Harrell: Still Not Impressive

[Bossman641]

And Packnut, I don't mean to pick on you but a quick review of your post history reveals that you once suggested

1.) TT intentionally put together a shitty team to get Favre to retire
2.) Suggested getting Brady Quinn because he was much more of a sure thing than Rodgers
3.) Regarding AP,

Yep, drafting a RB in the 1st round is a high percentage pick. There are gonna be a few real good ones available. I just don't see Peterson being one of them. His production has fallen off.

and that AP had bust written all over him

4.) Claimed Javon Walker was better Moss
5.) Were a big fan of Meachem who has also been a disappointment

[Fritz]

Tick, tick, tick.

Oh, P-a-a-a-cknut!? Are you still out there? Are you going to respond to Patler...or any of the others who've used actual factual information?

Tick, tick, tick, tick...

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I don't know if we should have ever expected much out of Harrell due to his track record in college. This was also a very uncharacteristic pick by TT. Harrell had not produced at the collegiate level and also was injury prone. If you look at Jennings and Rodgers, etc. they were very good in college and had already produced for multiple seasons.

Dude, u better get your facts straight before posting.

• 2005 All-SEC Associated Press (2nd)
• SEC Defensive Lineman of the Week (Sept. 5, 2005)
• 2005 SBC Cotton Bowl Classic Defensive MVP

Junior year: 11 games/11 starts
Soph year: 13 games/11 starts
Frosh year: 8 games/0 zero starts

Rodgers..hmm, started in his fifth game after transferring from JUCO, next year played all the games as a junior. Entered the draft.

[woodbuck27]

I live in suburban Minneapolis and had an endzone seat at the 2008 Packer/Viking game at the Dome.

Harrell was only in the game for 8 - 10 plays but I watched him intently when he was. As the Vikings were coming toward my endzone, I had a pretty good look at Harrell from behind the defense.

On one play he was double teamed on a run, anchored and was not appreciably driven back. The play was stacked up at the line for little or no gain.

The next play was an off tackle play to the offensive right. He engaged, moved laterally to his left and was in on the tackle. This play too resulted in little or no gain.

It was a very small sample, but on those 2 plays, he looked like a legitimate professional football player.

Nice post. Thanks.

[woodbuck27]

Re: Harrell

The DIFFERENCE between Thompson's Harrell pick and Sherman's dumb picks is very significant. At least Sheman's picks did not have INJURY written all over them. Most of his picks also played 4 yrs of college ball and had established themselves.

Look, I don't give a rat's ass how much anyone loves Teddy, but the TRUTH is just as great as the Jennings pick was, the Harrell pick was just as BRUTAL! The guy is still in-mature and has a very poor work ethic. When you are an NFL player, you stay in shape 12 months out of 12 months. You don't take time out and eat everything in sight, and no one is gonna tell me he did'nt have the same problems in college. He just did'nt start to eat like a pig when he became a pro. Very poor job of research by Teddy and the scouting dept.

It's time THIS debate is put to rest once and for all. Harrell was a bad pick PERIOD!

We don't have access to the medical reports the Packers looked at, so while it's easy to play armchair QB and say that Harrell has always been injury prone and that TT made a bad gamble, his overall drafting philosophy seems to be well conceived and successful, so I doubt very much that he just had a brain fart that day and made a dumb pick. It was a gamble, yes, and when big gambles fail they look bad.

As I see it, your comparison of Jennings and Harrell picks leaves out an important point. Maybe two points, if you count the fact that Harrell is only going into his third year and could still turn it around. It certainly looks unlikely at this point, but stranger things have happened. The point you are ignoring, though, is that the failure rate for 1st round picks is actually quite high regardless of who's doing the drafting. The draft is a crapshoot. Look at the history of GB 1st round picks since 1987. I count 9 in 21 drafts who either failed miserably or never lived up to their billing. The bust rate was highest from 1987-92, and lowest from 1993-98. But if Harrell proves to be a bust, it wouldn't be at all unusual in the bigger historical picture.

