Too late for a switch to the 3-4?

[KYPack]

I don't really think we are too late, but the thought has entered my mind. I wish we had gone to an experienced DCoordinator when MM took over. Sanders always struck my as a bland, vanilla kind of guy. Not only that, he'd never been a coordinator before.

Lot's of teams are making the 3-4 switch this year. Lot's of the talent we are chasing will be in great demand. I think we need an NT, for depth if anything, more than hybrids. (Is it hybrid or hybred?)

Here's an excerpt from the NFL web site about the gold rush for 3-4 players,

Quote on

Hybrids, who are best described as players who possess the pass-rush skills of a defensive end and the cover ability of an outside linebacker, have grown in popularity in recent years because more teams are using a 3-4 base defense. The Pittsburgh Steelers, New England Patriots and Baltimore Ravens have been 3-4 disciples for years, and their implementation of the scheme allowed them to convert undersized college defensive ends into outside linebackers with tremendous success. Pro Bowlers Willie McGinest, Mike Vrabel and Terrell Suggs are a few of the players who benefitted from playing as a hybrid-type defender in the NFL.

With 11 teams using some form of a 3-4 base defense, the need for hybrid defensive end/outside linebackers has resulted in more players being placed in this special category.

Quote off.

I'd feel a lot better if we had been stockpiling guys for a few seasons, instead of drafting 4-3 guys.

Well, we gotta do what we gotta do.

[pbmax]

Yes, the drafting advantage that Pittsburgh has had for the last 20 years is gone by now. I am less enthused about the draft possibilities as I am that we have a proven coach. I don't expect a top 10 defense, but I expect something other than the roller rink that we had last season.

BTW, is the body type for an OLB for this system that dramatically different than for a 4-3 RDE?

[Lurker64]

I think that due to the general lack of prototype 4-3 defensive ends in the draft (and our inability to get one) we kind of have been stocking up on these guys for the last few years.

For example, last year we drafted Jeremy Thompson a smallish athletic DE (6'4" 260, good athleticism) from Wake, who had the following blurb on his scouting report from the NFL: "Might be a decent fit as a linebacker, as he is not the type who will bite on misdirection and gets a good read on the quarterback when dropping back to play in the zone".

Jason Hunter is another 6'4" 250 frame guy who has a lot of speed, and wasn't really cut out to play DE in the Bates System.

Poppinga was actually a DE at BYU when we drafted him and moved him to Sam. His coverage has never been great, but for a 3-4 OLB it's certainly adequate. His run fills are top notch and he has a rare sort of aggressiveness.

So we may already have these guys on the roster that were miscast in the old system and will do better in the new system. Who knows. All I know is that smallish athletic DEs (who have a shot at playing OLB) are a hell of a lot more common than the prototype 4-3 end, and we've been drafting the former and not the latter.

[KYPack]

I'm more concerning with NT's than the backers or 3-4 ends. We probably need to come up with another NT and one back-up 3-4 style DE. I think we will figure out some OLB's out the the talen on the roster, too.

[wist43]

Certainly not too late; however, I'm not convinced we're going to be running a 3-4 most of the time anyway.

I'm not the only one convinced that the majority of defenders currently on the roster are completely miscast in a 3-4; and, beyond that, they were barely average in the 4-3 they were drafted for.

As for the debate over NT or rush LB, they need both equally desperately. Pickett may be able to hold up okay, but he's not getting any younger, and he's the only guy on the roster who really fits a 3-4 NT, Jolly could maybe play there in a pinch, but not at a very high level IMO.

And the cupboard is pretty bare when it comes to true 3-4 OLB's... Kampman, Hunter, Thompson??? Everybody is extrapolating those guys out there, but I don't see any of them as a good fit. Yeah, Capers will line them up there, but that doesn't mean they're going to scare the hell out of the offense on the other side of the ball.

Simply put, the Packers have exactly zero guys in their front seven that scare anybody... what scares me though, is TT and MM's belief that they're fine with their starting lineup the way it is... and, no, I don't believe they're just spouting PR; I think they really believe they're talent level is fine.

