Tramon Williams holding out?

[MadtownPacker]

Al aint gonna last forever and Woodson isnt brand new either. T-Will has shown much more than Grant ever did. This is the guy to spend money on. Pay your own is true and this is the time to do it. I would not hold it against TT at all if somehow he didn't pan out.

[bobblehead]

Like I said, when he signs a team friendly upgrade to the minimum I'll apologize, but I'm pretty confident that he will want a sizable contract.

I guess I just don't see why negotiating to get the best that you can, when you have no contract, is a bad thing or something to condemn a player for. Very few undrafted players get the opportunity that Grant or Williams have had. They had/have a stack of chips to play. I have no problem with them playing their stacks.

Exactly. He's not under contract so he's not holding out. He's just not able to shop his wares anywhere but GB. It will be hard to have an incentive laden contract for a nickle back but something will get done.

I'm fond of this argument...I really am. JWalk wasn't able to shop his wares anywhere but GB either. He had exactly the same options. His contract was more or less "slotted" based on where he was picked. TWills contract offer from GB is slotted based on not being drafted.

As I said at the time, If we had actually drafted Grant in the 7th round and everything went down identically do you think he gets a 5 million dollar bonus? No. Would you be saying...well, he is under contract and should play it out?? These guys are being REWARDED for not being drafted by your argument.

JWalk TWill and Grant all had exactly the same options....play for the money on the table or sit at home. If all Grant wanted was a JWalk contract I would have had no problem with it, but we offered him something close to a JWalk contract and his agent had a hissy fit. Same goes for TWill, if he wants 1 million this year or 6 million over 3 years I am all for him...you go boy!! But that is not what he is looking for.

There is a big difference, Walker had a contract, Grant and Williams did not. Walker could have held out before he signed his rookie contract. Many do just to get the deal sweetened a bit. Many others do whenever their contracts expire.

Grant and Williams were not "slotted", they were offered minimums which they declined and opened negotiations. Not all undrafted rookies sign close to the same contracts. Some get bonuses, some get better than minimums, Some sign multi-year (usually two year) contracts while others do single years. A few years back the Packers signed an undrafted rookie (I've forgotten who, but I think it was a lineman) and paid him more than their last draft picks. They gave Jon Ryan something like $50K in bonuses and a multi-year contract.

Grant and Williams aren't being rewarded for not being drafted, they are being rewarded for not being drafted AND performing as well as high round picks while having risked (or maybe offered) only a short term contract. Some guys make out like bandits for being drafted high even though they perform lousy (Ryan Leaf, J. Reynolds, Mandarich, etc.) In Grants case he made out well by not being drafted, signing a single year contract, and performing very well in 2007. Who would you rather pay?

I respectfully disagree. Grant and Williiams by not being drafted basically had each seasons salary slotted in stone until they became UFA. Walker by being drafted (16?) had his contract slotted based on history, CBA, and contracts around him that year.

Sure he could have held out as a rookie, but we would be squeeling about a guy never proving anything in the NFL holding out. Bottom line, he outplayed his rookie contract significantly when he held out. TWill and Grant have outplayed the tender. I really honestly fail to see a big difference. JWalk had every right to withhold his services and sit home....so does TWill. The Packers have every right to tell them to enjoy the couch.

[bobblehead]

here is a big difference, Walker had a contract, Grant and Williams did not. Walker could have held out before he signed his rookie contract. Many do just to get the deal sweetened a bit. Many others do whenever their contracts expire.

Grant and Williams were not "slotted", they were offered minimums which they declined and opened negotiations. Not all undrafted rookies sign close to the same contracts. Some get bonuses, some get better than minimums, Some sign multi-year (usually two year) contracts while others do single years. A few years back the Packers signed an undrafted rookie (I've forgotten who, but I think it was a lineman) and paid him more than their last draft picks. They gave Jon Ryan something like $50K in bonuses and a multi-year contract.

