Packers D now rank 3rd.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Which might make some sense if I could figure out why NYG is ranked #6 with 262.0 yards a game...

His rankings are sorted by yards given up total, not per game. Notice Washington is down the list also.

[mission]

Which might make some sense if I could figure out why NYG is ranked #6 with 262.0 yards a game...

His rankings are sorted by yards given up total, not per game. Notice Washington is down the list also.

Gotcha. 3rd overall per game is a lot more impressive to me than second in the league counting our bye week.

[Waldo]

Re: Packers D now rank 3rd.

Look, our defense shut down Peterson, as MPF said. That was GREAT. Unfortunately, that meant that BF had way too much time to throw the ball and the end result was no different than if Peterson had run for 200 yards and 3 tds...

When you begin with an incorrect assumption, it leads down the path of even more incorrectness.

The Packers did NOT overcompensate to shut down Peterson. If anything they overcompensated their pass coverage.

The Packers have 2 things going that is making it tough for any team to successfully run on them, and a 3rd is coming online.

The last game is where Clay began to transition to full time starter. Clay's pass rush is so so, but he's doing an exceptional job against the run. Mn is about as good of a matchup as you could ask for for him. Mount McKinnie is big and slow. Awesome for demolishing hand in the ground DE's lined up across from him. Terrible for blocking a quick and nimble OLB.

AD is a very good play bouncer, if the middle is clogged up, he can bounce it outside, McKinnie can blow up the DE, and the LB's that overpursued are caught inside and can't catch him to the corner in a footrace (AD tends to bounce to his left). Clay is quick enough to stay off of McKinnie on outside contain, sheds blocks well, and is every bit as fast (if not faster) as AD over a short burst. Have you not noticed that no back has successfully turned the corner on his side when he's been in there, including AD? (every big or moderate run we've given up to that side came with Pops in the game).

GB's 3-4 DL is HUGE (I'm pretty sure that we have the biggest 3-4 DL in the NFL). They anchor well and it is tough for offenses to stretch them. They don't overpenetrate and get trapped. The 3-4 alignment is naturally superior for stopping a frontside stretch-backside cut. Hawk is doing a great job block eating. The mack backer has been very, very clean since the Cincy game (when the U-71 enabled an exploit that got the mack blocked up). Running between the tackles has been virtually pointless for our opponents unless backups are in the game at DE. Our 3-4 alignment is not ceding running yards, at all, especially now that Kamp is doing a better job at outside contain. When Jolly is on he's unblockable in the run game. Pickett has kept the A gaps shut down. Jenkins is actually the weak link.

In the 2-4 set the middle of the defense has done a good job swarming. Dom is mixing up outside contain between the CB's (via coverage schemes) and OLB's, and mixing gap crashing with 2 gapping in the front in run fits.

Big Okie is stout against the run.

The Barnett of old is coming online as well now. He's playing faster and is being kept clean, and is playing more aggressive each week.

Last time the problem was easy to see, but there was no solution. There is no coverage that you can run that can completely hide a S or CB. They were dropping here and there, playing Collins close in an effort to centerfield Martin to hide him, but now matter what, unless you are in pure M2M and he's at centerfield, any decent OC will have a guy that isolates him in coverage on every single play. We were overcompensating on the underneath stuff, trying to keep plays from entering Martin's zone. Against a garbage QB with a basic read system, or stupid OC (that didn't have a good QB's eye's on the field for him) it would have worked, but Brett could see through what we were doing and just waited for the handoff to Martin's zone. I bet he had less than 100 passing yards elsewhere, and close to, if not more than, 200 to WR's in Martin's zone. By centerfielding Martin and not bringing him into the box, we were running over-under zones to keep the CB's closer for run support and underneath passing, Brett went over the top of the CB's, or to the underneath guys covered by LB's (that normally would be covered by the SS).

Eliminate the S entirely from help zones, the coverage technique changes and gets tighter, and you have an extra man to rush.

[RashanGary]

I suspect the Pack will load up the box against Peterson on first and second down. I suspect that Caper's is keeping his gameplan under wraps with his comments, but I suspect we'll see a lot more heat sent against Favre on 3rd downs.

If the OL play is stabilized, I could see us winning this game. Rodgers was lights out Sunday and I could see this continuing.

I agree. 1st and 2nd down is going to be exactly like last time and the Vikings are stubborn enough to keep trying to run it (can't blame them).

3rd and long is going to involve much more exotic blitz packages designed to get favorable 1 on 1's and/or free hits on #4.

[Smidgeon]

Re: Packers D now rank 3rd.

