The Defense

[The Shadow]

If the defense starts coming together, Kamp might well still adapt successfully.
I think the safety communication (or lack thereof) is really holding things back.

[pbmax]

2600 (Bigby!) practiced today, guess it was the full practice as no limitation is mentioned.

Jenkins and Pickett rehabbed unknown injuries. Poppinga missed practice with no reported injury. Guess is the flu.

[pbmax]

Official Word:
S Atari Bigby (knee, full participation),
LT Chad Clifton (ankle, limited),
LG Daryn Colledge (knee, full),
FB Korey Hall (calf, out),
RB Brandon Jackson (ankle, full),
DL Cullen Jenkins (ankle, limited),
NT Ryan Pickett (hip, limited),
LB Brady Poppinga (illness, did not participate),
T Mark Tauscher (knee, limited),
OLB Jeremy Thompson (knee, limited),
RB DeShawn Wynn (knee, did not participate)

Not a good sign about Jenkins and Pickett. Raji, though, would seem to be a full go from now on.

[Brandon494]

Why is everyone freaking out? Remeber not one player on our defense has experience in the 3-4 defense. We have completely changed defensive schemes, its going to take some time for players to get comfortable in it. Don't let the preseason fool you when we were going all out on defensive against teams running a vanilla style offense. If we are still strugging on defense like we are now towards the end of the season then I'll be worried.

[Freak Out]

Official Word:
S Atari Bigby (knee, full participation),
LT Chad Clifton (ankle, limited),
LG Daryn Colledge (knee, full),
FB Korey Hall (calf, out),
RB Brandon Jackson (ankle, full),
DL Cullen Jenkins (ankle, limited),
NT Ryan Pickett (hip, limited),
LB Brady Poppinga (illness, did not participate),
T Mark Tauscher (knee, limited),
OLB Jeremy Thompson (knee, limited),
RB DeShawn Wynn (knee, did not participate)

Not a good sign about Jenkins and Pickett. Raji, though, would seem to be a full go from now on.

Sure would be nice to get Jackson healthy and on the field again.

[Brandon494]

Official Word:
S Atari Bigby (knee, full participation),
LT Chad Clifton (ankle, limited),
LG Daryn Colledge (knee, full),
FB Korey Hall (calf, out),
RB Brandon Jackson (ankle, full),
DL Cullen Jenkins (ankle, limited),
NT Ryan Pickett (hip, limited),
LB Brady Poppinga (illness, did not participate),
T Mark Tauscher (knee, limited),
OLB Jeremy Thompson (knee, limited),
RB DeShawn Wynn (knee, did not participate)

Not a good sign about Jenkins and Pickett. Raji, though, would seem to be a full go from now on.

If there was any worry about Jenkins and Pickett they would have held them out completely, prob just taking it easy just in case.

[wist43]

Beyond that, Capers needs to get more creative on a consistent basis up front... lining up in a static 3-4 presnap look... that's not going to cut it.

One of these days I will understand exactly what you want other than success.

In passing downs (just shy of 50% so far) the Packers predominantly line up in a 2-4-5 alignment. When you eliminate the position abbreviations, looks exactly like a 4-2-5 nickel, the very defense you claim you want due to personnel. And Kampman is at end.

With standup ends, the QB has to guess which is coming, plus the option to bring another rusher from middle or corner/slot.

The defense has to give the coordinator a chance. We stopped the run well aganst the Vikes. But now we need to be able to bring pressure and not get gouged for big runs. Do that, and no one will be bleeting about alignments anymore.

I agree with you that the DC should not simply hold back and prepare for the worst case, thereby giving the offense the initiative. You must bring some pressure even if there is a chance of the runner escaping.

As for other points, Bigby not going is a bad sign. It was an early bye, but will he be right at anytime this season?

I was on the Chillar at OLB bandwagon early this offseason, but seeing him take on and be defeated by blocks inside, I do not think he could hold the edge on runs as OLB.*

* Several posters came to this conclusion WAY before I caught on. I am not claiming this as my insight.

I wanted the switch to the 3-4, and have wanted it for years... however, now that they've made the switch, it is unrealistic to think they can just shift gears seamlessly.

They had an entire defensive roster made up of 4-3 players... and average, to below average ones at that. It's delusional to think below average 4-3 players will excel in a 3-4. As I said, it's going to take time to transition.

That said, in the short term... I want to see Capers use more 4-2 pass rush sets... based mainly on the strengths of the personnel he has at his disposal. Raji would be a beast at DT in a 4 man rush, and that is where Kampman can make an impact.

As it is... Kamp is wasted, and none of the other LB's present a pass rush threat. Matthews and Jones can in time I think, but as things stand now, we're generating no pressure. No defense can be successful without generating pressure.

