Tramon Williams holding out?

[sheepshead]

Yeah, maybe...its just this business of putting a gun to our heads before he's proven he can play everyday.

Heck, drafted rookies who have never even had an NFL practice do that all the time. At least these guys have shown something in NFL games. Grant and Williams have been presented with opportunities to improve their situations from that of "undrafted rookie free agents" with a year or two of experience, the lowest rung on the ladder of player salaries, to something better than that. I can't blame them for trying to take advantage of it.

As I have stated numerous times, the NFL draft is the biggest most expensive crap shoot in all of sports. There should be a rookie cap and any GM that could get something of value for its 1st round pick should get out of the first round.

[sharpe1027]

Here is an opinion question for the masses:
In your opinion, when was the last time the Packers had a 3rd cornerback who played as well as Williams did in 2008?

I am pretty sure his last name was Williams too
Tyrone, if I recall, while we had Doug Evans and Craig Newsome.

Car trunks everywhere were scared of Tyrone.

[Zool]

Like I said, when he signs a team friendly upgrade to the minimum I'll apologize, but I'm pretty confident that he will want a sizable contract.

I guess I just don't see why negotiating to get the best that you can, when you have no contract, is a bad thing or something to condemn a player for. Very few undrafted players get the opportunity that Grant or Williams have had. They had/have a stack of chips to play. I have no problem with them playing their stacks.

Exactly. He's not under contract so he's not holding out. He's just not able to shop his wares anywhere but GB. It will be hard to have an incentive laden contract for a nickle back but something will get done.

[pbmax]

As I have stated numerous times, the NFL draft is the biggest most expensive crap shoot in all of sports. There should be a rookie cap and any GM that could get something of value for its 1st round pick should get out of the first round.

Only the first 15 picks of the first round are ridiculous. The rest of the draft contracts are reasonable. Not undrafted reasonable (the subject of this thread can attest to that), but perfectly manageable. The first 10 picks are insane. Peter King had an item last week about the money the Patriots saved by not getting the number 3 overall pick. Its 4 additional players from the end of the 1st and the second round.

[red]

to me it comes down to how much he wants

if they just offered him the minimum, and he wants a bit more and a longer contract then fine

but if he wants something like 3 or 4 million a yearover 4 or 5 years then i would say no, let him rot

i've said before, i'm just not sold on him being our future starter. so if he wants starter money then i would say he's not worth it right now

but like someone else said, you can't blame the guy for wanting a longer deal, and some more money. and he hasn't missed anything yet

of course he is our nickleback, and we are sitting on 30 some million in free cap space. and chances are we aren't going to be using it all this season. so why not throw the dog a bone. maybe give him a couple million for one year and see what happens

[sheepshead]

As I have stated numerous times, the NFL draft is the biggest most expensive crap shoot in all of sports. There should be a rookie cap and any GM that could get something of value for its 1st round pick should get out of the first round.

Only the first 15 picks of the first round are ridiculous. The rest of the draft contracts are reasonable. Not undrafted reasonable (the subject of this thread can attest to that), but perfectly manageable. The first 10 picks are insane. Peter King had an item last week about the money the Patriots saved by not getting the number 3 overall pick. Its 4 additional players from the end of the 1st and the second round.

Look this up-one in three is a serious contributor, 1/3 are out of football in five years, 1/3 are serviceable.Just look at previous year drafts. Youll see names you havent heard from since draft day.

[Pugger]

I don't remember Grant bitching about his contract to the press last summer either. Of course there were 'other' distractions keeping TT and company busy during that time.

[Fritz]

Somebody wrote earlier that Favre may have been the biggest factor in helping Grant get a better contract.

This got me thinking: maybe Favre should start a new career as a player agent. He could threaten to come back every year, piss off the fans, put pressure on management of whatever team has his rights (he'd represent players on that team only), and whoever his client was on that team would get a bigger contract than otherwise.

Cool biz. Brett "Bus" Favre. The heck with ESPN and endorsements. Brett would be an agent.

[Patler]

Somebody wrote earlier that Favre may have been the biggest factor in helping Grant get a better contract.

This got me thinking: maybe Favre should start a new career as a player agent. He could threaten to come back every year, piss off the fans, put pressure on management of whatever team has his rights (he'd represent players on that team only), and whoever his client was on that team would get a bigger contract than otherwise.