2007 16 Justin Harrell DT Tennessee
2006 5 A.J. Hawk OLB Ohio State
2005 24 Aaron Rodgers QB California
2004 25 Ahmad Carroll CB Arkansas
2003 29 Nick Barnett MLB Oregon State
2002 20 Javon Walker WR Florida State
2001 10 Jamal Reynolds DE Florida State
2000 14 Bubba Franks TE Miami (Fla.)
1999 25 Antuan Edwards CB Clemson
1998 19 Vonnie Holliday DE North Carolina
1997 30 Ross Verba T Iowa
1996 27 John Michels T USC
1995 32 Craig Newsome CB Arizona State
1994 16 Aaron Taylor G Notre Dame
1993 15 Wayne Simmons OLB Clemson
1993 29 George Teague FS Alabama
1992 5 Terrell Buckley CB Florida State
1991 19 Vinnie Clark CB Ohio State
1990 18 Tony Bennett LB Mississippi
1990 19 Darrell Thompson RB Minnesota
1989 2 Tony Mandarich OT Michigan State
1988 7 Sterling Sharpe WR South Carolina
1987 4 Brent Fullwood RB Auburn

If you read what I posted, you'll see I'm not debating the "all GM's make bad 1st rd picks". I also fail to understand the "not having access to the medical reports". It was WELL PUBLICISED that Harrell had an injury history dating back to freakin HS BEFORE the draft. Also, with all the detailed investigative work teams put into high draft picks, you can't tell me they did'nt know Justin can't say no to his mama's cooking. Now I know Gilbert never met a cheeseburger he did'nt like, but the gravedigger was not the 16th pick in the draft.

My criticism of this pick CANNOT be construed as "armchair QBing". I was clearly on record here as touting Bowe and Nelson BEFORE the draft. Both of them have been much more productive then Harrell. Nelson was all-rookie and what Bowe has done considering he has'nt had anything better than a HS QB throwing to him is damned impressive.

Last but not least, holding out hope that he turns it around is nothing but a fairy tale. The fact that he is STILL overweight and STILL laughs about his eating habits and not being able to stay disiplined, does not give anyone any logical reason to believe he's gonna change anytime soon.

Solid analysis. I believe that Harrell had to be judged (or as likely), is and will be a bust. Packer nation wasn't exactly thrilled over that pick. Why was that?

If I was Ted Thompson. I'd be watching Harrell very carefully in TC and if he didn't produce I'd demonstrate some integrity as a GM and cut him pronto.

[Lurker64]

Re: Harrell

Solid analysis. I believe that Harrell had to be judged (or as likely), is and will be a bust. Packer nation wasn't exactly thrilled over that pick. Why was that?

If I recall correctly, the consensus in "packer nation" going into that draft was that the number one draft priority was "to get a weapon for Favre", so most people wanted someone like Marshawn Lynch to play RB (this was right after Ahman Green went to the Texans), or draft a WR like Bowe or Meachem (odd, in retrospect, considering we had both Driver and Jennings on the roster at that point.) I think a lot of the antipathy over the pick was that people viewed the DLine as one of the strengths of the team and the offense as one of the weaknesses.

If I was Ted Thompson. I'd be watching Harrell very carefully in TC and if he didn't produce I'd demonstrate some integrity as a GM and cut him pronto.

Ultimately, I think Harrell ought to be judged in TC based on what he can do for us going forward, not on where he was drafted or what he's done (or not done) so far. If, rather than being dominant as we hoped when the drafted him, he's just a solid rotation player who's good for ~20 snaps a game, we can certainly justify a roster spot for that. I don't think he should get cut just because he fails to live up to some nebulous standard for "first round picks".

[Packnut]

And Packnut, I don't mean to pick on you but a quick review of your post history reveals that you once suggested

1.) TT intentionally put together a shitty team to get Favre to retire
2.) Suggested getting Brady Quinn because he was much more of a sure thing than Rodgers
3.) Regarding AP,

Yep, drafting a RB in the 1st round is a high percentage pick. There are gonna be a few real good ones available. I just don't see Peterson being one of them. His production has fallen off.

and that AP had bust written all over him

4.) Claimed Javon Walker was better Moss
5.) Were a big fan of Meachem who has also been a disappointment

1-Many believe TT wanted Favre gone and as events played out, it does appear logical to make that assumption.

2-Quinn won more money for me than Rodgers did in college so I was more partial to him. Let's not also forget that SEVERAL of those who love Rodgers now, did in fact rip him a new one after his first 2 pre-seasons and I was one of those defending him. It's convenient how some pull past posts to support their opinion without printing all of them. If you want to pull past posts, why not pull all of mine defending Favre after 06? I said he WAS'NT washed up and just needed a little talent. 07 proved me right

3- Regarding AP. He had an injury history in college. I don't believe in taking that kind of risk with that high of a pick. He has also been injured in the pro's. We'll have to wait and see how it all unfolds before declaring a winner on that one.

