Bring back my man Scott Wells!

[Packers4Ever]

Re: Bring back my man Scott Wells!

Clifton-Spitz-Wells-Sitton-Colledge

Come on, they have to do it.

Remember how bad Colledge sucked when he first tried to play NFL tackle? It takes a couple years to break these guys in.

I like Barbre, I place no limit on how good he can be. Playing in space as a pass-blocking tackle might never be his thing, nobody knows, but Sunday night shows he has a long way to go.

The team is too good to be dragged-down by such a weak link. Put the five best linemen on the field. It doesn't do any good to "build continuity" with a lineup that you are going to have to shift later on.

Agree with you 100%, HH, it drove me nuts all last fall with that (almost) constant shifting in the 'O' - did it really accomplish much? How could it when any minute there'd be another injury = move again. Is it really so difficult to find adequate, qualified Guards, Tackles, etc so each could nail down his spot, I miss Wells and Tausch too....let's not let the quality of play get dragged down, we need good, consistent players.

[pbmax]

Re: Bring back my man Scott Wells!

Agree with you 100%, HH, it drove me nuts all last fall with that (almost) constant shifting in the 'O' - did it really accomplish much? How could it when any minute there'd be another injury = move again. Is it really so difficult to find adequate, qualified Guards, Tackles, etc so each could nail down his spot, I miss Wells and Tausch too....let's not let the quality of play get dragged down, we need good, consistent players.

Last year was the steadiest lineup we have had since McCarthy came on board, until Tauscher go hurt. Do you mean shifting in the preseason in 2008?

[pbmax]

I wonder what the team's feelings are Tauscher really are. It seems to me he was playing at a high level up until his injury. I seem to remember it being said that we might not be able to afford to re-sign him.

Is there no mechanism by which the Pack could sign him so he could use their facilities and medical staff to rehab, without costing the team too much? If he signed for the vet minimum, he wouldn't count because he wouldn't be one of the 'x' top salaries, right?

Seems to me this is a shortcoming in how the salary cap is set up. A team should be able to sign a guy trying to come back from an injury and let him rehab on their dime if they want. The only reason this situation occurred is because he got injured at the end of his contract year. If he had a year left on his contract, he'd still be on the tab.

Tauscher can still pass block, but even on that he started to slip last year. Not Barbre-esque, but it was his worst numbers in McGinn's season round up since he was a rookie I believe. What he can no longer do is run block well. He was never a huge drive blocker, but he has limited mobility and trouble blocking the zone runs. And that was pre-injury. Waldo or someone had a good post about how we were actually better at running between the tackle than outside last year.

[Gunakor]

There's no way I want Wells back at center. Yes, moving someone in to spell Barbre plus moving Spitz over would mean bringing in Wells. But then he makes your center area more of a liability. He has a ton of fight in him, but he is too small and got pushed around too easily last year.

Wells can play center better than Barbre can play tackle.
Colledge can play tackle better than Barbre can play tackle.
Spitz can play guard better than Wells can play guard.

Looking at these things, I think, to get your best 5 men out there, you have to move Spitz over to guard, put Wells in at center, and shift Colledge over to tackle. And that should have been the plan back in June.

[vince]

Barbre got used to matching up against Kampman and Jolly in practice day in and day out, neither of whom have the speed rush that Ogunleye exhibited obviously.

Our defensive approach to rushing the edge is to power rush through the tackle and collapse the pocket from the outside in, not go around tackle (and usually the quarterback). Both Greene and Capers have made comments to that effect. That's what Barbre got used to blocking against all training camp.

Barbre has the footspeed and ability to handle the speed rush. He's very athletic for an o-lineman, so that's not the problem. He got caught off-guard by the speed of Ogunleye in his first game at Tackle because he hadn't seen it before. Once he got beat on the edge and Ogunleye got into his head, the classic technique is to get him leaning and counter with the club move to the inside, ala Reggie White.

