wolf and holgren available?

[pbmax]

i wasn't looking at those two guys as being the coach, i was thinking GM for wolf and holmgren

Right, because Holmgren was such a great GM. It was him and not TT who built up the talent in Seattle...

Look, I'm not too happy about the loss either. I'm upset. I think heads will roll, be it M3, Campen, a couple of the D players, maybe an OLineman or two, but I seriously doubt TT. He has turned the team talent around after M2 undermined it as GM. I think something that has to be kept in mind (and I posted the stats in the 'Aaron is the highest rated QB in the NFL' thread) is that it is rare for even the best QBs in the history of the game to produce winning seasons either of their first two years as significant starters. Ending with a losing record this year isn't an indictment on AR or the team, although I'm really starting to lose faith in M3 and starting to daydream about other available coaches. But I very much sincerely believe in split GM-coach duties, and I think at the very least, we have one of the best draft talent evaluators for a GM. The rest of his game could be better, but at least he's not Snyder or Al Davis.

i know its not a popular thought around here

but Holmgren was the one that built that super bowl team of theres. TT came in as gm in 2003 after holmgren had built the major core of that team. holmgren was gm from 99-until the end of 2002. he drafted or traded for most of the major players they had

Ted was never GM or defacto GM. Holmgren held the title and power. When they demoted Holmgren they were criticized for acting too slowly and allowing Thompson to leave for Green Bay. They then hired Ruskell from Atlanta (or Tampa Bay) to be GM.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

i wasn't looking at those two guys as being the coach, i was thinking GM for wolf and holmgren

Right, because Holmgren was such a great GM. It was him and not TT who built up the talent in Seattle...

Look, I'm not too happy about the loss either. I'm upset. I think heads will roll, be it M3, Campen, a couple of the D players, maybe an OLineman or two, but I seriously doubt TT. He has turned the team talent around after M2 undermined it as GM. I think something that has to be kept in mind (and I posted the stats in the 'Aaron is the highest rated QB in the NFL' thread) is that it is rare for even the best QBs in the history of the game to produce winning seasons either of their first two years as significant starters. Ending with a losing record this year isn't an indictment on AR or the team, although I'm really starting to lose faith in M3 and starting to daydream about other available coaches. But I very much sincerely believe in split GM-coach duties, and I think at the very least, we have one of the best draft talent evaluators for a GM. The rest of his game could be better, but at least he's not Snyder or Al Davis.

i know its not a popular thought around here

but Holmgren was the one that built that super bowl team of theres. TT came in as gm in 2003 after holmgren had built the major core of that team. holmgren was gm from 99-until the end of 2002. he drafted or traded for most of the major players they had

Factually incorrect. Completely ignoring TT's role with the Hawks.

[red]

i wasn't looking at those two guys as being the coach, i was thinking GM for wolf and holmgren

Right, because Holmgren was such a great GM. It was him and not TT who built up the talent in Seattle...

Look, I'm not too happy about the loss either. I'm upset. I think heads will roll, be it M3, Campen, a couple of the D players, maybe an OLineman or two, but I seriously doubt TT. He has turned the team talent around after M2 undermined it as GM. I think something that has to be kept in mind (and I posted the stats in the 'Aaron is the highest rated QB in the NFL' thread) is that it is rare for even the best QBs in the history of the game to produce winning seasons either of their first two years as significant starters. Ending with a losing record this year isn't an indictment on AR or the team, although I'm really starting to lose faith in M3 and starting to daydream about other available coaches. But I very much sincerely believe in split GM-coach duties, and I think at the very least, we have one of the best draft talent evaluators for a GM. The rest of his game could be better, but at least he's not Snyder or Al Davis.

i know its not a popular thought around here

but Holmgren was the one that built that super bowl team of theres. TT came in as gm in 2003 after holmgren had built the major core of that team. holmgren was gm from 99-until the end of 2002. he drafted or traded for most of the major players they had

Ted was never GM or defacto GM. Holmgren held the title and power. When they demoted Holmgren they were criticized for acting too slowly and allowing Thompson to leave for Green Bay. They then hired Ruskell from Atlanta (or Tampa Bay) to be GM.

thats right, TT was vp of football operations while mike was GM

how do people think tt built that team with holmgren being gm and head coach?

[pbmax]

i wasn't looking at those two guys as being the coach, i was thinking GM for wolf and holmgren

Right, because Holmgren was such a great GM. It was him and not TT who built up the talent in Seattle...