4-The Walker one is a cheap shot. Anyone with an ounce of compassion knows that having your best buddy die in your arms is something that NO ONE ever get's over. IT killed Walker's will to compete. He realized football means nothing in the grand scheme of life and death. Also, if you look at how he played in Denver's first season before the tragedy, he did win a few games for them. As for Moss, you conviently left out that I defended him against all who said he was washed up and nothing but trouble BEFORE his outstanding season with the Pats.

5-IF you go back and read EVERY freakin post I made, I touted BOWE as the WR to take. Meachem was my second WR choice. So my plan B was a bust, but you once again left out how my plan A was much better at this point than Teddy's plan A (Harrell).

Look, I'm not trying to start anything with you, but I could spend weeks going back through certain people's posts and pick and choose the ones that validate my opinions but what's the use? I know I've been right a helluva lot more than I've been wrong.

I was the first to point out all the mistakes TT was making and I was pretty much alone here on that one. History bears out that I was correct. I criticised him un-mercifully about the offensive line and this is what year of the TT regime and our O-line is still one of the biggest quesion marks going into this season just to name one specific instance.

I believed Favre was good enough to win another SB with some help BEFORE the 07 season and what happened? Don't tell me had TT signed Moss that it would'nt have made the difference. I argued that the window was small and Teddy should have done more. What happened my friend? 6-and FREAKIN 10! The window slammed shut! And contrary to the kool-aid drinkers, it ain't gonna happen this year or next.

[cheesner]

And Packnut, I don't mean to pick on you but a quick review of your post history reveals that you once suggested

1.) TT intentionally put together a shitty team to get Favre to retire
2.) Suggested getting Brady Quinn because he was much more of a sure thing than Rodgers
3.) Regarding AP,

Yep, drafting a RB in the 1st round is a high percentage pick. There are gonna be a few real good ones available. I just don't see Peterson being one of them. His production has fallen off.

and that AP had bust written all over him

4.) Claimed Javon Walker was better Moss
5.) Were a big fan of Meachem who has also been a disappointment

1-Many believe TT wanted Favre gone and as events played out, it does appear logical to make that assumption.

That is a ridiculous statement any way you slice it. TT welcomed back Favre after his 2nd retirement comeback only the have BF back out. Even after the third 'unretirement' when Favre came to the Packers Training camp TT allowed him to come. He met with MM for several hours and MM decided that Brett couldn't get over the past and therefore could not be a part of the team. TT welcomed him back. MM did not.

2-Quinn won more money for me than Rodgers did in college so I was more partial to him. Let's not also forget that SEVERAL of those who love Rodgers now, did in fact rip him a new one after his first 2 pre-seasons and I was one of those defending him. It's convenient how some pull past posts to support their opinion without printing all of them. If you want to pull past posts, why not pull all of mine defending Favre after 06? I said he WAS'NT washed up and just needed a little talent. 07 proved me right

Boss was pointing out how you don't stand up when you are in error. Is error okay if others are wrong also?

3- Regarding AP. He had an injury history in college. I don't believe in taking that kind of risk with that high of a pick. He has also been injured in the pro's. We'll have to wait and see how it all unfolds before declaring a winner on that one.

Risk/reward is a balancing act every GM must play with. Trading a #1 for a drunk 3rd string QB who doctors said with only play 4 years due to a potential degenerative bone issue was a HUGE risk. Favre turned out to be worth it. Do you criticize Wolf for trading for Favre? Or did you just wait to find out if the risk pans out before judging? Personally, I thought it was a horrible move at the time. Now, of course, admit that Wolf made a great trade.

4-The Walker one is a cheap shot. Anyone with an ounce of compassion knows that having your best buddy die in your arms is something that NO ONE ever get's over. IT killed Walker's will to compete. He realized football means nothing in the grand scheme of life and death. Also, if you look at how he played in Denver's first season before the tragedy, he did win a few games for them. As for Moss, you conviently left out that I defended him against all who said he was washed up and nothing but trouble BEFORE his outstanding season with the Pats.

Walker was a bit of a head case. Others deal with tragedy and still succeed. As Harrell was a risk for injury because of his history, Walker was a risk because of his attitudes. His hold out and demand to be traded were before he saw his buddy die.

5-IF you go back and read EVERY freakin post I made, I touted BOWE as the WR to take. Meachem was my second WR choice. So my plan B was a bust, but you once again left out how my plan A was much better at this point than Teddy's plan A (Harrell).

