Whatever Happened to the Draw and the Fake Handoff?

[Fritz]

My perception was that early in his career Favre was good at faking the handoff, but as time passed he began to gesture toward the running back - not a great fake. I attributed that not necessarily to him, though - I thought maybe there'd been a sea change amongst coaches, the thinking being maybe that actually sticking the ball in there and pulling it out was too dangerous, and that a motion alone for a fake would freeze the linebackers enough to buy the QB enough time. I know that later in his career, when Favre would hand the ball off he'd make it clear as day that that was what he was doing - he'd hold that ball right out there for the running back.

The extinction of the draw play makes sense. though. Why give the ball to a guy while the linebackers are still in front of him if you can toss it to him after the linebackers have gone by?

[swede]

My perception was that early in his career Favre was good at faking the handoff, but as time passed he began to gesture toward the running back - not a great fake. I attributed that not necessarily to him, though - I thought maybe there'd been a sea change amongst coaches, the thinking being maybe that actually sticking the ball in there and pulling it out was too dangerous, and that a motion alone for a fake would freeze the linebackers enough to buy the QB enough time. I know that later in his career, when Favre would hand the ball off he'd make it clear as day that that was what he was doing - he'd hold that ball right out there for the running back.

The extinction of the draw play makes sense. though. Why give the ball to a guy while the linebackers are still in front of him if you can toss it to him after the linebackers have gone by?

Agree completely.

Kind of random, but discussion of the shovel pass reminded me...If you saw the Steeler game last night (I caught the 4th qtr and OT) Ben Roethlisberger had almost no running game. He beat pressure once by stepping up as if he were going to run up the middle, darn near crossing the LOS, and then kind of hook-shotted a sideways pass to that little RB of theirs. What the heck would you call that play? It really wasn't so much of a shovel pass as it was a hook shot. I couldn't even tell if it was planned or if Big Ben was just making it up.

[Fritz]

Okay, here's what I don't understand. Back in the day - way back, admittedly - what is now called a shovel pass would then have been called a forward lateral and consequently been seen as illegal.

What the heck happened, and if a shovel pass is legal, then what even qualifies as a forward lateral any more?

[retailguy]

Okay, here's what I don't understand. Back in the day - way back, admittedly - what is now called a shovel pass would then have been called a forward lateral and consequently been seen as illegal.

What the heck happened, and if a shovel pass is legal, then what even qualifies as a forward lateral any more?

Doesn't it have something to do with being behind the line of scrimmage?

[Fritz]

That's a good question. Maybe if you're behind the line of scrimmage you can chuck it underhand to someone ahead of you. Can that person be across the line of scrimmage, though?

But in college - and I use this cuz some teams occasionally still use the option - the QB always tosses it back or laterally to a running back, never ahead to the running back.

I lack knowledge here.

[MJZiggy]

That's a good question. Maybe if you're behind the line of scrimmage you can chuck it underhand to someone ahead of you. Can that person be across the line of scrimmage, though?

Yes. The Favre pass in the 07 Seattle game was underhand and across the line of scrimmage. He did that fairly often.

[Fritz]

Then the only situation I can see that would possibly involve a forward lateral would be if a player was across the line of scrimmage already and then attempted to underhand the ball forward.

You also could be guilty if you tried to lateral the ball during a punt or kick return but you lateralled it forward (contradiction, I know).

But when did this change occur?

[MJZiggy]

I think it's only a problem once the ball crosses the line of scrimmage. If the QB crosses the line before passing, he gets flagged and I think once the ball carrier is out of the backfield, passes must be either true lateral or backward.

[KYPack]

Then the only situation I can see that would possibly involve a forward lateral would be if a player was across the line of scrimmage already and then attempted to underhand the ball forward.

You also could be guilty if you tried to lateral the ball during a punt or kick return but you lateralled it forward (contradiction, I know).

But when did this change occur?

You two are getting into the history of the game. The team on offense gets one forward pass per play. The forward pass must be thrown behind the LOS or in the neutral zone (no crossing the line, now, Majik!)

The lateral? Coaching types will get snotty with you if you use that term. It's properly the backward pass. A "forward lateral" is really an illegal forward pass and an oxymoron.

You get one forward pass per play. A backward pass has no limit, so Stanford can run down as many trobombonists as they want. Likewise, the back pass is a live ball after it hits the ground. On change of possession, the ball is spotted at the point of recovery. A recovered back pass can't be advanced by the defense.

Some people get screwed up by the throwing motion. It doesn't matter if you toss a football overhand or underhand, it's the direction of the pass.

When did the pass come in? I didn't look any of this up, so I don't have the date but 1909, 1910, somewhere in there. You used to have to be in certain areas of the field to throw the football. to help the officials, they marked the field off in 5 yard squares. That why football fields are called "gridirons'. They looked like a grid to drunken fans.

[Fritz]

But KY, I have distinct memories - from the 70's - of teams not being able to lateral the ball to someone who was slightly even in front of the person with the ball. Teams that ran the option told running backs to stay lateral to or slightly behind the quarterback so he could pitch it legally. I don't recall running backs ever running slightly ahead of the QB. It would have been illegal, I believe, to have a QB pitch the ball underhanded and forward.

So either I'm totally wrong (possible) and what is now called a "shovel pass" was always legal, or something changed since the 70's.

[KYPack]

But KY, I have distinct memories - from the 70's - of teams not being able to lateral the ball to someone who was slightly even in front of the person with the ball. Teams that ran the option told running backs to stay lateral to or slightly behind the quarterback so he could pitch it legally. I don't recall running backs ever running slightly ahead of the QB. It would have been illegal, I believe, to have a QB pitch the ball underhanded and forward.

So either I'm totally wrong (possible) and what is now called a "shovel pass" was always legal, or something changed since the 70's.

A shovel pass is actually an ancient football play. It wasn't made illegal, it just "went away". It was used way back as a type of counter out of the single wing or ND box formations. Like most things, it just has been revamped in a modern context.

All the backward pass pitches were a function of so many college teams using the wishbone or veer offenses. In those scheme, the pitchman was near the line and the back was trying to get to the edge. The QB would always pitch back, cause that's where the back was.

The "modern" shovel pass is a blitz control play. It's like the draw, but the guy getting the ball is up near the line and the QB is avoiding the blitz. The game and the schemes changed, but not much in the rules.

[Fritz]

I appreciate the info, KY. Thanks.

On your last point about rules changes, I read a fascinating article in the Atlantic last spring, I think, about subtle changes that greatly changed the game. One example is this: wide recievers used to line up in a three point stance. Now they stand up ,and the effect upon the game is nearly staggering - now receivers can see the whole field, and they can run routes much more efficiently as a result. Another change of course has to do with the 5-yard rule. Mugging was the norm before that, and though the game is still very physical, it's opened up the passing game.

But thanks most of all for the clarification. Guess I grew up in an era when the shovel pass was just out of fashion. But running the ball 55 times and passing it twice was the thing to do if you were Bo Schembecler. He was still running that dinosaur scheme even after he'd go out to Pasadena every other year and get spanked.