Look, I'm not too happy about the loss either. I'm upset. I think heads will roll, be it M3, Campen, a couple of the D players, maybe an OLineman or two, but I seriously doubt TT. He has turned the team talent around after M2 undermined it as GM. I think something that has to be kept in mind (and I posted the stats in the 'Aaron is the highest rated QB in the NFL' thread) is that it is rare for even the best QBs in the history of the game to produce winning seasons either of their first two years as significant starters. Ending with a losing record this year isn't an indictment on AR or the team, although I'm really starting to lose faith in M3 and starting to daydream about other available coaches. But I very much sincerely believe in split GM-coach duties, and I think at the very least, we have one of the best draft talent evaluators for a GM. The rest of his game could be better, but at least he's not Snyder or Al Davis.

i know its not a popular thought around here

but Holmgren was the one that built that super bowl team of theres. TT came in as gm in 2003 after holmgren had built the major core of that team. holmgren was gm from 99-until the end of 2002. he drafted or traded for most of the major players they had

Ted was never GM or defacto GM. Holmgren held the title and power. When they demoted Holmgren they were criticized for acting too slowly and allowing Thompson to leave for Green Bay. They then hired Ruskell from Atlanta (or Tampa Bay) to be GM.

thats right, TT was vp of football operations while mike was GM

how do people think tt built that team with holmgren being gm and head coach?

Ted was in charge of the pro and college scouts and the draft. Holmgren had final call, but T2 put the work and recommendation to him.

[Fritz]

I'm as sick of the losing and the penalties and sacks and special teams fiascos as anyone, but bringing Homgren and or Wolf back is NOT the answer. That's lame, outdated thinking.

Anybody remember the 70's and 80's? Hey, let's bring back some old stars to coach the team! From our glory years! They'll turn it around!

Thus we had the Starr and Gregg misery years.

Ron Wolf wasn't someone else's GM that Green Bay stole. He was a personnel guy in NY and Oakland. When he was hired as GM in Green Bay he didn't look for some old coach who'd won a Super Bowl five years ago - he went out and found a young up and coming guy.

That's what TT tried to do and it ain't working, but I don't think just going back to an old name will work either. Holmgren wasn't exactly the toast of the town when he left Seattle.

I also think it is dangerous and unworkable to give one man two jobs. Shermy couldn't do it, nor could Holmgren.

If MM goes, where's the assistant who would be a great coach?

And by the way, I've been wondering...what if TT had hired Jim Bates instead of MM?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I'm as sick of the losing and the penalties and sacks and special teams fiascos as anyone, but bringing Homgren and or Wolf back is NOT the answer. That's lame, outdated thinking.

Anybody remember the 70's and 80's? Hey, let's bring back some old stars to coach the team! From our glory years! They'll turn it around!

Thus we had the Starr and Gregg misery years.

Ron Wolf wasn't someone else's GM that Green Bay stole. He was a personnel guy in NY and Oakland. When he was hired as GM in Green Bay he didn't look for some old coach who'd won a Super Bowl five years ago - he went out and found a young up and coming guy.

That's what TT tried to do and it ain't working, but I don't think just going back to an old name will work either. Holmgren wasn't exactly the toast of the town when he left Seattle.

I also think it is dangerous and unworkable to give one man two jobs. Shermy couldn't do it, nor could Holmgren.

If MM goes, where's the assistant who would be a great coach?

And by the way, I've been wondering...what if TT had hired Jim Bates instead of MM?

Fritz,

Wolf was not just some personnel guy. He was VP of Op for TB. Pretending that Wolf was some unknown guy or some guy who was "undiscovered" is playing dumb.

P.S. You wanna win, get another member of the tribe. No accident that Wolf excelled.

[Smidgeon]

And by the way, I've been wondering...what if TT had hired Jim Bates instead of MM?

My opinion:

1) The D would be solid, but not spectacular and people would be calling for a new D just to shake things up.
2) AR wouldn't even be a stats guy let alone a bright future QB. He'd be yet another Tedford QB (this alone might be M3's saving grace).
3) Matthews and Raji may not be in GB (and I truly think they both have very, very bright futures).
4) The O would be unimaginative. Completely. Which would have people calling for a new O just to shake things up.

Like I said: opinions.

[Fritz]

I'm as sick of the losing and the penalties and sacks and special teams fiascos as anyone, but bringing Homgren and or Wolf back is NOT the answer. That's lame, outdated thinking.

Anybody remember the 70's and 80's? Hey, let's bring back some old stars to coach the team! From our glory years! They'll turn it around!