Look, I'm not trying to start anything with you, but I could spend weeks going back through certain people's posts and pick and choose the ones that validate my opinions but what's the use? I know I've been right a helluva lot more than I've been wrong.

I was the first to point out all the mistakes TT was making and I was pretty much alone here on that one. History bears out that I was correct. I criticised him un-mercifully about the offensive line and this is what year of the TT regime and our O-line is still one of the biggest quesion marks going into this season just to name one specific instance.

I believed Favre was good enough to win another SB with some help BEFORE the 07 season and what happened? Don't tell me had TT signed Moss that it would'nt have made the difference. I argued that the window was small and Teddy should have done more. What happened my friend? 6-and FREAKIN 10! The window slammed shut! And contrary to the kool-aid drinkers, it ain't gonna happen this year or next.

TT is not perfect and even the most ardent support does not expect him to make every decision perfectly. If you criticize every single thing that TT does, then yes, some of your criticisms will be valid. But the majority of them are way off base.

[cheesner]

oops

[LEWCWA]

It certainly seems to me that Mr. Harrell will soon be cut. I hope I'm wrong.

PACKERS!

I hope your right. At least that means they found someone better hopefully!

[Tyrone Bigguns]

So, let's make sure Ty understands PackNut.

Having his best friend die in his arms killed his will to compete, but it didn't kill is will to sign a 6 year 55 million dollar contract with the Raiders.

[LEWCWA]

Re: Harrell

If you read what I posted, you'll see I'm not debating the "all GM's make bad 1st rd picks". I also fail to understand the "not having access to the medical reports". It was WELL PUBLICISED that Harrell had an injury history dating back to freakin HS BEFORE the draft. Also, with all the detailed investigative work teams put into high draft picks, you can't tell me they did'nt know Justin can't say no to his mama's cooking. Now I know Gilbert never met a cheeseburger he did'nt like, but the gravedigger was not the 16th pick in the draft.

My criticism of this pick CANNOT be construed as "armchair QBing". I was clearly on record here as touting Bowe and Nelson BEFORE the draft. Both of them have been much more productive then Harrell. Nelson was all-rookie and what Bowe has done considering he has'nt had anything better than a HS QB throwing to him is damned impressive.

Last but not least, holding out hope that he turns it around is nothing but a fairy tale. The fact that he is STILL overweight and STILL laughs about his eating habits and not being able to stay disiplined, does not give anyone any logical reason to believe he's gonna change anytime soon.

Before his biceps injury he was considered by many to be a top 10 pick and by some a top 5 pick. Was picking him at 16 a risk? Sure it was. Was it anywhere near as stupid as you claim? IMHO, no. The whole idea of taking a risk is that it may turn out bad. Injuries are funny, some guys have a rash of them and then never have another for the rest of their carreers. Others are completely healthy for years and then, suddenly, can't stay on the field.

A. Peterson was another player that dropped because of well-documented injury concerns. Was the Vikings pick of him a risk? Yep. If he had reinjured his shoulder there would be posters bitching about picking him using the same logic as you have used for Harrell.

I could probalby list another dozen examples of similiar risks that worked out, but the idea is the same. Picking Harrell was a risk that hasn't worked out. No more, no less.

No there were a small minority touting him as a top 10 pick. The OVERWHELMING majority were not. Don't go back and try to change history in order to support an opinion.

More reading/hearing what you want. With his injury some were touting him, as a possibility to go higher. Had the injury not occurred he very well would have been a top ten guy....I would take that risk too..Alot of blah, blah blah coming from your corner....I bet on football so I am a scout, give me a damn break.

[The Leaper]

I didn't hate the Harrell pick for Harrell...

I wanted fucking Reggie Nelson!!!!

[Bretsky]

I didn't hate the Harrell pick for Harrell...

I wanted fucking Reggie Nelson!!!!

2 GUYS that get ETERNAL KUDOS FROM ME

1. Partial for tabbing All Day Peterson as the one player clearly worth moving up for and tabbing him as a future star

2. Leaper for pegging Reggie Nelson as the guy we should draft in round one before the draft

[Fritz]

I didn't hate the Harrell pick for Harrell...

I wanted fucking Reggie Nelson!!!!

2 GUYS that get ETERNAL KUDOS FROM ME

1. Partial for tabbing All Day Peterson as the one player clearly worth moving up for and tabbing him as a future star

2. Leaper for pegging Reggie Nelson as the guy we should draft in round one before the draft

3. Fritz for hyping Robert Meachem!