this.

When did Grant "whine like a bitch and run to the press". I thought it was handled fairly low-key for the way these things can go. If anything, Favre helped Grant more than any complaining that Grant did. The Packers really didn't need two roster confrontations at the same time. Grant's agent took advantage of that.

[bobblehead]

I would give him a 5 year 15-20 mill dollar contract... He's only going to get better and Al Harris has a maximum of 2 years left (hes 35 right now)...

Get T-Wills locked for a very cheap price...

Just think how many teams lack a decent #2 cb... He is above average right now and could probably start at #2 on half of the teams in the NFL...

Have you seen some CB's contracts this offseason? Lock up T-Wills while hes on the rise and a lot cheaper than you could sign him in 1-2 years...

I'm telling you right now if you offered him 5/15 he would in no way sign it.

He is a guy with potential, but I'm sick of that (cletidus hunt anyone). I think that Bigby was better at the end of '07 and in the playoffs than Williams was replacing Harris. Bigby signed his deal. Williams options are go work at mcdonalds or sign his tender. I would like to see TT offer something like 3/yrs 6mill but with 3 mil garaunteed but it won't ever happen and he wouldn't sign it anyway.

I still hate the grant contract cuz he basically got 5 mill garaunteed. Thats money he didn't really earn last year. Sorry if I think RB is the easiest position to fill....make holes, watch him run. There are a few Adrian Petersons in the league, but Grant isn't one of them.

I just think that guys who we rescue off the scrap heap, coach into players should sign the deals untiil they are free agents (or until the team offers more).

[bobblehead]

If TT offered him the Lee contract he would be outraged, whine like a bitch and run to the press....I almost garauntee it. Grant was offered MORE than the Jackson contract and that is exactly what he did.

My 3 year 6 million is probably in the ballpark and i'm telling you he will cry like a schoolgirl if TT offers him that.

I think Williams situation is different from that of Grant last year.

What did TT offer Grant that he declined, other than the minimum tender in Feb? I am seriously asking, because I don't know this.

When did Grant "whine like a bitch and run to the press". I thought it was handled fairly low-key for the way these things can go. If anything, Favre helped Grant more than any complaining that Grant did. The Packers really didn't need two roster confrontations at the same time. Grant's agent took advantage of that.

I'm too lazy to look it up, but right before camp they offered him a deal that was comparable to what all the rats thought would be pretty fair. His agent IMMEDIATELY ran to the press over it. I'll try to find the PR thread on it.

[Patler]

Yeah, maybe...its just this business of putting a gun to our heads before he's proven he can play everyday.

Heck, drafted rookies who have never even had an NFL practice do that all the time. At least these guys have shown something in NFL games. Grant and Williams have been presented with opportunities to improve their situations from that of "undrafted rookie free agents" with a year or two of experience, the lowest rung on the ladder of player salaries, to something better than that. I can't blame them for trying to take advantage of it.

[bobblehead]

Yeah, maybe...its just this business of putting a gun to our heads before he's proven he can play everyday.

Heck, drafted rookies who have never even had an NFL practice do that all the time. At least these guys have shown something in NFL games. Grant and Williams have been presented with opportunities to improve their situations from that of "undrafted rookie free agents" with a year or two of experience, the lowest rung on the ladder of player salaries, to something better than that. I can't blame them for trying to take advantage of it.

Like I said, when he signs a team friendly upgrade to the minimum I'll apologize, but I'm pretty confident that he will want a sizable contract.

[Patler]

Like I said, when he signs a team friendly upgrade to the minimum I'll apologize, but I'm pretty confident that he will want a sizable contract.

I guess I just don't see why negotiating to get the best that you can, when you have no contract, is a bad thing or something to condemn a player for. Very few undrafted players get the opportunity that Grant or Williams have had. They had/have a stack of chips to play. I have no problem with them playing their stacks.

[Patler]

Like I said, when he signs a team friendly upgrade to the minimum I'll apologize, but I'm pretty confident that he will want a sizable contract.

Unlike most on here, I think Grant's contract was fairly team-friendly. Not one sided in favor of the team, to be sure; but not a bad contract for the team either.