Hey Old School! - The 90's Packers and the 3-4 defense?

[CaptainKickass]

So I was watching the superbowl 32 loss to the broncos as a replay on the NFL Network the other day.

I noticed that there were frequent 3-4 alignments in that game. I was too young at the time to really "know" about defensive schemes and alignments as most of my scheme education has come from the internet (like this site for example ) I remember the futility of the Pack until the Majik man came along - and then turned into the "Tragic Man" via injury and launched Favre's career. I was in my teens and not nearly as analytical as I am now. I just enjoyed the violence of the game as well as waiting for "spectacular" plays.

So now that I look back, I have a few questions:

Did we use the 3-4 defense primarily under Fritz during the 90's? I know big Gilbert Brown was a great NT and one of my favorite players with his "gravedigger" celebration, but I didn't realize how the D-line was being used in that game until I re-watched it.

Did we use the 3-4 during the superbowl 31 victory? I remember being the #1 rated defense in the league after the acquisition of Reggie White. I mostly remember him, Gilbert, and Santana Dotson on the D-line.

It may say a lot if we were a 3-4 defense primarily. It may say even more if we were a "hybrid". I wonder how much success other teams have had who have combined a west coast offense with a 3-4 defense. Is this something MM/TT are trying to "recapture" so to speak?

How do our current linebackers compare to the 95-97 teams? How about the secondary? I know Butler was supreme - but what about the rest? I feel like we're better in the secondary now as a result of AL/Chuck Woodson, but maybe it's a wash.

Just looking for some clariry from maybe some of the Rats here that are a few years older than me.

Thanks.

[KYPack]

I posted on this a few months ago.

Our SB champs in '96 were a 4-3 defense.

After the '79 season, HC Bart Starr fired long time Packer player and coach, DC Hawg Hanner, and hired John Meyer as the new DC after the Packer defense ranked among the league's worst groups. With Meyer came the installation of the 3-4 defense. The 3-4 was the rage in the NFL in '80. Sixteen of the league's 28 teams were running the scheme by the '80 season. By 1985, the 3-4 reached it's high water mark. 23 of the NFL's 28 teams were using the 3-4 as their base D in '85.

NFL teams have been using the 3-4 for years. The 3-4 basically started in the 70's, with Houston and New England generally credited for being the innovators and implementers that first used it in '74. Teams go back and forth since that time from the 3-4 to the 4-3 for a variety of reasons

The Packers would use the 3-4 as the base of their defense from 1980 until Fritz Shurmur re-instated the 4-3 defense in the off-season of '94. ('93 saw the addition of Reggie White and you could point to the '93 season as the end of the strict 3-4 scheme under Ray Rhodes as DC).

The Pack would have some success with the 3-4 in the 14 or so years that they ran the scheme. In general, the Packers finished in the middle of the league's 28 teams while using a 3-4. The first year of using 3 down lineman was a disaster. GB was actually worse defensively that they had been the previous season. Then the team became acclimated to the new base D and made good improvement. The '81 & '82 clubs finished 9th, then 8th respectively out of 28 on D .

Then came the nightmare year, '83. The Starr-lead '83 team was an offensive juggernaut. Courageous QB Lynn Dickey was a tough field general with a strong arm and a ton of guts. His targets were All-Pro caliber receivers, who were fast and smart. Paul Coffman, James Lofton, and John Jefferson combined for 26 touchdowns and were threats to break long ones any time they caught a ball. The running backs were also solid pass catchers as well as good running backs. Even the fourth string back and Rat poster, Harlan Huckleby was good for 4 touchdowns as the Packers racked up 429 points. The problem was the defense. Meyer's boys were last in the NFL. 28th out of 28 teams, allowing 50 touchdowns, 6,403 yards (400.2 yds/GM), and giving up 439 points. They were one of the leagues top offenses with the leagues worst D. Starr's 9th year as coach was his last as the 8-8 record wasn't enough to off-set that horrible 3-4 defense. With Starr went DC John Meyer.

The Packers would stay with the 3-4 for approximately 10 more seasons. Forrest Gregg had used a 3-4 in his previous coaching seasons as had Gregg successor, Lindy Infante. Enter Mike Holmgren who had coached at SF, who used a 4-3. Most observers expected Holmgren to junk the 3-4, which he eventually did.

The addition of Reggie and DC Fritz Shurmer meant the death of the 3-4 in GB until '09 and the addition of Dom Capers as DC.

[texaspackerbacker]

But what Kickass is saying is that Shurmer occasionally went back to the 3-4.

My memory of that era is hazy, but I seem to recall Gilbert Brown lined up on the center's nose once in a while--which would make it either a 3-4 or some kind of 5 man line or some kind of an off set 4-3.

[Waldo]

Fritz used everything from a 2-5 to a 5-2 at various points. We may have been a base 4-3 team, but he changed stuff up a lot and was not afraid to run any formation that his guys could execute.

[cpk1994]

Fritz used everything from a 2-5 to a 5-2 at various points. We may have been a base 4-3 team, but he changed stuff up a lot and was not afraid to run any formation that his guys could execute.

