Packers D now rank 3rd.

[bobblehead]

yea, not counting harrell out, but certainly not counting on him.

what waldo said about DL taking a bit to get it at the pro level bears out again and again. A lot of guys seem to "flip the switch" in year 2 or 3. Pickett was considered a bust (in the way Hawk is a "bust") coming from St. Louis, but how many packer fans would trade him now?

[MichiganPackerFan]

WTF?

How the hell did y'all let an intelligent, packer oriented football discussion break out in this forum of high drama?

Newbie. We'll corrupt him sooner or later. No one can resist our power.

(Seriously: nice discussion, keep it comin'!)

[Waldo]

Granted it's a long shot. But at least it isn't Mandarich bust territory.

Mandarich couldn't play, even when he was healthy.

Justin when healthy, has had young lineman growing pains, but was ahead of the curve and looked very, very good at doing some things. Lineman, especially high picks, are always evaluated on their sack numbers by a majority of fans and analysts. That isn't Justin's game unfortunately, so he's a hard sell.

I've always been at a loss comparing him to another player in the league. There literally is nobody like him. A bigger, stronger Ty Warren perhaps. He's a skinny mobile NT. Lacking the heavy mass, he couldn't play NT and sustain it for multiple games. The trade off in that regard is you get a guy that can very reliably 2 gap 1 on 1 or when single + chip blocked, that has the mobility, instincts, and power, to ride a guy down a gap, or even two, out of his responsibility, that is also mobile enough to break off the blocking and chase a play to the edge. His pass rush, while nothing special, is a pocket collapsing push, be he can get to an evading QB, and does give more rush than most NT's.

When you look at his measurements, you can see his game. Overall he's not a very explosive athlete, nor fast. Relative to guys his size he's fast enough but not more, but he's much faster than the guys he plays like (big NT's). He has good agility and balance though. But he is strong as heck, and it isn't "weight room strength". Plus he has a very large and long frame.

Raji is so different. Raji is freakishly explosive and fast for his size, but no faster than Justin. Far more explosive. But he's not as strong and powerful as Justin. For Raji to destroy the guy in front of him, it comes from the initial pop out of his stance, or he gets moving, lowers his pads, and explodes through a guy. Justin doesn't/can't do that. He's much more apt to toss the guy in front of him aside like a rag doll while engaged, or carry the guy in front of him along and toss him into the back (he's done both in the pros). Raji though has a lot of natural leverage that Justin doesn't have and has a heck of a natural anchor, being a bottom heavy athlete.

[Waldo]

yea, not counting harrell out, but certainly not counting on him.

what waldo said about DL taking a bit to get it at the pro level bears out again and again. A lot of guys seem to "flip the switch" in year 2 or 3. Pickett was considered a bust (in the way Hawk is a "bust") coming from St. Louis, but how many packer fans would trade him now?

Of the 3 best and most pro ready run defenders to come out this decade, Wilfork, Hampton, and Ngata, none of the 3 were really much more than decent by the end of their rookie years. All of them started slow.

Raji was a step below them in run ability on draft day. But he was a better pass rusher than all of them.

Vince is definitely the most similar player to Raji in the league. There are a lot of similarities to their games. Both are built very similar, though I'd take Raji's raw athletic talent, his measurements, over Vince any day, though Vince has a little longer arms.

[Smidgeon]

Granted it's a long shot. But at least it isn't Mandarich bust territory.

I've always been at a loss comparing him to another player in the league. There literally is nobody like him. A bigger, stronger Ty Warren perhaps. He's a skinny mobile NT. Lacking the heavy mass, he couldn't play NT and sustain it for multiple games. The trade off in that regard is you get a guy that can very reliably 2 gap 1 on 1 or when single + chip blocked, that has the mobility, instincts, and power, to ride a guy down a gap, or even two, out of his responsibility, that is also mobile enough to break off the blocking and chase a play to the edge. His pass rush, while nothing special, is a pocket collapsing push, be he can get to an evading QB, and does give more rush than most NT's.

When you look at his measurements, you can see his game. Overall he's not a very explosive athlete, nor fast. Relative to guys his size he's fast enough but not more, but he's much faster than the guys he plays like (big NT's). He has good agility and balance though. But he is strong as heck, and it isn't "weight room strength". Plus he has a very large and long frame.

So despite the frustration voiced by fans (mostly due to the injuries and inability to stay on the field) and the pundits who claimed this was a reach pick in Round 1 (despite reports a couple other teams were targeting him in the same area), what you're saying is that JH has the talent and skill to be worth that pick if his health wasn't a factor?