Cool biz. Brett "Bus" Favre. The heck with ESPN and endorsements. Brett would be an agent.

The way you describe his approach, he might be more like Brett "Favrenhaus"! A Drew Rosenhaus in reverse. Instead of threatening to holdout, he threatens to return! A new take on an old tactic! Genius!

[cpk1994]

Somebody wrote earlier that Favre may have been the biggest factor in helping Grant get a better contract.

This got me thinking: maybe Favre should start a new career as a player agent. He could threaten to come back every year, piss off the fans, put pressure on management of whatever team has his rights (he'd represent players on that team only), and whoever his client was on that team would get a bigger contract than otherwise.

Cool biz. Brett "Bus" Favre. The heck with ESPN and endorsements. Brett would be an agent.

The way you describe his approach, he might be more like Brett "Favrenhaus"! A Drew Rosenhaus in reverse. Instead of threatening to holdout, he threatens to return! A new take on an old tactic! Genius!

Not to mention that Drew's way to answer every question is "Next Question!" while Brett talks forever.

[bobblehead]

I don't remember Grant bitching about his contract to the press last summer either. Of course there were 'other' distractions keeping TT and company busy during that time.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/29548649.html

I'd pick out some juicy quotes from Grants agent, but that would be a problem with JSO so you will have to click the link.

Funny how some people remember history differently.

[Guiness]

to me it comes down to how much he wants

if they just offered him the minimum, and he wants a bit more and a longer contract then fine

but if he wants something like 3 or 4 million a yearover 4 or 5 years then i would say no, let him rot

i've said before, i'm just not sold on him being our future starter. so if he wants starter money then i would say he's not worth it right now

but like someone else said, you can't blame the guy for wanting a longer deal, and some more money. and he hasn't missed anything yet

of course he is our nickleback, and we are sitting on 30 some million in free cap space. and chances are we aren't going to be using it all this season. so why not throw the dog a bone. maybe give him a couple million for one year and see what happens

What a mess. Yes, it's a ridiculous situation with Pat Lee and Jared Bush making more money than him, but his situation is what it is. UFA who put it together last year. I think you can probably draw a straight line between Grant's refusal to sign and his, and Rodgers getting a deal halfway through his first season starting.

IMO GB will tell him to sign, be a good boy, and they'll talk during the season. Of course, none of us know what has already gone on between the two parties, but you have to think these discussions could've been kept a little quieter???

[bobblehead]

Like I said, when he signs a team friendly upgrade to the minimum I'll apologize, but I'm pretty confident that he will want a sizable contract.

I guess I just don't see why negotiating to get the best that you can, when you have no contract, is a bad thing or something to condemn a player for. Very few undrafted players get the opportunity that Grant or Williams have had. They had/have a stack of chips to play. I have no problem with them playing their stacks.

Exactly. He's not under contract so he's not holding out. He's just not able to shop his wares anywhere but GB. It will be hard to have an incentive laden contract for a nickle back but something will get done.

I'm fond of this argument...I really am. JWalk wasn't able to shop his wares anywhere but GB either. He had exactly the same options. His contract was more or less "slotted" based on where he was picked. TWills contract offer from GB is slotted based on not being drafted.

As I said at the time, If we had actually drafted Grant in the 7th round and everything went down identically do you think he gets a 5 million dollar bonus? No. Would you be saying...well, he is under contract and should play it out?? These guys are being REWARDED for not being drafted by your argument.

JWalk TWill and Grant all had exactly the same options....play for the money on the table or sit at home. If all Grant wanted was a JWalk contract I would have had no problem with it, but we offered him something close to a JWalk contract and his agent had a hissy fit. Same goes for TWill, if he wants 1 million this year or 6 million over 3 years I am all for him...you go boy!! But that is not what he is looking for.

[Patler]

Like I said, when he signs a team friendly upgrade to the minimum I'll apologize, but I'm pretty confident that he will want a sizable contract.

I guess I just don't see why negotiating to get the best that you can, when you have no contract, is a bad thing or something to condemn a player for. Very few undrafted players get the opportunity that Grant or Williams have had. They had/have a stack of chips to play. I have no problem with them playing their stacks.

