Ted Thompson's scalp

[Patler]

1) Why would you put your 2nd best pass protector on the bench?

LT is something of a specialty. Why would you expect that centers and guards can play the position?

Cuz Mike Flanagan did, and quite well, too!

[Waldo]

1) Why would you put your 2nd best pass protector on the bench?

LT is something of a specialty. Why would you expect that centers and guards can play the position?

It is not just the Packers, a good % of the league's lineman played LT at some point. Colleges put their best lineman at LT. The NFL only takes the best.

Clifton, Colledge, Lang, Meredith, Barbre, and Deitrich-Smith all played LT in college.

Sitton was a RT in college (LH QB I believe). Spitz and Wells are our only lineman that weren't college tackles.

[Harlan Huckleby]

So you're saying that most nfl lineman can play LT in the NFL?

I don't think so.

[3irty1]

So you're saying that most nfl lineman can play LT in the NFL?

I don't think so.

All he's saying is that most backups for the LT aren't just a backup, they also start somewhere else on the line. I'd imagine that's true.

[Waldo]

So you're saying that most nfl lineman can play LT in the NFL?

I don't think so.

No, that most have experience at it, including G's (not a lot of C's).

And that it is idiotic to bench your 2nd best pass protector in the name of not shuffling for injuries, and idiotic to not use your 2nd best pass protector as your backup LT due to the high potential of losing the ball (not injury) if the QB gets hit from behind.

Almost all, if not all, NFL teams start their backup LT elsewhere. Most NFL lineman have played LT at some point anyway. Very few lineman that weren't good enough to play LT in college make it in the NFL. Unless they are short. Then they snap.

There is no can and can't. There is good and less good. Chances are the 2nd best pass protector is the least less good at LT, no matter what position he otherwise plays.

[Harlan Huckleby]

And that it is idiotic to bench your 2nd best pass protector .

You keep stating as fact that the backup LT must be the second best pass blocker, and that every team in the NFL will break-up their starting line to move that player to LT. I don't buy either. I expect about half the teams half a tackle with decent pass blocking skills who they would prefer to fill-in rather than reshuffle the line.

[Harlan Huckleby]

So you're saying that most nfl lineman can play LT in the NFL?

I don't think so.

All he's saying is that most backups for the LT aren't just a backup, they also start somewhere else on the line. I'd imagine that's true.

He claims "almost all, if not all" teams have no dedicated LT backup. And he also said that most lineman have experience at LT and can play LT. I don't buy either claim.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I just did a google on "backup Left tackle, NFL", the first two links are about Ugoh, backup left tackle for the colts. And second link is article how Max Starks was a backup tackle for Pittsburg last year and filled-in when Marvel Smith had back problems.

Your theory is taking on water.

[Waldo]

I just did a google on "backup Left tackle, NFL", the first two links are about Ugoh, backup left tackle for the colts. And second link is article how Max Starks was a backup tackle for Pittsburg last year and filled-in when Marvel Smith had back problems.

Your theory is taking on water.

Starks has started 47 of 74 possible games in his career, 47 of 64 since his rookie year. He lost a camp competition to Colon at RT in '07, but started a few games at LT, then the competition at RT was reopened, as Starks was definitely the better pass blocker, Colon the better run blocker. Colon was almost moved to G in favor of Starks at RT, but the injury to Smith made him a permanent LT. They put the transition tag on him in '08, paying him 7M for the year, and gave him a 4yr extension at low end LT money. Backup. LOL. He was the future at LT for the team, everybody knew it. If Starks gets hurt, RG Trey Essex slides over, he is the backup LT.

Ugoh has started 23 of 28 games in his career, he was the LT, but their backup LG (filling in for Lilja) showed to be a better pass protector, thus getting moved to LT, Ugoh being benched as the supersub, he couldn't beat out Lilja at LG (returning from injury) or Charlie at LT this year in camp. He was brought in to be the future at LT (higher draft pick than DC), but after a good rookie year he has big time regressed and appears to be a bust. Indy is in fact playing their former backup LT, their LG, at LT, after benching their former LT.

Next.