In the longer term... Kamp is gone next year, is Barnett up??? if he is, he's gone too... i.e. transition to 3-4 players. Gonna take time. That's why I wanted to switch 4 years ago... by now, we'd have a 3-4 roster in place, and we'd be looking to make a run.

[sharpe1027]

I wanted the switch to the 3-4, and have wanted it for years... however, now that they've made the switch, it is unrealistic to think they can just shift gears seamlessly.

They had an entire defensive roster made up of 4-3 players... and average, to below average ones at that. It's delusional to think below average 4-3 players will excel in a 3-4. As I said, it's going to take time to transition.

That said, in the short term... I want to see Capers use more 4-2 pass rush sets... based mainly on the strengths of the personnel he has at his disposal. Raji would be a beast at DT in a 4 man rush, and that is where Kampman can make an impact.

As it is... Kamp is wasted, and none of the other LB's present a pass rush threat. Matthews and Jones can in time I think, but as things stand now, we're generating no pressure. No defense can be successful without generating pressure.

In the longer term... Kamp is gone next year, is Barnett up??? if he is, he's gone too... i.e. transition to 3-4 players. Gonna take time. That's why I wanted to switch 4 years ago... by now, we'd have a 3-4 roster in place, and we'd be looking to make a run.

I don't buy this 4-3 personnel vs. 3-4 personnel. Sometimes football players are just football players and not some widget designed for on scheme or another.

Al Harris - bump-and run only guy that is too old and will fall flat on his face in a 3-4 zone scheme. I don't think so.

Pickett - Not able to play NT...yet he has been his job well.

The most common scapegoat or complaint is Kampman:

Kampman - Had 10 sacks total last year, four of the them coming in the first 3 games meaning the remainder of the season he had only 6 sacks spread out over 13 games. He has one this year in four games, which isn't that much different than most of last year. Not to mention he has 21 tackles already, which means he is on pace to annihilate his tackle total from last year.

You argument about no pressure because of the 3-4 doesn't convince me because it isn't any different than last year, same guys...same problem. IMHO, the problem isn't "4-3" guys in a "3-4" scheme.

[ThunderDan]

Beyond that, Capers needs to get more creative on a consistent basis up front... lining up in a static 3-4 presnap look... that's not going to cut it.

One of these days I will understand exactly what you want other than success.

In passing downs (just shy of 50% so far) the Packers predominantly line up in a 2-4-5 alignment. When you eliminate the position abbreviations, looks exactly like a 4-2-5 nickel, the very defense you claim you want due to personnel. And Kampman is at end.

With standup ends, the QB has to guess which is coming, plus the option to bring another rusher from middle or corner/slot.

The defense has to give the coordinator a chance. We stopped the run well aganst the Vikes. But now we need to be able to bring pressure and not get gouged for big runs. Do that, and no one will be bleeting about alignments anymore.

I agree with you that the DC should not simply hold back and prepare for the worst case, thereby giving the offense the initiative. You must bring some pressure even if there is a chance of the runner escaping.

As for other points, Bigby not going is a bad sign. It was an early bye, but will he be right at anytime this season?

I was on the Chillar at OLB bandwagon early this offseason, but seeing him take on and be defeated by blocks inside, I do not think he could hold the edge on runs as OLB.*

* Several posters came to this conclusion WAY before I caught on. I am not claiming this as my insight.

I wanted the switch to the 3-4, and have wanted it for years... however, now that they've made the switch, it is unrealistic to think they can just shift gears seamlessly.

They had an entire defensive roster made up of 4-3 players... and average, to below average ones at that. It's delusional to think below average 4-3 players will excel in a 3-4. As I said, it's going to take time to transition.

That said, in the short term... I want to see Capers use more 4-2 pass rush sets... based mainly on the strengths of the personnel he has at his disposal. Raji would be a beast at DT in a 4 man rush, and that is where Kampman can make an impact.

As it is... Kamp is wasted, and none of the other LB's present a pass rush threat. Matthews and Jones can in time I think, but as things stand now, we're generating no pressure. No defense can be successful without generating pressure.

In the longer term... Kamp is gone next year, is Barnett up??? if he is, he's gone too... i.e. transition to 3-4 players. Gonna take time. That's why I wanted to switch 4 years ago... by now, we'd have a 3-4 roster in place, and we'd be looking to make a run.

People would have gotten mad at TT for that. Why would TT pull apart the defense and rebuild while Favre should get one for run at the SuperBowl? Just sign a few FA and patch the 4-3 for a few more years.

I think TT has wanted to get to a 3-4 for years but couldn't becasue of BF. After Bert leaves it's hard to retread your D after a 13-3 year. Last years 6-10 finally gave TT the excuse to rip the D apart.

Like you Wist, I think we should have switched to the 3-4 years ago.