Exactly. He's not under contract so he's not holding out. He's just not able to shop his wares anywhere but GB. It will be hard to have an incentive laden contract for a nickle back but something will get done.

I'm fond of this argument...I really am. JWalk wasn't able to shop his wares anywhere but GB either. He had exactly the same options. His contract was more or less "slotted" based on where he was picked. TWills contract offer from GB is slotted based on not being drafted.

As I said at the time, If we had actually drafted Grant in the 7th round and everything went down identically do you think he gets a 5 million dollar bonus? No. Would you be saying...well, he is under contract and should play it out?? These guys are being REWARDED for not being drafted by your argument.

JWalk TWill and Grant all had exactly the same options....play for the money on the table or sit at home. If all Grant wanted was a JWalk contract I would have had no problem with it, but we offered him something close to a JWalk contract and his agent had a hissy fit. Same goes for TWill, if he wants 1 million this year or 6 million over 3 years I am all for him...you go boy!! But that is not what he is looking for.

There is a big difference, Walker had a contract, Grant and Williams did not. Walker could have held out before he signed his rookie contract. Many do just to get the deal sweetened a bit. Many others do whenever their contracts expire.

Grant and Williams were not "slotted", they were offered minimums which they declined and opened negotiations. Not all undrafted rookies sign close to the same contracts. Some get bonuses, some get better than minimums, Some sign multi-year (usually two year) contracts while others do single years. A few years back the Packers signed an undrafted rookie (I've forgotten who, but I think it was a lineman) and paid him more than their last draft picks. They gave Jon Ryan something like $50K in bonuses and a multi-year contract.

Grant and Williams aren't being rewarded for not being drafted, they are being rewarded for not being drafted AND performing as well as high round picks while having risked (or maybe offered) only a short term contract. Some guys make out like bandits for being drafted high even though they perform lousy (Ryan Leaf, J. Reynolds, Mandarich, etc.) In Grants case he made out well by not being drafted, signing a single year contract, and performing very well in 2007. Who would you rather pay?

[Guiness]

here is a big difference, Walker had a contract, Grant and Williams did not. Walker could have held out before he signed his rookie contract. Many do just to get the deal sweetened a bit. Many others do whenever their contracts expire.

Grant and Williams were not "slotted", they were offered minimums which they declined and opened negotiations. Not all undrafted rookies sign close to the same contracts. Some get bonuses, some get better than minimums, Some sign multi-year (usually two year) contracts while others do single years. A few years back the Packers signed an undrafted rookie (I've forgotten who, but I think it was a lineman) and paid him more than their last draft picks. They gave Jon Ryan something like $50K in bonuses and a multi-year contract.

Grant and Williams aren't being rewarded for not being drafted, they are being rewarded for not being drafted AND performing as well as high round picks while having risked (or maybe offered) only a short term contract. Some guys make out like bandits for being drafted high even though they perform lousy (Ryan Leaf, J. Reynolds, Mandarich, etc.) In Grants case he made out well by not being drafted, signing a single year contract, and performing very well in 2007. Who would you rather pay?

As I said earlier, this situation is a mess. Patler's right, TWill is doing nothing wrong by refusing to sign - and Grant didn't either. Their not under contract, and don't have to accept what they are offered if they don't want to. Of course, their alternatives aren't even as good Kurt Warner's were oh-so-long ago. They can stock shelves at the local supermarket, but the Packers retain their rights, so they can't go to another team.

I'm not sure what the solution is. The Packers have shown a willingness to renegotiate with a player who out-performs, but the question for a guy like TWill is 'when?' Maybe they shouldn't offer the minimum to a guy like TWill in the first place?

I think this is an area the CBA is weak in in general. I don't know that the minimum should be increased - does a Jason Hunter or Joe Porter deserve a raise because Williams played well?

If he refuses to sign, and GB plays hardball, not releasing or upping the offer, he's effectively out of the NFL, right? That doesn't seem right, but on the other hand GB took a chance, developed him, and he turned into a player. They should get something out of that.

I almost think they should put him on the block for a 2nd round pick. If no one comes knocking tell him 'you want to be paid like a 2nd rounder, but no one will give one up for you'. If someone does offer it up, well, you've got yourself a second round pick. The problem with this, of course, is if no one offered it, Tramon would probably have his nose pretty far out of joint over this.