Case in point, the divisional playoff game at San Francisco in Jan '96. Steve Young was seeing ghosts by the end of the game. Shurmer had used just about every formation known to man..

[hoosier]

You can watch the entirety of SB32 on youtube in 10 minute installments (at least until the NFL's lawyers find it and force them to take it down). I haven't seen any uses of a 3-4 formation; it's always Reggie, Santana Dotson, Gilbert and Gabe Wilkins/Darius Holland. It's certainly possible that Fritz went to the 3-4 on occasion and I just missed it (Reggie and Gilbert were getting exhausted by the Bronco OL and Wilkins got hurt). But the 3-4 would definitely have been an exotic formation for a Fritz Shurmer defense.

[CaptainKickass]

You can watch the entirety of SB32 on youtube in 10 minute installments (at least until the NFL's lawyers find it and force them to take it down). I haven't seen any uses of a 3-4 formation; it's always Reggie, Santana Dotson, Gilbert and Gabe Wilkins/Darius Holland. It's certainly possible that Fritz went to the 3-4 on occasion and I just missed it (Reggie and Gilbert were getting exhausted by the Bronco OL and Wilkins got hurt). But the 3-4 would definitely have been an exotic formation for a Fritz Shurmer defense.

Specifically - the last drive for a TD that Denver scored in the 4th quarter under 2 min. The controversial "holmgren let 'em score" so they'd have like a minute to try to tie the game. they had a 3-4 fron for 2 consecutive downs if memory serves me.

[MadScientist]

Fritz used everything from a 2-5 to a 5-2 at various points. We may have been a base 4-3 team, but he changed stuff up a lot and was not afraid to run any formation that his guys could execute.

Case in point, the divisional playoff game at San Francisco in Jan '96. Steve Young was seeing ghosts by the end of the game. Shurmer had used just about every formation known to man..

You mean things like having Gilbert Brown drop back in zone coverage and getting a paw on Jerry Rice? Don't know why Young wasn't expecting something like that?

[hoosier]

You can watch the entirety of SB32 on youtube in 10 minute installments (at least until the NFL's lawyers find it and force them to take it down). I haven't seen any uses of a 3-4 formation; it's always Reggie, Santana Dotson, Gilbert and Gabe Wilkins/Darius Holland. It's certainly possible that Fritz went to the 3-4 on occasion and I just missed it (Reggie and Gilbert were getting exhausted by the Bronco OL and Wilkins got hurt). But the 3-4 would definitely have been an exotic formation for a Fritz Shurmer defense.

Specifically - the last drive for a TD that Denver scored in the 4th quarter under 2 min. The controversial "holmgren let 'em score" so they'd have like a minute to try to tie the game. they had a 3-4 fron for 2 consecutive downs if memory serves me.

Yeah, you're right, at least on the play before Denver scores, a little hard to tell on the goalline play. My god, that drive has to be the low point for all Green Bay defenses in the last few decades. They just got absolutely manhandled by a smaller Denver line. And the low point for Green Bay coaches, too, when Holmey forgets how many time outs he has left. How does he "forget" when it's posted on a scoreboard right in front of his nose?

[KYPack]

But what Kickass is saying is that Shurmer occasionally went back to the 3-4.

My memory of that era is hazy, but I seem to recall Gilbert Brown lined up on the center's nose once in a while--which would make it either a 3-4 or some kind of 5 man line or some kind of an off set 4-3.

Under Fritz, if we lined up in a conventional 3-4, it wasn't more than a handful of times.

Waldo's got it, Fritz would line us up in a wide variety of looks. Fritz loved his 2-5, also called the Eagle. He also had a Big Nickel with DB's deployed so they could cover, blitz, and play the run out of the same formation.

Gilbert on the nose?
Sure, but not bc we were in a 3-4. He would play all kinds of fronts and use Gilbert in a 0 technique in all of 'em. He really did drop Gilbert into cover when he ran some of his zone blitzes. I can almost gaurantee Capers and LeBeau watched a lot of tape on Fritzes schemes when they were putting their own form of the zone blitz together.

All DC's practically genuflect when they talk about Fritz and how he ran his defenses. The guy was a true innovator and inventer of a lot of stuff that is used to this day.

[Packnut]

Fritz

Fritz was the classic "mad scienist". Never will be another mind like his. He is missed...............

[Joemailman]

Fritz used everything from a 2-5 to a 5-2 at various points. We may have been a base 4-3 team, but he changed stuff up a lot and was not afraid to run any formation that his guys could execute.

A DC who adjusts his defensive alignments to fit the talent available, instead of the other way around? Crazy. Sure glad our guy last year didn't try anything nuts like that. Hope Capers doesn't have any whacked out ideas like that.

[red]

i guess i don't know what you guys are talking about

i have no memories of a super bowl loss in the 90's

in fact, i wish they would get this whole labor dispute fixed so we can defend our title. 13 years is too long to go without pro football