Thus we had the Starr and Gregg misery years.

Ron Wolf wasn't someone else's GM that Green Bay stole. He was a personnel guy in NY and Oakland. When he was hired as GM in Green Bay he didn't look for some old coach who'd won a Super Bowl five years ago - he went out and found a young up and coming guy.

That's what TT tried to do and it ain't working, but I don't think just going back to an old name will work either. Holmgren wasn't exactly the toast of the town when he left Seattle.

I also think it is dangerous and unworkable to give one man two jobs. Shermy couldn't do it, nor could Holmgren.

If MM goes, where's the assistant who would be a great coach?

And by the way, I've been wondering...what if TT had hired Jim Bates instead of MM?

Fritz,

Wolf was not just some personnel guy. He was VP of Op for TB. Pretending that Wolf was some unknown guy or some guy who was "undiscovered" is playing dumb.

P.S. You wanna win, get another member of the tribe. No accident that Wolf excelled.

His Tampa job was from 75-79. He was a personnel guy AFTER Tampa, both in NY and Oakland. So in essence he took lesser jobs after being VP of Operations in Tampa. He wasn't the big hot GM in either or his last two stops before joining Green Bay.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I'm as sick of the losing and the penalties and sacks and special teams fiascos as anyone, but bringing Homgren and or Wolf back is NOT the answer. That's lame, outdated thinking.

Anybody remember the 70's and 80's? Hey, let's bring back some old stars to coach the team! From our glory years! They'll turn it around!

Thus we had the Starr and Gregg misery years.

Ron Wolf wasn't someone else's GM that Green Bay stole. He was a personnel guy in NY and Oakland. When he was hired as GM in Green Bay he didn't look for some old coach who'd won a Super Bowl five years ago - he went out and found a young up and coming guy.

That's what TT tried to do and it ain't working, but I don't think just going back to an old name will work either. Holmgren wasn't exactly the toast of the town when he left Seattle.

I also think it is dangerous and unworkable to give one man two jobs. Shermy couldn't do it, nor could Holmgren.

If MM goes, where's the assistant who would be a great coach?

And by the way, I've been wondering...what if TT had hired Jim Bates instead of MM?

Fritz,

Wolf was not just some personnel guy. He was VP of Op for TB. Pretending that Wolf was some unknown guy or some guy who was "undiscovered" is playing dumb.

P.S. You wanna win, get another member of the tribe. No accident that Wolf excelled.

His Tampa job was from 75-79. He was a personnel guy AFTER Tampa, both in NY and Oakland. So in essence he took lesser jobs after being VP of Operations in Tampa. He wasn't the big hot GM in either or his last two stops before joining Green Bay.

He was IN CHARGE of personnel. The fact is that he wasn't some guy who nobody knew about. And, with Al in Oakland, titles mean nothing. You gotta look at what he did, not his title. Al is always the GM. His position with Oakland wasn't a lesser job..unless you are someone who gets hung up on titles. Plus, Wolf is a comfort level guy. He had to be in a position that he felt he could work in.

Again, Wolf was a LONG ESTABLISHED guy in the league when we came a courting.

[Fritz]

Two things: if he was so well established and desirable, why was he working in a place where he wasn't the GM?

Secondly, you seem to be performing the same trick you often accuse others of performing: switching the argument when you get called out. Uh, he wasn't the GM in title, but that doesn't mean he wasn't the GM?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Two things: if he was so well established and desirable, why was he working in a place where he wasn't the GM?

Secondly, you seem to be performing the same trick you often accuse others of performing: switching the argument when you get called out. Uh, he wasn't the GM in title, but that doesn't mean he wasn't the GM?

1. You are assuming that GM is the end all position. Who knows why he was with the Jets. Maybe, after VP he didn't want a GM position..he wanted the VP title? Who knows. I'm just saying that within the football circles, Wolf was WAY known.

2. No. You have misinterpreted. I'm not saying he was GM with the Oakland...only that his title didnt' dictate function or responsibility or value or place in the firmament in the football heavens. Remember, Oakland when he was there was a HIGHLY desirable team. You had an innovative owner, you had great teams...very successful, etc. And, you had a GREAT relationship tween owner/gm (al is listed as GM) and Wolf.

After working with Culverhouse he may have realized how good it was working for Al...i know, hard to imagine these days, but back then Al was truly still on top of his game.

I could also speculate that it may have been a good fit for him culturally. Not many other jewish owners. Not by accident that a jew was the first to hire a minority coach/latino in Flores. The first to name a black head coach in Shell.