Packers Linebackers

[Deputy Nutz]

The best and the brightest in this forum were saying last summer that Kampman was set to excel in the 3-4. Where do I turn to now for guidance?

Appears absurd now.

Well I was saying if they were going to use him as a hybrid defensive end. Sometimes up sometimes with his hand down, unfortunately they don't do that. I figured he would be used like Suggs in Baltimore

It is not that he isn't a good outside linebacker, he is average. the problem is that he isn't as good a linebacker as he is an end.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I, who am widely regarded as knowing very little about football, thought Kampman's was unlikely to be not as good as before. That's just because there is a small difference between players in the pros, and you take any guy out of his element .....

[rbaloha1]

The best and the brightest in this forum were saying last summer that Kampman was set to excel in the 3-4. Where do I turn to now for guidance?

Appears absurd now.

Well I was saying if they were going to use him as a hybrid defensive end. Sometimes up sometimes with his hand down, unfortunately they don't do that. I figured he would be used like Suggs in Baltimore

It is not that he isn't a good outside linebacker, he is average. the problem is that he isn't as good a linebacker as he is an end.

Agreed. Its sad to watch a premier player struggling in an obvious weakness.

[mraynrand]

The problem with Kampman seems to be with the zone blitz aspect, where he drops back in coverage, with or without Jenkins, and the other LBs rush in there. The ZB is supposed to create havoc for protections and confuse the O-line. If the blitzing linebackers can't disrupt, then you have Kampy looking like a fool dropping in coverage. But that would be true of any OLB in a ZB that doesn't work. Either the scheme didn't work (no confusion, missed blocking assignments), the other LBs suck getting to the QB, the QB is good at getting the ball out, or a combination of the three. If the ZB sucks, then wouldn't it be better to just let Kamp stay on the line and rush the QB as much as possible?

[denverYooper]

Offside isn't ticky-tacky. It's boolean. You either are or you aren't. No grey area. That picture is a terrible angle for judging the call I might add.

There's a gray area because it still depends on human judgment. It's actually more of a sigmoid curve after compression of all of the complex inputs involved: retina + LGN + V1 + past experience + <stickin' it to 'em> + ...

So, is the input from component S(0), "Stickin' it to 'em" sufficient to push the sigmoidal decision function over 0,0 and cause a flag to be thrown?

[Deputy Nutz]

The problem with Kampman seems to be with the zone blitz aspect, where he drops back in coverage, with or without Jenkins, and the other LBs rush in there. The ZB is supposed to create havoc for protections and confuse the O-line. If the blitzing linebackers can't disrupt, then you have Kampy looking like a fool dropping in coverage. But that would be true of any OLB in a ZB that doesn't work. Either the scheme didn't work (no confusion, missed blocking assignments), the other LBs suck getting to the QB, the QB is good at getting the ball out, or a combination of the three. If the ZB sucks, then wouldn't it be better to just let Kamp stay on the line and rush the QB as much as possible?

I am down with this.

[wist43]

The best and the brightest in this forum were saying last summer that Kampman was set to excel in the 3-4. Where do I turn to now for guidance?

What are you saying Harlan, that I'm not among the best and brightest??? lol

[Waldo]

While at times does look bad at coverage, he has not been abused.

Kamp's run stopping has drastically improved since PS. He was a joke in PS, he's looking pretty good right now there.

Hypothetical #'s here:

Say Kamp rushes 30 times a game and drops 10 times a game. He gets no pressure when he rushes or drops.

Are those 10 drops going to be the difference, is he going to generate pressure on those.

Last year he was double teamed. This year it is the scheme. At some point people need to admit that Kamp isn't a very good pass rusher. He's not a move around, terrorize type rusher. He isn't a hit the QB in 2.5 sec rusher. He isn't a dominated, or smoked 'em type rusher. He is a beneficiary of flushed QB's and coverage rusher.

