Hawk a bust?

[wist43]

I wanted Mario, or Davis, or trade down... Mario has proven to be a stud; Davis is being wasted in the mess that is the 49ers.

Many wanted Mario and they all knew he'd be gone by pick 3 at the latest.

I remember some wanting Davis. He has conributed to the mess in SFC; wasn't he sent to the showers early during practice and told not to come bak until his attitude changed by Mike S., the new HC?

I do recall his huge ego and some of the things he's jibbered since being in the NFL. I'm glad we didn't pick him.

I agree about Davis... he did come with some red flags; and he did run his mouth to the point of making him almost undraftable for the Packers.

We, as armchair QB's and GM's can't look these kids in the eye... so on matters of character, we can't make the call... unless the guy is complete knob.

Strictly from a physical talent standpoint... Davis would have been much more worthy of the 5th pick over Hawk though. And I can say that I did watch a few SF games and that he was rarely if ever targetted in the passing game - why draft a guy at TE with the 6th pick, and then essentially turn him into a glorified offensive linemen??? Yes, he bitched his way into the doghouse, but to a certain extent, I can't blame him.

As for Williams... speculation was he'd be gone by 5, but you have to remember that the consensus #1 pick was Reggie Bush. My contention was that if TT thought he was good enough, go ahead and trade up... franchise DE's are rare, and they are worth giving up picks for.

Of course going to a 3-4... we now need LB's and DE's are chaff - who knows, had TT finagled a trade to land Williams, we most likely wouldn't be changing schemes today.

[ND72]

He is what I thought he would be - a JAG.

Will probably start every game for the next 7 years, and make a bunch of tackles. Just don't expect him to make any plays.

I fully expect him to make plays. I've always looked at Hawk as a playmaker who was bound to a scheme that did not utilize his strengths. Hawk is more than a block eater/road clearer, and I've always thought this going way back to OSU. I think as soon as Hawk is actually put in a position to make plays, and is specifically asked to make plays, we'll see the playmaker I envisioned Hawk to be.

I'll agree that the scheme held him back... but that doesn't account for the fact that he was involved in virtually no turnovers or game changing plays.

How many forced fumbles??? How many Int's??? How many recovered fumbles??? How many sacks??? Average in coverage, average in taking on and shedding, slow to diagnose, etc...

Even in a scheme as pathetic as what the Packers were running, a half way decent LB should at least be involved in a few plays.

Maybe Hawk will be more effective in a 3-4... he better be. I expect he should have a handful of sacks - but he's not a pass rusher; I expect he may be involved in a few more turnover plays - but, he's not really above average at anything.

Again, he's a JAG. LB'ers like Hawk are a dime/dozen... he's not a bust, but he's certainly not worth the 5th pick.

I wanted Mario, or Davis, or trade down... Mario has proven to be a stud; Davis is being wasted in the mess that is the 49ers.

I know Mario has made strides, but I wouldn't refer to him as a stud yet. Davis has pretty much never been good, so I wouldn't blame that on the 49er mess, he's probably a bigger mess.

As far as how many plays has Hawk made....how many "big plays" did any of our LB's make in Bob's scheme? You could have put any dummy out there at Poop's position and gotten the same out of him. Barnett SHOULD have made more plays in that defense, because the MLB is the funnel that was that defense. Hawk was never used the way he should. Having him walk to the line to show his blitz was stupid, how do you expect a linebacker to get past a OL guy without a running start, you need to use their speed on blitz's, not just run right into a guard. Our defense was stupid, and didn't use any of our strengths except press man, and Kampmann, which even he wasn't producing because NOBODY else was. When Jenkins got hurt, it really hurt us, especially Hawk who typically was behind him.

[ND72]

[quote="wist43"]

I wanted Mario, or Davis, or trade down... Mario has proven to be a stud; Davis is being wasted in the mess that is the 49ers.

Of course going to a 3-4... we now need LB's and DE's are chaff - who knows, had TT finagled a trade to land Williams, we most likely wouldn't be changing schemes today.

and our defense would still be sucking.

[Kiwon]

If Hawk is a bust then we need 10 more busts just like him on defense.

[Waldo]

Here's the deal with Hawk IMO.

The guy is a robot.

He's a little bigger, can run a little faster, is a little stronger, a little more agile, and can jump a little higher than just about every normal linebacker. But he isn't what I would consider freakish at anything aside from perhaps agility. Overall though his Size:Strength:Speed combo isn't that much better than Barnett's. Pound for pound Barnett is stronger and Hawk is faster. At their current weights though they are about equal in speed an strength.

Hawk loves the game and can be counted on to always give it his all.

Hawk is assignment sure and doesn't really make big mistakes. I think that he obsesses on coaching points trying to play perfectly.

