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Really sad to hear as Harrell seems to be doing everything possible to get back. I recall reading a week back that Harrell's cap number is small this year, next year is where it really jumps. IR him and make next offseason the make or break.
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Go PACK -
Does anyone really think this guy will ever be healthy enough to contribute on a consistent basis and help this team? I feel bad that he has all of these injuries but this shouldn't surprise anyone given his propensity for injury. He hasn't played a full season of football in how long?"Once the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the Republic.”
– Benjamin FranklinComment
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Waldo,
What is the PUP list Harrell was on either rookie or sophomore year? I know there is a 6 week list to start the season, but perhaps you miss all of camp then as well.
Is Barnett out until week 6 then?Comment
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Yes. To be on the PUP they have to be placed on it when they report. Guys that fail precamp physicals are placed on the PUP. When they pass their physical, they are ineligible for the PUP.Originally posted by Partial
It has to do with injury liability. When the team passes a player via their physical, they become liable for the players salary for the season should injury occur. The only out is an injury settlement, which pays the players for a negotiated number of games and released them form their contract to be a FA, so they can play later in the season elsewhere.
The team is not liable for the player's full season salary when they are placed on the PUP. They only become liable when the player comes off of it.
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There are really two PUP lists, a preseason PUP which is also referred to as Active PUP, and a Reserve PUP for the first six weeks of the season. As Waldo wrote, you can be placed on Active PUP only at the start of camp. Players on preseason or Active PUP count against the roster limits. They can come off it at any time. If you start preseason practicing with the team, even for just the first day, you can not be placed on PUP thereafter.
At the final cutdown, players still on the preseason Active PUP list can be placed on the Reserve PUP list to start the season, but they do not have to be placed on Reserve PUP. Only players on Active PUP can be placed on Reserve PUP. Reserve PUP players are paid, but do not count against the 53 man roster. They can not come off Reserve Pup for the first 6 weeks of the season. After six weeks, they can practice for up to 3 weeks with the team before a decision has to be made to either activate them (and move another player off the 53 man roster) or place them on IR.
As for the team being liable for salary, if the player is placed on Reserve PUP at the start of the season, it is no different than for a player on the 53 man roster. The team is liable for his salary. If the final disposition of the player's status between 6 and 9 weeks into the season is to place him on IR, then all the IR rules apply, including the injury waiver rules and injury settlements, which vary depending on a players years of seniority and some individual contract provisions. There is a slight difference for a Reserve PUP player in his final contract year. If his is still physically unable to perform after six weeks, his contract is tolled.Comment
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If a player is on reserve PUP, at the end if the team fails to activate him or put him on IR (therefore cutting him) they don't have to pay him the rest of the year (I'm pretty sure this is true of vested veterans as well). Likewise if he is cut while on the active PUP, they don't have to pay him. Any player placed on IR in camp is due a full season salary or settlement.Originally posted by Patler
It is a means of managing the roster and risk with a previously injured player.Comment
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Read this on a JSO chat last week:
Q: Rich, LA - Hi Greg, if Justin Harrell Plays sparingly because of injury in the preseason and is ineffective, do you cut him?
A: Greg A. Bedard - No, because there's no point. Re-evaluate after the season and post-draft and free agency. No point in cutting him now. It's going to cost you the same.
The kid's worked hard and I would have loved to see him be able to succeed. Rather reminds me of Terrence Murphy a few seasons back.Comment
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Waldo-Patler smackdown!Comment
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....there are times that Bedard proves that he just doesn't get the game. He needs an editor or adviser half the time to filter his dumb or incorrect statements.Originally posted by MichiganPackerFanRead this on a JSO chat last week:
Q: Rich, LA - Hi Greg, if Justin Harrell Plays sparingly because of injury in the preseason and is ineffective, do you cut him?
A: Greg A. Bedard - No, because there's no point. Re-evaluate after the season and post-draft and free agency. No point in cutting him now. It's going to cost you the same.