GB's 3-4 DL is HUGE (I'm pretty sure that we have the biggest 3-4 DL in the NFL). They anchor well and it is tough for offenses to stretch them. They don't overpenetrate and get trapped. The 3-4 alignment is naturally superior for stopping a frontside stretch-backside cut. Hawk is doing a great job block eating. The mack backer has been very, very clean since the Cincy game (when the U-71 enabled an exploit that got the mack blocked up). Running between the tackles has been virtually pointless for our opponents unless backups are in the game at DE. Our 3-4 alignment is not ceding running yards, at all, especially now that Kamp is doing a better job at outside contain. When Jolly is on he's unblockable in the run game. Pickett has kept the A gaps shut down. Jenkins is actually the weak link.

Will Raji make this line better or worse as the season progresses? In other words, is he merely a back up this year and hopefully starting to dominate next year, or does he start making an impact? Mostly a goal to go defender?

And that doesn't even mention my far-fetched hope that Justin Harrell can stay healthy next year...

[Waldo]

Re: Packers D now rank 3rd.

GB's 3-4 DL is HUGE (I'm pretty sure that we have the biggest 3-4 DL in the NFL). They anchor well and it is tough for offenses to stretch them. They don't overpenetrate and get trapped. The 3-4 alignment is naturally superior for stopping a frontside stretch-backside cut. Hawk is doing a great job block eating. The mack backer has been very, very clean since the Cincy game (when the U-71 enabled an exploit that got the mack blocked up). Running between the tackles has been virtually pointless for our opponents unless backups are in the game at DE. Our 3-4 alignment is not ceding running yards, at all, especially now that Kamp is doing a better job at outside contain. When Jolly is on he's unblockable in the run game. Pickett has kept the A gaps shut down. Jenkins is actually the weak link.

Will Raji make this line better or worse as the season progresses? In other words, is he merely a back up this year and hopefully starting to dominate next year, or does he start making an impact? Mostly a goal to go defender?

And that doesn't even mention my far-fetched hope that Justin Harrell can stay healthy next year...

Rookie defensive lineman suck against the run. Always have, always will. Even the best point men at the college level with the best natural instincts take a while to get going.

Raji was not a great run stuffer in college and is not an intuitive run stopper. He's no Justin Harrell in that respect. He was a great A gap pass rusher, strong and stout at the point, but really not a special player that way. He's got the body, with coaching he'll get down pro run play. He can win the matchups easily, that is more than half the battle. Right now he has no sense of what the OL is doing to him and and guys are hitting him from every which way, holding him (the pro way that doesn't get called). 1 on 1 with a guy across from him, the guy across from him is toast. That isn't how the run works at the pro level except pass rushing. I suspect that he's at least 2-3 years away from being a dominant 3-4 NT against the run. In a 2-4-5, he'll be viable much sooner because he is such a good interior rusher. When he plays NT though, the biggest flaw of a 3-4, the useless NT (on pass plays), is not useless with Raji on the field.

Harrell didn't start to get it down until December of his rookie year, and he was much better his second year. Justin is a much more natural run defender than Raji. Some guys can just read the blocking of the whole line intuitively and let it carry them to the ball. Justin Harrell absolutely excels at that. Raji really doesn't.

Raji is still torquing his shoulders like a college DT. Once you see him flow square to the line, instead of twisting his shoulders, then you'll know that he's taken the next step. The next step after that is to apply some torque to blow through guys to the ball as the ball gets near. We're not going to see that this season out of him I suspect.

When Jolly plays square he's darn near unstoppable. But he has lapses and lets his shoulders get easily twisted. Two years ago he had it down. Last year the whole season was a lapse for him, aside from a couple of games. This year he appears to have it down again, aside from a play here or there.

[Smidgeon]

Re: Packers D now rank 3rd.

GB's 3-4 DL is HUGE (I'm pretty sure that we have the biggest 3-4 DL in the NFL). They anchor well and it is tough for offenses to stretch them. They don't overpenetrate and get trapped. The 3-4 alignment is naturally superior for stopping a frontside stretch-backside cut. Hawk is doing a great job block eating. The mack backer has been very, very clean since the Cincy game (when the U-71 enabled an exploit that got the mack blocked up). Running between the tackles has been virtually pointless for our opponents unless backups are in the game at DE. Our 3-4 alignment is not ceding running yards, at all, especially now that Kamp is doing a better job at outside contain. When Jolly is on he's unblockable in the run game. Pickett has kept the A gaps shut down. Jenkins is actually the weak link.