Hawk tackles very well.

Hawk covers well.

He is an OK blitzer. I think that he'd be better if he was not #5 overall (like it or not, teams are aware of him in planning and at the line), and put in a better position to succeed at it.

And that's it.

Hawk doesn't pump up the crowd.

Hawk doesn't talk trash to the opponents.

Hawk doesn't have a signature thing like Barnett's chop.

He doesn't play scary.

he doesn't play mean.

He doesn't appear to play with passion.

He is a robot.

It is the fact that IMO Barnett has the most colorful personality on the team, on and off the field, that makes him my favorite player. He plays the part of the BA linebacker that talks smack and backs it up, that is the ringleader of whatever the defense is doing. And unlike a lot of fans, I love it when he whips out his sword.

I think Hawk has it in him to be much better. If he ever gets past the whole robot act and starts to play like a mean, ornery linebacker, he will make his presence felt. Hawk and Jeremy Thompson both could benefit from a month at a supermax prison or some time in a street gang or motorcycle gang.

[Fritz]

Here's the deal with Hawk IMO.

The guy is a robot.

He's a little bigger, can run a little faster, is a little stronger, a little more agile, and can jump a little higher than just about every normal linebacker. But he isn't what I would consider freakish at anything aside from perhaps agility. Overall though his Size:Strength:Speed combo isn't that much better than Barnett's. Pound for pound Barnett is stronger and Hawk is faster. At their current weights though they are about equal in speed an strength.

Hawk loves the game and can be counted on to always give it his all.

Hawk is assignment sure and doesn't really make big mistakes. I think that he obsesses on coaching points trying to play perfectly.

Hawk tackles very well.

Hawk covers well.

He is an OK blitzer. I think that he'd be better if he was not #5 overall (like it or not, teams are aware of him in planning and at the line), and put in a better position to succeed at it.

And that's it.

Hawk doesn't pump up the crowd.

Hawk doesn't talk trash to the opponents.

Hawk doesn't have a signature thing like Barnett's chop.

He doesn't play scary.

he doesn't play mean.

He doesn't appear to play with passion.

He is a robot.

It is the fact that IMO Barnett has the most colorful personality on the team, on and off the field, that makes him my favorite player. He plays the part of the BA linebacker that talks smack and backs it up, that is the ringleader of whatever the defense is doing. And unlike a lot of fans, I love it when he whips out his sword.

I think Hawk has it in him to be much better. If he ever gets past the whole robot act and starts to play like a mean, ornery linebacker, he will make his presence felt. Hawk and Jeremy Thompson both could benefit from a month at a supermax prison or some time in a street gang or motorcycle gang.

Is your wife aware of this, Waldo?

[ThunderDan]

Here's the deal with Hawk IMO.

The guy is a robot.

He's a little bigger, can run a little faster, is a little stronger, a little more agile, and can jump a little higher than just about every normal linebacker. But he isn't what I would consider freakish at anything aside from perhaps agility. Overall though his Size:Strength:Speed combo isn't that much better than Barnett's. Pound for pound Barnett is stronger and Hawk is faster. At their current weights though they are about equal in speed an strength.

Hawk loves the game and can be counted on to always give it his all.

Hawk is assignment sure and doesn't really make big mistakes. I think that he obsesses on coaching points trying to play perfectly.

Hawk tackles very well.

Hawk covers well.

He is an OK blitzer. I think that he'd be better if he was not #5 overall (like it or not, teams are aware of him in planning and at the line), and put in a better position to succeed at it.

And that's it.

Hawk doesn't pump up the crowd.

Hawk doesn't talk trash to the opponents.

Hawk doesn't have a signature thing like Barnett's chop.

He doesn't play scary.

he doesn't play mean.

He doesn't appear to play with passion.

He is a robot.

It is the fact that IMO Barnett has the most colorful personality on the team, on and off the field, that makes him my favorite player. He plays the part of the BA linebacker that talks smack and backs it up, that is the ringleader of whatever the defense is doing. And unlike a lot of fans, I love it when he whips out his sword.

I think Hawk has it in him to be much better. If he ever gets past the whole robot act and starts to play like a mean, ornery linebacker, he will make his presence felt. Hawk and Jeremy Thompson both could benefit from a month at a supermax prison or some time in a street gang or motorcycle gang.

The best part about Barnett's samuri chop is when he does it on 2nd down and then the other team gets a first on third down and he looks like a big turd. Or when the Pack is down 14 points and he does it.

I've never liked Barnett but I give him props after the team fell even more apart after his injury in 2008.

[Zool]

I love the signature Barnett chase and drag technique.

[Waldo]

I love the signature Barnett chase and drag technique.

Works a lot better than the signature Chillar - oops, he went that way. These damn lineman keep getting in my way.