Most of the real good ones are naturals, and can do it from the get go. Kamp wasn't even draftable his #'s were so bad. But he ran an eye popping 40, and the Pack took a chance. Took him years to be more than a run stopping DE though. Matthews isn't really a natural either, but he's got that football player/linebacker mentality, kind of a thing like his dad had, which is still a very valuable kind of guy to have. Brad Jones is a natural. He could get after it the second he stepped on the field in PS. Haven't seen that degree of natural ability since young KGB. I would not be disappointed at all if we started subbing Jones in at LOLB in some passing situations.

[Fosco33]

It's mostly Capers, I believe. I don't believe in the premise that we've been ultra-conservative either. Different game. Different gameplan. It seems to me we blitzed a lot against Chicago, and we blitzed early against Cincinnati. When Benson started running well, we tweaked the plan a bit. St. Louis has one guy that can beat you, Steven Jackson. That was the focus. Minnesota has the best RB on the planet, so you have to game plan him. They decided that blitzing could open things up against Peterson. Favre played a great game. The safety breakdowns didn't help, and I don't think they thought they'd go so little pressure rushing four. Choose your poison, I guess. If we blitz, and Peterson runs for 70 yards, then people would complain about that. I think you'll see more blitzing against Detroit (because they'll want to rattle the rookie) and Cleveland (because their running game is pretty anemic).

I totally agree. But why didn't we adjust to Favre playing lights out and take the risk of AP taking one off... Couldn't we have balanced the scheme and kept the Vikes O on their toes?

[Waldo]

It's mostly Capers, I believe. I don't believe in the premise that we've been ultra-conservative either. Different game. Different gameplan. It seems to me we blitzed a lot against Chicago, and we blitzed early against Cincinnati. When Benson started running well, we tweaked the plan a bit. St. Louis has one guy that can beat you, Steven Jackson. That was the focus. Minnesota has the best RB on the planet, so you have to game plan him. They decided that blitzing could open things up against Peterson. Favre played a great game. The safety breakdowns didn't help, and I don't think they thought they'd go so little pressure rushing four. Choose your poison, I guess. If we blitz, and Peterson runs for 70 yards, then people would complain about that. I think you'll see more blitzing against Detroit (because they'll want to rattle the rookie) and Cleveland (because their running game is pretty anemic).

I totally agree. But why didn't we adjust to Favre playing lights out and take the risk of AP taking one off... Couldn't we have balanced the scheme and kept the Vikes O on their toes?

We actually did. We didn't play 8 in the box very much. Collins might have crept a bit closer as a rover, but he has the make up speed to do that and still man a deep zone.

Favre abused the same thing that Boller and Palmer did. The guy replacing Bigby.

Almost every TD that we have given up all season, and almost every big play, have been partially or fully the fault of the guy replacing Bigby.

[Deputy Nutz]

While at times does look bad at coverage, he has not been abused.

Kamp's run stopping has drastically improved since PS. He was a joke in PS, he's looking pretty good right now there.

Hypothetical #'s here:

Say Kamp rushes 30 times a game and drops 10 times a game. He gets no pressure when he rushes or drops.

Are those 10 drops going to be the difference, is he going to generate pressure on those.

Last year he was double teamed. This year it is the scheme. At some point people need to admit that Kamp isn't a very good pass rusher. He's not a move around, terrorize type rusher. He isn't a hit the QB in 2.5 sec rusher. He isn't a dominated, or smoked 'em type rusher. He is a beneficiary of flushed QB's and coverage rusher.

Most of the real good ones are naturals, and can do it from the get go. Kamp wasn't even draftable his #'s were so bad. But he ran an eye popping 40, and the Pack took a chance. Took him years to be more than a run stopping DE though. Matthews isn't really a natural either, but he's got that football player/linebacker mentality, kind of a thing like his dad had, which is still a very valuable kind of guy to have. Brad Jones is a natural. He could get after it the second he stepped on the field in PS. Haven't seen that degree of natural ability since young KGB. I would not be disappointed at all if we started subbing Jones in at LOLB in some passing situations.