Grant and Williams aren't being rewarded for not being drafted, they are being rewarded for not being drafted AND performing as well as high round picks while having risked (or maybe offered) only a short term contract. Some guys make out like bandits for being drafted high even though they perform lousy (Ryan Leaf, J. Reynolds, Mandarich, etc.) In Grants case he made out well by not being drafted, signing a single year contract, and performing very well in 2007. Who would you rather pay?

As I said earlier, this situation is a mess. Patler's right, TWill is doing nothing wrong by refusing to sign - and Grant didn't either. Their not under contract, and don't have to accept what they are offered if they don't want to. Of course, their alternatives aren't even as good Kurt Warner's were oh-so-long ago. They can stock shelves at the local supermarket, but the Packers retain their rights, so they can't go to another team.

I'm not sure what the solution is. The Packers have shown a willingness to renegotiate with a player who out-performs, but the question for a guy like TWill is 'when?' Maybe they shouldn't offer the minimum to a guy like TWill in the first place?

I think this is an area the CBA is weak in in general. I don't know that the minimum should be increased - does a Jason Hunter or Joe Porter deserve a raise because Williams played well?

If he refuses to sign, and GB plays hardball, not releasing or upping the offer, he's effectively out of the NFL, right? That doesn't seem right, but on the other hand GB took a chance, developed him, and he turned into a player. They should get something out of that.

I almost think they should put him on the block for a 2nd round pick. If no one comes knocking tell him 'you want to be paid like a 2nd rounder, but no one will give one up for you'. If someone does offer it up, well, you've got yourself a second round pick. The problem with this, of course, is if no one offered it, Tramon would probably have his nose pretty far out of joint over this.

MYTH....he does NOT want to be paid like a second rounder. Bet me on it, name the wager. If TT offered him the BJack contract he would whine like a schoolgirl.

[Partial]

Assumption. He knows he doesn't have any leverage. He just wants a cushion so if he retires he doesn't have to work again. Give him 2-3 mil and let him live off the interest. He'll be fine. He doesn't have any leverage.

[Guiness]

I respectfully disagree. Grant and Williiams by not being drafted basically had each seasons salary slotted in stone until they became UFA. Walker by being drafted (16?) had his contract slotted based on history, CBA, and contracts around him that year.

Sure he could have held out as a rookie, but we would be squeeling about a guy never proving anything in the NFL holding out. Bottom line, he outplayed his rookie contract significantly when he held out. TWill and Grant have outplayed the tender. I really honestly fail to see a big difference. JWalk had every right to withhold his services and sit home....so does TWill. The Packers have every right to tell them to enjoy the couch.

Actually, I would say he has a lot more right than JWalk to sit at home; and the repercussions are different. Javon had a contract - which undoubtedly included daily fines for not showing up. The Pack could've fined him that amount every day he missed. If TWill decides not to show up, then he's just not there.

[Guiness]

MYTH....he does NOT want to be paid like a second rounder. Bet me on it, name the wager. If TT offered him the BJack contract he would whine like a schoolgirl.

We don't know, but what you're saying is a good assumption. You're missing my point though - it was that when no one will give up a second rounder, it's something the Pack can point to and say 'see, you're not even worth that.'

This idea doesn't work in reality of course, because he'd be one disgruntled employee after this type of treatment.

[Patler]

I respectfully disagree. Grant and Williiams by not being drafted basically had each seasons salary slotted in stone until they became UFA. Walker by being drafted (16?) had his contract slotted based on history, CBA, and contracts around him that year.

Sure he could have held out as a rookie, but we would be squeeling about a guy never proving anything in the NFL holding out. Bottom line, he outplayed his rookie contract significantly when he held out. TWill and Grant have outplayed the tender. I really honestly fail to see a big difference. JWalk had every right to withhold his services and sit home....so does TWill. The Packers have every right to tell them to enjoy the couch.

OK, we have numerous points of disagreement.

Why would any player have 4 contracts slotted in stone, just because they weren't drafted? The only thing I will agree tends to be slotted is the initial compensation for the first contract signed by a player. Thereafter, any contract he signs reflects past NFL performance, whether it is a FA contract, a renegotiated contract, or an RFA contract based on the various levels of RFA tenders.