Or the signature Poppinga - dammit, well I almost tackled him that time.

Or the signature Bishop - shit, he just cut back again, we'll there he goes, or the oh no, he is running toward the sidelines, I'll never get there in time.

[Zool]

I love the signature Barnett chase and drag technique.

Works a lot better than the signature Chillar - oops, he went that way. These damn lineman keep getting in my way.

Or the signature Poppinga - dammit, well I almost tackled him that time.

Or the signature Bishop - shit, he just cut back again, we'll there he goes, or the oh no, he is running toward the sidelines, I'll never get there in time.

So Hawk has better straight line speed than Barnett? Or is that an out of pads measurement? Always seems like Barnett is running plays down from behind and thats whats allowed him to be successful.

Think Barnett will have a dropoff in tackle stats now that the D isnt designed to funnel runners to him?

[sharpe1027]

Hawk loves the game and can be counted on to always give it his all.
...
He doesn't appear to play with passion.

Waldo,

I think I get what you are saying, but these two statements seemed at odds to me.

What exactly is the difference here? It seems you are splitting hairs. I mean, if the kid is out there playing 100%, is he lacking passion because he doesn't yell and wave his hands in the air?

Now from a entertainment stand point, I get it. I also get the possible advantage of pumping up the crowd and/or your teammates, but I know I'd be pissed if someone said I didn't play with passion just because I wasn't the loudest person on the field.

I think you may lack passion in your posts because you aren't constantly dropping F-bombs and using CAPS...pump it up a notch!!

[Waldo]

Hawk loves the game and can be counted on to always give it his all.
...
He doesn't appear to play with passion.

Waldo,

I think I get what you are saying, but these two statements seemed at odds to me.

What exactly is the difference here? It seems you are splitting hairs. I mean, if the kid is out there playing 100%, is he lacking passion because he doesn't yell and wave his hands in the air?

Now from a entertainment stand point, I get it. I also get the possible advantage of pumping up the crowd and/or your teammates, but I know I'd be pissed if someone said I didn't play with passion just because I wasn't the loudest person on the field.

I think you may lack passion in your posts because you aren't constantly dropping F-bombs and using CAPS...pump it up a notch!!

One example that seems fitting is Kampman vs. Allen. Aaron is faster, stronger, smarter, and "tries harder". But he's not a mean ol' asshole that gets in his opponents head like Jared is. And nobody but a few Packers homers will argue that Kamp is better than Jared.

Has nothing to do with "pumping up" and everything do do with approach. Hawk doesn't seem to want to beat his opponents, he seems to not want to get beaten.

The mental side of the game for AJ is to try hard and do his best. AJ doesn't do the whole mind games thing that the good/great ones do.

What makes Urlacher and Lewis great more than anything else, is the amount of respect and fear that they receive from opposing offenses. Some of that is related to their play, some is related to how they carry themselves, on and off the field.

[sharpe1027]

One example that seems fitting is Kampman vs. Allen. Aaron is faster, stronger, smarter, and "tries harder". But he's not a mean ol' asshole that gets in his opponents head like Jared is. And nobody but a few Packers homers will argue that Kamp is better than Jared.

Has nothing to do with "pumping up" and everything do do with approach. Hawk doesn't seem to want to beat his opponents, he seems to not want to get beaten.

The mental side of the game for AJ is to try hard and do his best. AJ doesn't do the whole mind games thing that the good/great ones do.

What makes Urlacher and Lewis great more than anything else, is the amount of respect and fear that they receive from opposing offenses. Some of that is related to their play, some is related to how they carry themselves, on and off the field.

Gotcha. It sounds like I probably just interpreted passion a bit broader than you intended.

I can see the logic, and it is probably very true.

More to play devil's advocate and to offer a little perspective for your position, those particular type of passionate/asshole guys make more the headlines, for themselves, regardless of whether or not they actually do more to win the game for their team. We all love/hate to see those guys, and the media always loves a story about them.

Dominating your opponent strikes more fear than running your mouth and making a few dirty plays. Players that dominate are naturally categorized as playing with an 'edge' because they just seem a step ahead of their opponents. Players that are not dominating naturally seem to have less of an edge.

At first glance, I bet most people would say Reggie White played with "meanness" than Kampman, but I am not so sure it wasn't just that he played better than Kamp.

So, I am not disagreeing that Hawk could benefit from more of an edge, just more cautioning that it is not necessarily all it is made out to be... Maybe with the new staff we'll get a chance to find out.

[Freak Out]

Hawk and Jeremy Thompson both could benefit from a month at a supermax prison or some time in a street gang or motorcycle gang.

In this day and age you could probably drop the motorcycle gang from that list.

[Fritz]

Maybe Hawk needs to pal around with Ronnie Mexico a little.