I understand your point, but the fact is he registered a shit load of sacks the past 3 years. If I remember right he was drafted as a defensive tackle with the hope that he was going to put on weight. I like Kampman because he is a combination of speed and bullrush off the corner. Is he Freeney? No, he isn't even Julius Peppers, but very few pass rushers will ever be LT or Reggie White. What made Kampy above average was that he could clog the run and get after the QB, especially when there is a guy in the middle that can get penetration. Kampman never gets dominated at the line of scrimmage as a pass rusher, he may not have the moves or the ability to change direction, but he gets up field and makes the QB move around in the pocket. It also takes at least two good defensive pass rushers for one to shine.

Brad Jones is a linebacker, he is not a defensive end asked to play linebacker. Funny how you can be down about a veteran that was 3rd in the league in sacks over the past 4 years, but are praising a 7th round draft pick for his natural ability. There have been a ton of football players come through this organization with natural ability, some get better, but most fail because it takes more than natural ability to stay in this league. This league is about production. I like Jones, I am glad he was kept on the roster, but he is a next year player if he keeps developing. He is a bit small at 230 pounds, not saying that he couldn't play OLB at that weight, but it would be to his benefit to put on 10 to 15 pounds of muscle.

[Fosco33]

It's mostly Capers, I believe. I don't believe in the premise that we've been ultra-conservative either. Different game. Different gameplan. It seems to me we blitzed a lot against Chicago, and we blitzed early against Cincinnati. When Benson started running well, we tweaked the plan a bit. St. Louis has one guy that can beat you, Steven Jackson. That was the focus. Minnesota has the best RB on the planet, so you have to game plan him. They decided that blitzing could open things up against Peterson. Favre played a great game. The safety breakdowns didn't help, and I don't think they thought they'd go so little pressure rushing four. Choose your poison, I guess. If we blitz, and Peterson runs for 70 yards, then people would complain about that. I think you'll see more blitzing against Detroit (because they'll want to rattle the rookie) and Cleveland (because their running game is pretty anemic).

I totally agree. But why didn't we adjust to Favre playing lights out and take the risk of AP taking one off... Couldn't we have balanced the scheme and kept the Vikes O on their toes?

We actually did. We didn't play 8 in the box very much. Collins might have crept a bit closer as a rover, but he has the make up speed to do that and still man a deep zone.

Favre abused the same thing that Boller and Palmer did. The guy replacing Bigby.

Almost every TD that we have given up all season, and almost every big play, have been partially or fully the fault of the guy replacing Bigby.

Interesting. When I see 8 in the box, I presume for run protection and slants, quick outs, screens, etc. Favre was chucking it downfield... why not more nickle or even dimes? The over the top protection - middle/deep was piss poor.

How many 3rd and 10's were completed by the Vikes?

I totally agree on the safety issue - mentioned it a few times myself in the game thread. And I agree with CW's comments after the game.

What worries me the most... we have 2 gaping issues (Oline -left side; Deep coverage) and teams are appropriately game planning. Outside the first 2 series for Arod or 1st/2nd down defense; we haven't done enough to counter these issues.

[Fosco33]

I'd be willing to give NB more time to heal while we play 2 weaker opponents (and have the bye). I'm not sure if it's his lack of PS and exposure to the scheme or a weak knee - but he doesn't look the same - at all. He looked lost in pass coverage (giving up a TD in the red zone) and totally whiffed in numerous run coverage plays. I'd be much happier with Bishop at this point. Chillar is jag; I appreciate Popp's work ethic but I've never been a fan.

I agree with most that the rook should get more time.

I'm ok with Hawk as it's a transition year - he's still a starter on most teams.

RE: Kamp - he's starting to adjust better and still got in the backfield more than the down DL when he was lining up on the outside line. Game by game he's looking better - can't fault him for improving. By season's end, he'll be a decent out of position player. I don't think we franchise him and we'll probably lose him to another team (really wish you could get value for him).