There'll be more challenges for him, as he's basically as raw as a rookie at RT, but I think he'll adjust adequately. Someone mentioned Colledge and Jason Taylor, and I think this is the exact scenario playing out with an experienced speed rusher taking advantage of a lineman with the ability, but not the praparation to handle him. Part of that responsibility lies with the coaches.

McCarthy will lean toward giving his guy a chip from the TE or back for additional support while he continues to gain experience and success. I also suspect the coaches will task Brad Jones to emphasize challenging him with the speed rush off the edge on the scout team in practice a lot more so he can gain better balance to handle both the speed and power rush.

In terms of where Barbre's first start at RT would go down in the history of poor tackle performances, you can look at the record books and see hundreds of worse performances. Derrick Thomas once had 7 sacks in a game coming of the edge against someone. 6 sacks in games has been accomplished many times as well. Barbre's first game was definitely not good, but he got better as the game progressed in the game and I believe he'll continue to get better to hold his own at RT.

I don't think the coaches want to move Colledge to the right side, and Wells doesn't give them the stoutness they are looking for on the line.

[Gunakor]

I don't think the coaches want to move Colledge to the right side.

Why not? That's the question I'd like to ask, and have been dying to figure out since June. He'd likely do better than anybody else we could throw out there on the right side of the line. It's obvious they don't want to do it, but why not?

[vince]

I don't think the coaches want to move Colledge to the right side.

Why not? That's the question I'd like to ask, and have been dying to figure out since June. He'd likely do better than anybody else we could throw out there on the right side of the line. It's obvious they don't want to do it, but why not?

They may need to do that Gunk, but the offseason, training camp and preseason indicated that Barbre can get it done. You need a solid left side of the line too.

Barbre has the ability. It was his first ever start. He played badly in it. I agree with coaching him up and seeing how he responds before jumping off the deep end and returning to musical chairs along with the line - as has been identified as a problem in the past. We need a consistent running game and well-schemed pass protection. That'll likely include some help for Barbre for a bit.

We know about Wells' propensity to get pushed backwards, and Lang has a bigger learning curve than Barbre, so while changes are bound to occur if Barbre shits the can again, it's not yet time to jump off that cliff.

Barbre at RT, Spitz at C, and Colledge at LG should give them their best overall line all things considered over the course of a season and beyond. He has the ability. No one knows whether he'll respond, but I agree with giving him a little more opportunity to establish himself.

[pbmax]

I don't think the coaches want to move Colledge to the right side.

Why not? That's the question I'd like to ask, and have been dying to figure out since June. He'd likely do better than anybody else we could throw out there on the right side of the line. It's obvious they don't want to do it, but why not?

Because he is a very good Guard. Why move him from his best position?

The five best lineman theory is is wonderful. But if your five best lineman in 2000 included Mike Wahle (which it did), he still couldn't play tackle.

[Fritz]

Vince has spoken reasonably and logically to this situation. He has done a fine job making a quiet yet powerful argument for keeping Barbre over at RT for a while, at least.

He's done a hell of a lot better than the Press-Gazette, who, after one game - how many games did you say, Fritz? Oh, ONE? - that Barbe is THE weak link of the team. Forget that people were pooping the bed about Bigby, about the linebacker play in the new scheme (replace Hawk now!), about the punter. And don't forget they didn't identify him as such in training camp. Concerns, yes. But panic? No. Oh, and don't forget the body of work they have to draw from: one game. Like I said, if he is so clearly, clearly bad, where was all the anguish in the preseason?

And some of our posters here - normally sage posters - seem to be playing Chicken Little as well. What is up with you people? Many of you seem to want Thompson to run this team like Al Davis - hey, there's a big name. Let's get him! Hey, giving up a first rounder or whatever for a pro bowl defensive tackle will surely save our otherwise rudderless team - let's do that! Hey, that dude is really fast - let's draft him and pay him lots of money!