[Lurker64]

I'm more concerning with NT's than the backers or 3-4 ends. We probably need to come up with another NT and one back-up 3-4 style DE. I think we will figure out some OLB's out the the talen on the roster, too.

Yeah, we realy have nobody at backup NT. But the thing is that the NT plays about as many snaps a game as the nickelback (sometimes less), as the NT is rarely on the field in obvious passing situations. Harrell (if he can play) is probably good for a couple of dozen snaps a game at NT if you needed him to, or you wanted to give Pickett a breather. But we do need a backup/developmental guy, and thankfully there are a few in the draft that grade out to around a third round pick (like Dorrell Scott of Clemson).

Usually, the depth chart for the DL on a 3-4 team features:
4 DEs
2 NTs
1 guy who can play both DE and NT.

Pickett is the starting NT (no matter who we draft), Jolly and Jenkins are two of the DEs, Harrell is the guy who can play both DE and NT, I don't personally think much of Montgomery but maybe he'll make the team, and I think that Alfred Malone is an interesting prospect at DE. So by my reckoning we need to pick up an NFL ready backup-NT and an NFL ready DE, either a starter or a backup (Jenkins will probably be fine, but Jolly might not be much more than serviceable). I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Thompson trade down at #9 and grab whichever of Tyson Jackson, Evander Hood, and Jarron Gilbert is still available.

[rbaloha1]

The 4-3 scheme run by Jim Bates was very successful. MM made every effort to retain Bates but was unsuccessful.

The Sanders hire was a good hire since the staff and highly successful scheme remained in tack. Sanders had difficulty devising proper blitz schemes to counteract the poor pass rush.

The roster was setup for a 4-3 scheme. We are not changing light bulbs here -- whether the current roster can easily make the transition remains to be seen.

Thank goodness for an d-coordinator with an excellent track record and a draft filled with players with the ability to play the scheme. Without a doubt TT and staff find the correct players.

[Partial]

Yes, the drafting advantage that Pittsburgh has had for the last 20 years is gone by now. I am less enthused about the draft possibilities as I am that we have a proven coach. I don't expect a top 10 defense, but I expect something other than the roller rink that we had last season.

How many teams are running 3-4 now? To my count it's 13, but it is possible that is incorrect.

Man oh man, I remember the days when there were like 5-7 teams running it a few years back.

I do think this impacts the ability to find the rare talents of a Merriman or something like that, but I still think it is easier to fortify the DL.

I think Capers is going to make a world of difference. I suspect by week 8 our defense is significantly better than it was last year by week 8.

[Lurker64]

How many teams are running 3-4 now? To my count it's 13, but it is possible that is incorrect..

By my count:
New England
Cleveland
New York Jets
Miami
Dallas
San Diego
Green Bay
San Francisco
Baltimore
Denver
(Nobody's really sure about the Chiefs)

Am I missing anybody? Going by division, 3/4 of the AFCE runs it, Buffalo running a 4-3. 3/4 of the AFCN runs it, the Bengals running a 4-3. 0/4 of the AFCS runs it. 2/4 of the AFCW runs it with the Broncos switching this year (nobody's sure about the Chiefs.) Only Dallas runs it in the NFCE. Only Green Bay runs it in the NFCN. Nobody runs it in the NFCS. San Francisco runs it in the NFCW, but nobody else does.

So that's 3+ 3+ 0+2+1+1+1=11, with the Chiefs being a mystery.

[pbmax]

I agree with wist, I don't see the cause for optimism yet in our front seven. You could have Jenkins healthy, but that is not a safe bet, Jolly could trend toward his upside more and then you are looking at Hunter and Thompson to step up. Everyone else seems established. Maybe you get a boost from Hawk playing in tighter spaces. Same as last year, the biggest help could be Harrell and his balky back.

But on the Bates blurb, remember he took Slowik's catastrophe and made it palatable. Slowik's D was 23rd in Pts and Bates was 19th. Bates had less support from his offense than Slowik did and he (Bates) gave up far fewer big plays. But he wasn't yet highly successful yielding that many points.

And 11 is the number I have read for 3-4 teams. But inside that number, the hybrids guys (Parcells, Belicheck) are not the same as the Steelers and Chargers.