Rookie contracts tend to be slotted, but performance bonuses can be negotiated into them. "Slotting" affects only the face value of the contract. Spitz agent was good enough to negotiate in a $1M bonus that Spitz earned last year. That is not part of any "slotting" and will result in Spitz being paid as well as Colledge through the first four years, even though Colledge was drafted about 30 "slots" higher. It is those types of things that rookies will sometime hold out for. Rodgers negotiated a bunch of performance bonuses that would have paid him extremely well, some say at a top 5 level, if he had become a starter earlier in his career. That's not part of "slotting". What the ERFAs are doing is really no different. Increased pay based on past performance. Grant and Williams both deserve more than a 2nd or 3rd year free agent off the street signed to be the bottom of the roster and inactive on game days.

I completely disagree that Walker outperformed his contract. Not even close, in my opinion. Not at the time he was complaining. He was paid over $5M the first two years, and did little. Yes, his third year was very good, but to that point he had been paid very well, too. If he had produced in his fourth year (and I believe he had a 5 year rookie contract) he maybe could have argued that he outplayed his contract, but not after just one decent year.

[Merlin]

Man, giving in to Grant last year is just going to keep biting us in the ass, isn't it?

That was probably Thompson's biggest mistake so far.

His biggest mistake? Maybe his biggest contractual mistake but by no means his biggest mistake to date.

[bobblehead]

I respectfully disagree. Grant and Williiams by not being drafted basically had each seasons salary slotted in stone until they became UFA. Walker by being drafted (16?) had his contract slotted based on history, CBA, and contracts around him that year.

Sure he could have held out as a rookie, but we would be squeeling about a guy never proving anything in the NFL holding out. Bottom line, he outplayed his rookie contract significantly when he held out. TWill and Grant have outplayed the tender. I really honestly fail to see a big difference. JWalk had every right to withhold his services and sit home....so does TWill. The Packers have every right to tell them to enjoy the couch.

OK, we have numerous points of disagreement.

Why would any player have 4 contracts slotted in stone, just because they weren't drafted? The only thing I will agree tends to be slotted is the initial compensation for the first contract signed by a player. Thereafter, any contract he signs reflects past NFL performance, whether it is a FA contract, a renegotiated contract, or an RFA contract based on the various levels of RFA tenders.

Rookie contracts tend to be slotted, but performance bonuses can be negotiated into them. "Slotting" affects only the face value of the contract. Spitz agent was good enough to negotiate in a $1M bonus that Spitz earned last year. That is not part of any "slotting" and will result in Spitz being paid as well as Colledge through the first four years, even though Colledge was drafted about 30 "slots" higher. It is those types of things that rookies will sometime hold out for. Rodgers negotiated a bunch of performance bonuses that would have paid him extremely well, some say at a top 5 level, if he had become a starter earlier in his career. That's not part of "slotting". What the ERFAs are doing is really no different. Increased pay based on past performance. Grant and Williams both deserve more than a 2nd or 3rd year free agent off the street signed to be the bottom of the roster and inactive on game days.

I completely disagree that Walker outperformed his contract. Not even close, in my opinion. Not at the time he was complaining. He was paid over $5M the first two years, and did little. Yes, his third year was very good, but to that point he had been paid very well, too. If he had produced in his fourth year (and I believe he had a 5 year rookie contract) he maybe could have argued that he outplayed his contract, but not after just one decent year.

These will all be great points as soon as TWill signs a 4 year deal sort of like JWalks but that isn't what he wants.

JWalk had exactly the same right that TWill has....play or sit. Sure, they could fine him and do the other things allowed by the CBA, but he had every right to sit and pay the fines and accept the consequences.

Spitz and College have done a lot more than TWill has so far in their career....will he sign a deal comparable to theirs?? Will he report if we give him a 1million dollar bonus like spitz got?

Bottom line is this (for my opinion). He is telling us volumes about what kind of guy he is. He is also feeling bold because we caved to grant last year after about the same amount of starts. This team is going to have to take a stand at some point or next year it will be anyone else who "outplayed" his deal or is an RFA.