[pbmax]

I wanted the switch to the 3-4, and have wanted it for years... however, now that they've made the switch, it is unrealistic to think they can just shift gears seamlessly.

They had an entire defensive roster made up of 4-3 players... and average, to below average ones at that. It's delusional to think below average 4-3 players will excel in a 3-4. As I said, it's going to take time to transition.

That said, in the short term... I want to see Capers use more 4-2 pass rush sets... based mainly on the strengths of the personnel he has at his disposal. Raji would be a beast at DT in a 4 man rush, and that is where Kampman can make an impact.

As it is... Kamp is wasted, and none of the other LB's present a pass rush threat. Matthews and Jones can in time I think, but as things stand now, we're generating no pressure. No defense can be successful without generating pressure.

In the longer term... Kamp is gone next year, is Barnett up??? if he is, he's gone too... i.e. transition to 3-4 players. Gonna take time. That's why I wanted to switch 4 years ago... by now, we'd have a 3-4 roster in place, and we'd be looking to make a run.

In the 2-4-5, who is lining up as the second tackle? Jenkins and who? I think it has been Jolly, who has been a beast.

But the reason Raji isn't there full time probably has more to do with his injury than Jolly or scheme.

And Kampman is rushing at end from a 2 point stance. I think the lack of sacks has to do more with opportunities to rush than technique from a 2 point stance.

I might consider running a 3-3-5 and keep Kampman at end.

[Waldo]

Those 10 times a game that Kamp drops, vs. the 25 he rushes, are just killing his sack totals.

Kamp lost it last year. Everything from scheme, to guys around him, "double teams", etc... has been blamed for his lack of sacks.

It is time to blame Kamp. Look at his sack totals. 0.5, 2.0, 4.5, 6.5, 15.5. 12.0, 9.5, 1.0

He had 13.5 in his first 48 starts, had a great year, a very good year, and a good year. He was better earlier than later last year. It took him 4 years of work before he found his mojo, and since he found it, his #'s have been in steady decline.

Be honest, nobody seriously considered Kamp an elite pass rusher when we signed him to his last contract. Guys that find it late don't tend to keep it very long. The guys that can do it when they first step off the bus are the ones that tend to last forever.

Kamp will be 30 shortly. As an exercise to prove a point, go take a look at everybody that had 10 sacks last year. Write down all their ages. Then take a look at the year by year production of all the guys over 30. With the knowledge that you have found, would you even consider giving a contract to a 30+ pass rusher, scheme change or not.

[wist43]

Beyond that, Capers needs to get more creative on a consistent basis up front... lining up in a static 3-4 presnap look... that's not going to cut it.

One of these days I will understand exactly what you want other than success.

In passing downs (just shy of 50% so far) the Packers predominantly line up in a 2-4-5 alignment. When you eliminate the position abbreviations, looks exactly like a 4-2-5 nickel, the very defense you claim you want due to personnel. And Kampman is at end.

With standup ends, the QB has to guess which is coming, plus the option to bring another rusher from middle or corner/slot.

The defense has to give the coordinator a chance. We stopped the run well aganst the Vikes. But now we need to be able to bring pressure and not get gouged for big runs. Do that, and no one will be bleeting about alignments anymore.

I agree with you that the DC should not simply hold back and prepare for the worst case, thereby giving the offense the initiative. You must bring some pressure even if there is a chance of the runner escaping.

As for other points, Bigby not going is a bad sign. It was an early bye, but will he be right at anytime this season?

I was on the Chillar at OLB bandwagon early this offseason, but seeing him take on and be defeated by blocks inside, I do not think he could hold the edge on runs as OLB.*

* Several posters came to this conclusion WAY before I caught on. I am not claiming this as my insight.

I wanted the switch to the 3-4, and have wanted it for years... however, now that they've made the switch, it is unrealistic to think they can just shift gears seamlessly.

They had an entire defensive roster made up of 4-3 players... and average, to below average ones at that. It's delusional to think below average 4-3 players will excel in a 3-4. As I said, it's going to take time to transition.

That said, in the short term... I want to see Capers use more 4-2 pass rush sets... based mainly on the strengths of the personnel he has at his disposal. Raji would be a beast at DT in a 4 man rush, and that is where Kampman can make an impact.

As it is... Kamp is wasted, and none of the other LB's present a pass rush threat. Matthews and Jones can in time I think, but as things stand now, we're generating no pressure. No defense can be successful without generating pressure.

In the longer term... Kamp is gone next year, is Barnett up??? if he is, he's gone too... i.e. transition to 3-4 players. Gonna take time. That's why I wanted to switch 4 years ago... by now, we'd have a 3-4 roster in place, and we'd be looking to make a run.

People would have gotten mad at TT for that. Why would TT pull apart the defense and rebuild while Favre should get one for run at the SuperBowl? Just sign a few FA and patch the 4-3 for a few more years.