I mean, I'm not saying Barbe is great. Not even close. And I'm not against bringing Jon Runyan in for a look-see, and keeping tabs on Tauscher. But to suggest that the line needs to be re-shuffled immediately - ah, screw what we've been working on for the last month - seems panicky and unnecessary. To suggest that Barbe should be yanked immediately - that just doesn't seem to me a wise idea.

What do you do if Rouse sucks ass next week? What if he gets burned for three TD's and Bibgy is still out for week three? Cut him?

What if Sitton blows next Sunday and gives up three sacks and four pressures? Whom shall the Packers sign to take over for him?

If you panic every time something goes wrong, you have a panicked organization. Not a recipe for winning.

[run pMc]

I agree with other posters who think M3 should give Barbre another shot at RT.
I don't think bringing in Wells and shifting Colledge to RT is the best option.
LG to RT is a bigger change in terms of responsibilities, footwork and technique than some people may realize -- on the pro level, it's more than just lining up and knocking heads.
How can people complain about shifting players between positions in preseason and then call for a LG to RT switch after Week 1?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Colledge was not benched while playing tackle. He has always been an injury replacement at tackle. Jason Taylor made Colledge look like Barbre the first two pass plays then they sent the TE over on a more or less permanent basis for that Miami game.

Good God. Do you have all these old games on video tape, or are you actually crazy? You have a beautiful mind, if you saw that movie.

I think I might be conflating Colledge with Mike Wahle, who also had a brief and hot audition at LT.

I know for sure that Colledge has filled-in at LT, played well too. You must be right about Colledge's position at the early flame-out, since your eyes have the firey glow of rightous certainty.

I would hope Lang would go to LG in your configuration of Colledge at Right Tackle. But if Wells is truly their sixth best, he might go in. I think swapping around 3 lineman would be worse than waiting for Barbre to get his act together. Has Colledge played any Right Tackle at all?

Ya, shifting sucks, but shifting now is a hell of a lot better than shifting later in the season. That's why it's worth considering now.

IF you are putting Lang at LG, then there is no reason to bring Wells off the bench. I couldn't hazhard a guess whether Lang is better than Wells.

And remember, Bruce Wilkerson started finally in Game 4 versus Minnesota I think of the 96 season.

Didn't he get abused in the dome? I think that was a guy I was thinking of as competition for Barbre's epic night.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Oh ya, and regard to the point of whether Colledge can play tackle: he's beefed-up the last couple years, hell, I'd trust him. I think he is an excellent linemen, very nimble and has some punch.

[Harlan Huckleby]

How can people complain about shifting players between positions in preseason and then call for a LG to RT switch after Week 1?

Did you watch the game Sunday night?

See Mike Vandermause's column.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090915/PKR07/90915202/1058/PKR01

I just read a comment there that Barbre will be matched-up part of the time against Cincinatti's Jumpy Gathers



Gathers may be a better player than Ogunleye.

I think people instinctively think that waiting to make a decision is the conservative, less risky approach. But not making a decision carries risks too.

Colledge can be an excellent tackle, he was an excellent tackle in college, has shown ability at LT in fill-ins in GB, he's beefed-up now. Tackle is a more critical position than guard.

Pull the trigger, Mike.

[pbmax]

And remember, Bruce Wilkerson started finally in Game 4 versus Minnesota I think of the 96 season.

Didn't he get abused in the dome? I think that was a guy I was thinking of as competition for Barbre's epic night.

Gary Brown had the worst time in the dome I think. And Ruettgers knee would not respond.

I think for the reason explained in this thread, McCarthy will have a short leash, but its not short enough to happen before Game 3 unless its a jailbreak again.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Gary Brown had the worst time in the dome I think. And Ruettgers knee would not respond. .

Yes, yes, that was the Oscar-winning performance! My God you have a memory, although I suspect all these details are scribbled on the ceiling and walls of your bedroom, and you review them every night as you lay awake with the lights on, mumbling the names "Mike Sherman" and "Brent Fullwood" and such.