The kid's worked hard and I would have loved to see him be able to succeed. Rather reminds me of Terrence Murphy a few seasons back.
If he were cut today, a little over 4M in bonus payments would accelerate to the 2009 cap, and since he passed his physical and would be cut for injury reasons, his 640K salary/RB would still have to be paid. It would cost the team ~4.7M to cut him this year.
Were he placed on IR, 1 year of his bonus amortization and his salary count toward the cap. About 1.7M. Since there is no cap next year, if he is not recovered, he can be cut with no cap effects and the team owing him no money.
In other words, Bedards statement that it costs the same is not true. It is 3M cheaper to keep him than cut him, 3M is a good amount of money useful for extending players, and can be pushed forward by front loading.Comment
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I think you are making this sound more complicated than it really is.Originally posted by Waldo
In preseason he is really no different than any other player. He counts against the roster limit, so there is no advantage there as far as roster management. No player's salary is guaranteed in preseason (save for a few odd ball contracts) so it doesn't matter if he is on Active PUP or not if he is released in preseason. Assuming he wouldn't be practicing anyway (because he is physically unable to) there is no injury risk advantage. If he is put on IR in preseason or the regular season, there is no difference if that occurs from him being active in TC, on Active PUP in TC, on the 53 man regular roster or on Reserve PUP. It makes no difference.
The only thing I am not sure of is the effect on a vested veteran on Reserve PUP who is subsequently released. It might be the same "nonguarantee" for his salary as happens when teams release and resign veterans in the first week to avoid the salary guarantee. I don't think that is the case, I think the effect is the same as being IR'd or released from the active roster, but I'm not certain.
The advantage of placing a player on Active PUP is that it makes him eligible for Reserve PUP.
The advantage of Reserve PUP is that the player does not count against the 53 man roster limit, and you have the opportunity to activate him after 6 weeks. It is almost like a temporary IR. It is a place for a player to rehab while not using a roster spot and still being available to come back and play in the second half of the season.Comment
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What are you talking about? We pretty much agree.Originally posted by Harlan HucklebyComment
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Negotiating a injury settlement - Jack Bechta - National Football Post
"When it's third and ten, you can take the milk drinkers and I'll take the whiskey drinkers every time" Max McGeeComment
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Aren't you mixing cap impact and cash outlays?Originally posted by Waldo....there are times that Bedard proves that he just doesn't get the game. He needs an editor or adviser half the time to filter his dumb or incorrect statements.Originally posted by MichiganPackerFanRead this on a JSO chat last week:
Q: Rich, LA - Hi Greg, if Justin Harrell Plays sparingly because of injury in the preseason and is ineffective, do you cut him?
A: Greg A. Bedard - No, because there's no point. Re-evaluate after the season and post-draft and free agency. No point in cutting him now. It's going to cost you the same.
The kid's worked hard and I would have loved to see him be able to succeed. Rather reminds me of Terrence Murphy a few seasons back.
If he were cut today, a little over 4M in bonus payments would accelerate to the 2009 cap, and since he passed his physical and would be cut for injury reasons, his 640K salary/RB would still have to be paid. It would cost the team ~4.7M to cut him this year.
Were he placed on IR, 1 year of his bonus amortization and his salary count toward the cap. About 1.7M. Since there is no cap next year, if he is not recovered, he can be cut with no cap effects and the team owing him no money.
In other words, Bedards statement that it costs the same is not true. It is 3M cheaper to keep him than cut him, 3M is a good amount of money useful for extending players, and can be pushed forward by front loading.
The cap effect is as you describe. It differs depending on when he is released.
The cash cost to the team is the same either way. The bonus has been paid already. The 2009 salary due is the same either way, if it is a career ending injury. The 2010 payments will not be paid either way.
The $3 million savings you mentioned is a paper savings against the 2009 salary cap, it is not a savings in payments made by the Packers. The Packers paid it and Harrell got it already.
There is an accounting difference, but not a cost difference.Comment
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sorry, wishful thinking. Was hoping for a nerd fight.Originally posted by Patler
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