[SnakeLH2006]

Re: Packers Linebackers

Anyone who has dvr'd the game, you have to go re-watch the play where Favre had like 7.3 seconds to throw the ball. They show an angle from behind the Vikings line and if you watch Barnett, it is freakin hilarious.

He steps in, like a fake rush (but a terrible fake) then steps back a few steps, turns in a circle (lookin around like wth am I supposed to be)steps up then goes back again. Chiken with his head cut off type of play.

On that note, Barnett is not suited to play in a 3-4 defense. He is best asset is (or was) his speed and ability to run sideline to sideline and make plays. However, in a 3-4 the ilb's do not need to run side to side. They need to be agressive and meet plays head on and use their strength to attack. Yes, he lead the team in tackles vs Minny, but how many were 4 or more yards downfield ?

Barnett is totally miscast in his current role. In my opinion, the best LB group for the pack would be Chillar, Bishop, Hawk and Matthews.

Matthews shows flashes of what he will eventually be capable of doing, once he gets a few more games under his belt.

Hawk is now the lb that does the grunt work inside. So his tackle numbers will suffer, but he rarely is out of place.

Kampmann was a great DE in a 4-3, he currently a liability in Capers 3-4 (at least based on how he is being used at this point.) Chillar has shown he is a better blitzer, so far.)

Snake totally agrees. Barnett is horrible in this new 3-4. Bench his ass (fuck his contract) and bring up my man Bishop. Barnett in 4 games looks clueless. Matthews (a rook mind you) makes plays...Hawk is ok. Chillar is a beast. Kampy is SO FUCKING LOST. Bring up the Bishop. What do they have to lose?

Ditto. Agree that MM is scared to blitz as much as DC really wants. Let Barnett pout and tweet.

QFT rbaloha.

I have tons of buds from Green Bay that have seen/see Barnett at the clubs constantly fighting over fat white trash chicks. Yeah, he doesn't get in trouble for the most part, but that seems his mission. So many stories of him the nite after a game sitting with his phone Twittering away as 2 fat white chicks duke it out. Personally, I could care less about what Nick does after practice/games...but with his Twitter shit, it puts in in perspective. That dude (Nick Barnett) is fat and happy with his contract.

Snake looks at games. Dude is as non-descript as AJ Hawk lately. I could care less about his knee injury. Those things are healed in 6 months lately in recent medicine. I don't think he cares about football knowing he's paid for 4 more years.

Give a hungry beast who makes plays a shot (Bishop). Barnett was pretty fantastic 3 years ago in 2006 till he got paid. Fat and lazy...forget his injury. He doesn't want to get hurt again now that he's long term. He's tentative and not looking at making plays anymore with a long-term contract. Bishop is hungry and was the MVP of 3 of the 4 preseason games this year. Play the fucker.

Snake is a straight up dude. I'll tell you how it is. Peeps (friends) respect me for this. Bishop should play. Barnett should sit. But that won't happen. MM is bullheaded (OLine with the musical chairs) and is too much a pussy to cause locker room drama. Bishop tore up the last 2 preseasons and Special Teams play with tackles/hits. That guy (Bishop) is fired up and makes plays. Barnett might be hampered with his injury to a little extent, but I've seen him lay off tackles cuz he doesn't want to get hurt. Bishop puts his fucking body on the line. Play him. MM has no nutz or soul. We'll prob. end up 6-10 again with his BS. I'm done with MM. He has no balls to upset the monetary hierarchy...even JSOnline said as much.....

[Pugger]

I'm not surprised to see our D struggle at times. This is a whole new scheme and we all knew there would be bumps in the road. Considering how woeful our O line has been and our D still working out the kinks it is a wonder we are 2-2 right now. We have a lot of football yet to be played. Often teams turn things around after a bye.