The Joke about Pad Level

[bobblehead]

Ok, we have all heard MM talk about "he needs to get his pad level down" but here is my gripe.

Having a low center of gravity and a low base is a natural instinctual thing. We are all built differently and we all move differently. You can't take a guy with a high base and teach him to lower his pad level and expect him to do it effectively.

Sure, Scott Wells is small, but he naturally gets under people and imposes his will. He will never be as good at it as a guy with the same natural base and is 3" taller and 30 pounds heavier, but he is always better at it than a big guy who lacks that.

I fear that if we have a ton of guys who naturally are athletic and such, but have a high base, and MM is busy trying to teach them to have a low base we are going to get our ass beat at the line for as long as he is coach and TT is GM.

Just like you cant' teach a 4.7 guy to run a 4.4, you can't teach a high strength guy to become a low strength guy. You have to find that balance, and we look pretty sucky on the line.

[pbmax]

Strength and leverage are two different things. A strong upper body guy who plays high will get run over by a player of similar stature playing with better leverage. And there is no reason a strong upper body player couldn't play low, with leverage and good technique.

But that is why everyone talks about knee bend in the draft. Even big guys need to be flexible to get low. And then they need to learn the techniques to gain and use leverage for their benefit.

But size still matters. No DB is going to bull rush a left tackle. No matter how low they go.

[Guiness]

Pad level is no joke!!!!!!!

[sharpe1027]

Re: The Joke about Pad Level

I'm pretty sure that they are not asking a 6'6" guy to get lower than a 5'10" guy. They're just asking their 6'6" guy not to stand straight up. Any coach I have heard talk on the subject has said that pretty much everything starts and ends with the legs. Upper body strength is also needed, but very much secondary.

However, I might be off-base because, honestly, I am not sure that I understand what you are talking about.

What is someone with a high base? Someone lacking sufficient athleticism to use their legs, or just someone tall? If it is the first, cut them immediately. If it is the second, they still need to keep themselves low or they lose all power.

What is someone that is a high-strength guy? Someone that lacks sufficient leg strength to push anyone other than with their arms? If so, cut them immediately.

[Guiness]

Are you talking about knee bend sharpe?

A guy with good knee bend and pad level. That's a player!

[cheesner]

When NFL OL coaches discuss getting a good low pad level as a fundamental for playing the position, I believe it is probably important. It's not like MM is the only coach who says this. Its as fundamental as wrapping up on the tackle and a WR catching the ball before looking upfield to run.

[sharpe1027]

Are you talking about knee bend sharpe?

A guy with good knee bend and pad level. That's a player!

I guess it is possible to have low pad level without knee bend, but you'd have bend at the waist and get your center of gravity out in front of your feet. Might be good for falling forward and getting a yard. Maybe they should give that a try?

[Noodle]

Pad level is not a new concept. I got it screamed in to my earhole by my psychopathic coaches back in the late 70s and early 80s.

When you get tired or sloppy or lose focus, you stop paying attention to keeping your pads low and you start playing straight up, which will get your ass beat unless you are uncommonly stout.

The concept applies to all players, regardless of where their natural "base," or center of gravity is. High CG guys need to be particularly mindful about it, but the concept applies even for the short-legged dudes.

So I get what he's saying, and in some respects, its a way of addressing a whole host of technique problems.

It just starts to wear a little thin when we keep hearing the same problem diagnosis over and over.

[Partial]

What is the ideal height for a linemen knowing that elite knee bend will only get you so low?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

What is the ideal height for a linemen knowing that elite knee bend will only get you so low?

No such thing.

[Noodle]

Interesting question about OL height. Those big hosses keep getting bigger and bigger, but here's the heights of the 2008 All-Pro OL:

Jordan Gross, T, 6ft 4 in
Michael Roos, T, 6ft 7 in
Steve Hutchinson, G, 6ft 5 in
Chris Snee, G, 6ft 4in
Kevin mawae, 6ft 4in

and the second team

Ryan Clady, T, 6ft 6 in
David Stewart, T 6ft 7 in
Walter Jones, T, 6ft 5in
Jason Peters T, 6ft 4in
David Diehl, T, 6ft 5 in
Joe Thomas, T 6ft 6in
Kris Dielman, G, 6ft 4in
Alan Faneca, G, 6ft 5in
Shaun O'Hara, C, 6ft 3in

Oldies but goodies
Orlando Pace, T, 6ft 7in
Joe Jacoby, T, 6ft 7in
John Hannah, G, 6ft 3in

So, Tackles around 6 5 to 6 7, Guards 6 4 to 6 5 and Centers 6 3 to 6 4.