We just played a LG playing LT. The Bengals cut their former LT, Levi Jones, after drafting Andre Smith; while he gets up to speed, their LG Andre Whitworth, formerly the 2nd best pass protector on the team, is currently the starting LT.

[Patler]

Waldo; I am a little confused about what your argument really is. You stated:

Almost all, if not all, NFL teams start their backup LT elsewhere. Most NFL lineman have played LT at some point anyway. Very few lineman that weren't good enough to play LT in college make it in the NFL. Unless they are short. Then they snap.

There is no can and can't. There is good and less good. Chances are the 2nd best pass protector is the least less good at LT, no matter what position he otherwise plays.

Then, when you are presented with a name of a backup LT not currently a starter, you write about him having been a starter, but getting beaten out. Why is that relevant? You write about reorganized lines coming out of TC moving a starter from elsewhere to LT. That's a different situation entirely than a midseason injury substitution.

I looked at the depth charts of the first 16 teams alphabetically. Five list a starter elsewhere as the backup LT or do not list a backup LT, and presumably a starter elsewhere is the backup. Green bay is one of the teams with no backup LT listed. Eleven of the teams list a backup LT who is not a starter elsewhere. I realize that the list is not golden, and when faced with the actual situation a starter elsewhere might be used at LT before the listed backup is used.

But, "Almost all, if not all...."? Might be hard to prove without polling the head coaches about what they would really do in the situation!

[Harlan Huckleby]

Waldo, I think you would be on solid ground in stating, "it is not unusual for a team to use a starter as a backup at LT." I suspect it is about 50%, I thought about doing a team depth chart search as Patler did, but didn't have the heart for it.

I think we need to get back to the issue of Ted Thompson's scalp. Did he assemble enough depth for the offensive line? I say NO. Having zero playable backups at tackle is at least 1 too few.

I suppose you can say that Moll let him down, but that was TT's call to rely on him.

[pbmax]

1) Why would you put your 2nd best pass protector on the bench?

LT is something of a specialty. Why would you expect that centers and guards can play the position?

Cuz Mike Flanagan did, and quite well, too!

That was amazing. Not such a good thing for the eventual success of the team (they were clearly weaker after having to make the switch) but Flanagan should get his own section of the Packer Hall of Fame for being able to play both effectively.

[mngolf19]

How many teams in the league don't play their backup LT elsewhere on the line? I would wager zero .

I accept your wager, and will even spot your 10 teams. (This is a safe bet, since it is impossible to verify. )

I bet more than half the teams have a backup LT.

Vikes backup LT is Hicks and he is also backup at RT and RG. He does not start anywhere.

[mraynrand]

How many teams in the league don't play their backup LT elsewhere on the line? I would wager zero .

I accept your wager, and will even spot your 10 teams. (This is a safe bet, since it is impossible to verify. )

I bet more than half the teams have a backup LT.

Vikes backup LT is Hicks and he is also backup at RT and RG. He does not start anywhere.

I think you and Harlan may be missing the point, but let me know if I'm wrong. Hicks is the listed backup on the depth chart but that doesn't guarantee that he will be the guy who will go in at LT if McKinnie goes down - Someone else like Hutch, from along the line could take that spot. Being listed as backup on the depth chart doesn't mean you will come in at that spot. Colledge is not listed on the LT depth chart. (I think that's how depth charts work - you don't list the same guy twice)

[Patler]

How many teams in the league don't play their backup LT elsewhere on the line? I would wager zero .

I accept your wager, and will even spot your 10 teams. (This is a safe bet, since it is impossible to verify. )

I bet more than half the teams have a backup LT.

Vikes backup LT is Hicks and he is also backup at RT and RG. He does not start anywhere.

I think you and Harlan may be missing the point, but let me know if I'm wrong. Hicks is the listed backup on the depth chart but that doesn't guarantee that he will be the guy who will go in at LT if McKinnie goes down - Someone else like Hutch, from along the line could take that spot. Being listed as backup on the depth chart doesn't mean you will come in at that spot. Colledge is not listed on the LT depth chart. (I think that's how depth charts work - you don't list the same guy twice)

It depends, some teams do list guys twice. For example, on their website K.C. lists Ndukwe as the starter at RT and as the backup at LT. There aren't any "rules" about it though, as far as I know.