Will Raji make this line better or worse as the season progresses? In other words, is he merely a back up this year and hopefully starting to dominate next year, or does he start making an impact? Mostly a goal to go defender?

And that doesn't even mention my far-fetched hope that Justin Harrell can stay healthy next year...

Harrell didn't start to get it down until December of his rookie year, and he was much better his second year. Justin is a much more natural run defender than Raji. Some guys can just read the blocking of the whole line intuitively and let it carry them to the ball. Justin Harrell absolutely excels at that. Raji really doesn't.

So Harrell still has a chance to be a player? Are injuries his only obstacle?

[Waldo]

For sure. He gets over his back injury 100% and he could easily turn into a dominant player.

He has the size and natural strength to win in a phonebooth against almost any OL, and can play through (or hold) doubles just fine. (Put 30 pounds on him, so he can conserve energy, and he'd be a great fit at NT).

He'll never be that dominant DT that is in the backfield on every play. That isn't his game. His game is to be blocked, and still prevent the RB from getting past him on darn near every play. He's the kind of lineman that doesn't need linebackers behind him. But he doesn't do it the T-2 UT way by shooting gaps. He's a 2 gapper that stays back, lets the play develop, then stops it.

Justin is exactly what you look for in a 3-4 LDE.

If I had to choose between a 100% healthy Harrell and a 100% healthy Raji.....it would be a tough choice. Justin is the better run defender, Raji the better pass rusher.

[Smidgeon]

For sure. He gets over his back injury 100% and he could easily turn into a dominant player.

He has the size and natural strength to win in a phonebooth against almost any OL, and can play through (or hold) doubles just fine. (Put 30 pounds on him, so he can conserve energy, and he'd be a great fit at NT).

He'll never be that dominant DT that is in the backfield on every play. That isn't his game. His game is to be blocked, and still prevent the RB from getting past him on darn near every play. He's the kind of lineman that doesn't need linebackers behind him. But he doesn't do it the T-2 UT way by shooting gaps. He's a 2 gapper that stays back, lets the play develop, then stops it.

Justin is exactly what you look for in a 3-4 LDE.

If I had to choose between a 100% healthy Harrell and a 100% healthy Raji.....it would be a tough choice. Justin is the better run defender, Raji the better pass rusher.

Sounds like the pairing of Raji and Harrell (providing injuries are overcome) could make for a long term dominating line. Of course, that's why they were both first round picks.

Just think, if Harrell can recover and turn into a player, the front 7 would have 5 GB first round picks (Matthews, Hawk, Barnett, Raji, Harrell). I imagine that's a bit above league average...

[HarveyWallbangers]

That's the big problem. IF Harrell stays healthy. It's a long shot.

[Smidgeon]

Granted it's a long shot. But at least it isn't Mandarich bust territory.

[Partial]

Has there been any updates on his health since going on IR? Is he in need of more surgery? What the heck is wrong with his back that all of these surgeries are not fixing the problem? I certainly would not be playing ball if my back is hosed. More to life than football.

[Smidgeon]

Re: Packers D now rank 3rd.

Raji is still torquing his shoulders like a college DT. Once you see him flow square to the line, instead of twisting his shoulders, then you'll know that he's taken the next step. The next step after that is to apply some torque to blow through guys to the ball as the ball gets near. We're not going to see that this season out of him I suspect.

When Jolly plays square he's darn near unstoppable. But he has lapses and lets his shoulders get easily twisted. Two years ago he had it down. Last year the whole season was a lapse for him, aside from a couple of games. This year he appears to have it down again, aside from a play here or there.

So is the idea for the DL to keep their shoulders parallel to the line of scrimmage or squared towards the ball? I would assume the former, but I'd rather ask to make sure.

P.S. Waldo, thanks for your 3-4 analysis in your blog back when. I learned a lot about a scheme with which I was utterly unfamiliar and the responsibilities within that scheme.

[CaptainKickass]

WTF?

How the hell did y'all let an intelligent, packer oriented football discussion break out in this forum of high drama?

Ooops, sorry, wrong forum my bad.






(In case you take the above too seriously...i suggest you look up the word "Sarcasm")

[sharpe1027]

Has there been any updates on his health since going on IR? Is he in need of more surgery? What the heck is wrong with his back that all of these surgeries are not fixing the problem? I certainly would not be playing ball if my back is hosed. More to life than football.

Back surgery often doesn't fix the underlying problem, leading to recurrence of the problem. Some studies suggest physical rehab is just as good or better than surgery in the long run. It is certainly cheaper and safer.