[bobblehead]

You guys are all missing my point. I absolutely agree that good knee bend (which in turn gets you a lower pad level) is vital. My point is they talk about it constantly as if they can teach any old 6'6" guy to do it. YOU CAN'T!!

Its a gift to get low and have power still. Just like running a 4.4 is a gift the ability to have good knee bend and still play with athleticism is a gift. You absolutely can not teach it. So when guys get destroyed and MM says its all about pad level and we need to get that fixed I'm begging the question HOW!!!

If a speedster ran by our DB would MM say its just a matter of not being fast enough and we have to get that fixed?? Hell no, but its the same damned thing. Wells is natural leverage guy, that is why he survives at 6'2". Tauscher is a natural leverage guy, plus he is 6'5" so he was a successful tackle. DC and cliffy are agile high base guys which is why they are not good run blockers in tight quarters, but DC's agility and speed allow him to be awesome in the open field, and similar traits allow(ed) cliffy to be successful as a pass blocker.

My summary is this. If a guy doesn't have the natural instinct to get low and drive(or anchor in pass) you aren't likely to teach him to do it on a consistent basis. He might get it at times, but the natural ability and instinct will take over at times (times of fatigue mostly). So if we have guys who are having trouble with pad level for the last 4 years we need to find other guys.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You are making a false assumption. The assumption being that the players in the NFL don't have that natural ability. Wrong. The ones that don't...don't generally progress thru college and don't tend to get drafted.

And, even if we go by your theory, you have yet to show that it can't be taught. There is nothing natural about playing football...nothing instinctual..not like running.

this is another one of your ridiculous theories, like married coaches being less successful than single coaches.

[Fosco33]

I recall hearing, "outside contain" about a million times from hs coaches (I was OLB and sometimes had to make sure the dumbass DE was playing in position).

As a LB, I always heard, "keep your head up" as I was always hitting people with my crown (and at risk for injuries, etc.).

I never played on the line - but pad level is damn common and makes perfect sense (just like, "keep your feet moving" for a RB - or - "maintain your lane" for kickoff coverage).

[pbmax]

"

Its a gift to get low and have power still. Just like running a 4.4 is a gift the ability to have good knee bend and still play with athleticism is a gift. You absolutely can not teach it. So when guys get destroyed and MM says its all about pad level and we need to get that fixed I'm begging the question HOW!!!

If a speedster ran by our DB would MM say its just a matter of not being fast enough and we have to get that fixed?? Hell no, but its the same damned thing.

No, getting low, getting leverage and having a good base are not like running fast. And no one is stronger or less likely to be moved by playing high. A high center of gravity only makes you more vulnerable to getting beat. The technique is easiest to apply to interior lineman, because for a running play, you often get hit before you can truly stand up. At this point its a hand fight and shoving match. Low man usually wins.

Low man wins. That's what Line coaches always teach, same with LB coaches teaching a breakdown. There is a technique to it and bending at the waist will not help.

Some are natural at it and have no problem operating in the correct position. Some people (waist benders vs. knee benders in scouting parlance) do not come by it naturally and must learn to operate that way. Its no different than any hand technique. Gifted, large players can get away with not having it at lower levels, but will get burned by the pros. Undoubtedly, there area few pro specimens who never had to worry about it because they were gifted beyond most. But they are rare.

Walk through any high school practice field and there will be a contraption built of metal fence posts and ropes. Its like a limbo stick for lineman. There will be three to five paths (like part of an obstacle course) through the fence posts and then open space on the other side. Lineman will line up in the paths, facing the posts and rope. And if you don't want to strangle yourself, then when the coach yells "HIKE!" or blows the whistle, you shoot out real low.