I think TT has wanted to get to a 3-4 for years but couldn't becasue of BF. After Bert leaves it's hard to retread your D after a 13-3 year. Last years 6-10 finally gave TT the excuse to rip the D apart.

Like you Wist, I think we should have switched to the 3-4 years ago.

He didn't do that either though - he didn't reload for Favre... he booted Wahle, Rivera, Walker, etc... I agreed with Rivera, but from the moment he came on board, he went to his youth movement, and has been on it ever since.

TT is nothing if not "win tomorrow"... as I said back when TT first arrived, "when does it all come together"??? And now that he has switched to a 3-4, we can expect 2-3 years worth of building on that side of the ball... that puts us into year, what??? 7??? of the TT regime.

As I said, I think the change was needed... but it definitely is going to take some time to get the right personnel for the scheme. We agree... the change should have come 5 years ago.

[wist43]

I wanted the switch to the 3-4, and have wanted it for years... however, now that they've made the switch, it is unrealistic to think they can just shift gears seamlessly.

They had an entire defensive roster made up of 4-3 players... and average, to below average ones at that. It's delusional to think below average 4-3 players will excel in a 3-4. As I said, it's going to take time to transition.

That said, in the short term... I want to see Capers use more 4-2 pass rush sets... based mainly on the strengths of the personnel he has at his disposal. Raji would be a beast at DT in a 4 man rush, and that is where Kampman can make an impact.

As it is... Kamp is wasted, and none of the other LB's present a pass rush threat. Matthews and Jones can in time I think, but as things stand now, we're generating no pressure. No defense can be successful without generating pressure.

In the longer term... Kamp is gone next year, is Barnett up??? if he is, he's gone too... i.e. transition to 3-4 players. Gonna take time. That's why I wanted to switch 4 years ago... by now, we'd have a 3-4 roster in place, and we'd be looking to make a run.

I don't buy this 4-3 personnel vs. 3-4 personnel. Sometimes football players are just football players and not some widget designed for on scheme or another.

Al Harris - bump-and run only guy that is too old and will fall flat on his face in a 3-4 zone scheme. I don't think so.

Pickett - Not able to play NT...yet he has been his job well.

The most common scapegoat or complaint is Kampman:

Kampman - Had 10 sacks total last year, four of the them coming in the first 3 games meaning the remainder of the season he had only 6 sacks spread out over 13 games. He has one this year in four games, which isn't that much different than most of last year. Not to mention he has 21 tackles already, which means he is on pace to annihilate his tackle total from last year.

You argument about no pressure because of the 3-4 doesn't convince me because it isn't any different than last year, same guys...same problem. IMHO, the problem isn't "4-3" guys in a "3-4" scheme.

TT himself said exactly what I'm saying... body type, 3-4 personnel, will take a couple of years to transition, etc... yes, players fit different schemes.

Kampman obviously is not a 3-4 End, or a 3-4 LB... hell of a 4-3 DE though. I think that's obvious; Barnett??? Average 4-3, Tampa 2 LB... awful 3-4 LB; Hawk??? Average at everything.

We need better players... until we get them, Capers has to find a way to make lemonade out of lemons.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

As opposed to lemonade out of oranges?

[pbmax]

Those 10 times a game that Kamp drops, vs. the 25 he rushes, are just killing his sack totals.

Kamp lost it last year. Everything from scheme, to guys around him, "double teams", etc... has been blamed for his lack of sacks.

It is time to blame Kamp. Look at his sack totals. 0.5, 2.0, 4.5, 6.5, 15.5. 12.0, 9.5, 1.0

He had 13.5 in his first 48 starts, had a great year, a very good year, and a good year. He was better earlier than later last year. It took him 4 years of work before he found his mojo, and since he found it, his #'s have been in steady decline.

Be honest, nobody seriously considered Kamp an elite pass rusher when we signed him to his last contract. Guys that find it late don't tend to keep it very long. The guys that can do it when they first step off the bus are the ones that tend to last forever.

Kamp will be 30 shortly. As an exercise to prove a point, go take a look at everybody that had 10 sacks last year. Write down all their ages. Then take a look at the year by year production of all the guys over 30. With the knowledge that you have found, would you even consider giving a contract to a 30+ pass rusher, scheme change or not.

I agree with you that he isn't an elite pass rusher. But look at your number of snaps again. If you cut his opportunity to rush by 28%, you numbers will go down, I don't care who you are.

The question the D coaches must ask is if increasing Kampman's opportunities will benefit the team more than staying true to the scheme (hard to read the fourth or fifth rusher) and costing someone else chances to rush the QB.

Chillar has been the other guy to get home. And Matthews shows promise, but he hasn't gotten home often either. Kampman might offer more, but is it enough to alter the scheme?