Pinpointing the Problem

[Fritz]

After yesterday's heartrending loss, I have been reevaluating my perspective. I really did think this team had the talent to win the division or at least get into the playoffs and do some damage.

However, I watched yesterday's game and felt like I was watching the clownish Forrest Gregg teams of yesteryear. Special teams a sieve, the offense completely out of sync, the defense crumbling at key moments.

So beyond the simplistic "fire everyone right now," the bigger question is this: is the central problem a lack or talent or a lack of good coaching - or both? Is this a talented but sorely underachieving team, or did many people (myself included) overestimate the talent on the roster?

Finding the correct answer to that question is crucial to this team's future. If this team really does have talent but continues to stumble (and I see no signs any more that this will not be the case), then MM needs to go at the end of the year. I would start by firing Campen and Slocum, today, but ultimately it's the head coach's responsibility. Now, TT hired the guy so it's on him, but if he has in fact provided the talent to win, he'll probably get a mulligan and get to fire MM and pick another coach.

If however the correct answer is that this roster is just not talented enough no matter who's the coach, then TT's job ought to be in jeopardy. This is his fifth year - practically forever in the NFL - and if he hasn't gotten the talent through the pipeline by now, well, maybe the end of the season will be time for him to go. IF it's not just the coaching, it would appear that he's butchered the offensive line and to some degree the running back position as well.

We'll see, I suppose. Before yesterday I still felt like this was a good team, a 10-6 team, but after yesterday's circus, I feel like this team is making zero progress. Maybe it's not fixable, or maybe it's fixable but MM ain't the guy to do it.

What do you all think?

[hurleyfan]

I think it's a combination of Lack of Talent, AND lack of good coaching..

TT built Seattle to a "competetive" level but they maxed out, as one of the constant younger teams in the league.. TT leaves Seattle, 2 years later they go to the big dance...

MM brought these coaches, and after the complete revamp on the defensive side last year, we're stuck with the same old lack of execution on the O-Line..Some of the problems might have to do with talent, but Sherman had pretty good O lines with a ifferent set of coaches. And had Clifton & Tauscher (of course they are now 5 years older)

[swede]

Fritz, I would agree, +1.

To me, the unknown is Mark Murphy. Does he have the balls to fire TT?

IMO TT had his chance and showed himself to be a good fiscal manager and a poor judge of coaching talent.

Next.

[pbmax]

I am still at darkest before the dawn stage. But the numerous preventable mistakes; penalties, sacks, and bad special teams plays have been repeated far too often to just dismiss. They have to fall on the coach.

The Packers held the ball for 10 minutes longer on offense and gained 120 more net yards. But their own mistakes killed their chances. I think its up to the coach to stop mistakes from happening. The only good sign is that they had 5 penalties for the first time this year I think.

[cheesner]

I am still at darkest before the dawn stage. But the numerous preventable mistakes; penalties, sacks, and bad special teams plays have been repeated far too often to just dismiss. They have to fall on the coach.

The Packers held the ball for 10 minutes longer on offense and gained 120 more net yards. But their own mistakes killed their chances. I think its up to the coach to stop mistakes from happening. The only good sign is that they had 5 penalties for the first time this year I think.

I am with you.

The players are not very disciplined. This falls right on MM's shoulders, and then TT's if he allows it to continue. There are coaches in the NFL who are doing much better with much less. I like MM's style, but he has not progressed as a coach IMHO. Personally, I don't think they practice correctly. Make em do it over and over until perfection becomes a habit.

[g4orce]

I think its the chicken and the egg scenario. Is it bad coaching thats not allowing the full talent of this team to come out, or is it the lack of talent that is hindering our coaches from doing what they want to do scheme wise?


My personal take is that we are missing good/great talent in too many key areas. I also think youth is great, but too much youth and its bad. There has to be a good mixture. Its sort of like a good high school team, a team that has a few good seniors, a few good juniors, a few good sophomores and maybe 1 or 2 good freshman usually is better than an all senior team or an all sophomore team. Just how it usually pans out.


I think McCarthy is one hell of an offensive coach. His track record with offense cannot be denied. Hell he got great stats outta Aaron Brooks who I think its a POS of a QB. But he also needs to teach Arod to be a winner. Sometimes you just gotta dig deep, find whatever it is inside you that says, I'm not losing this game no matter what you do to me. So far, he whizzes down his leg when the balls in his hands in the 4th qrt and the team looking at him to do something. Some of this has to be put on MM too for not helping a young QB thru this.

Coaches that need to go IMO: Oline coach, Special teams coach, and the dumbass GM who still has pieces of trash like Jarret Bush on this football team.

[Scott Campbell]

Sometimes you just gotta dig deep, find whatever it is inside you that says, I'm not losing this game no matter what you do to me.

Inspirational words to live by.

[g4orce]

Sometimes you just gotta dig deep, find whatever it is inside you that says, I'm not losing this game no matter what you do to me.

Inspirational words to live by.

Thank you.

[pbmax]

Is it bad coaching thats not allowing the full talent of this team to come out, or is it the lack of talent that is hindering our coaches from doing what they want to do scheme wise?

It takes no specific level of talent for the FB Kuhn on the punt team to remember who to block. And coverage units are similar. Stay in your lane, keep the returner from cutting your line and force him towards help. Other than running, no specific talent required.

[hoosier]

I have liked McCarthy since the day he took over, and even after last season's disappointment I was pretty confident he would turn it around this year. But after watching yesterday's game I find myself on the other side of the fence. The dumb penalties that never get corrected. The lack of consistency on special teams, which carries over from Stock (at least in 2008) to Slocum. The inability to put together a functional offensive line. The strange play calling, which was especially noticeable yesterady as the Packers were having great success running the ball but then, when they have a first down on the TB seven yard line, they inexplicably go shotgun on 1st and 2nd down. The results are incompletion, sack and a dump off on third and long.

In his postgame comments yesterday McCarthy had a cryptic comment in response to a question about the pass protection comments:

The other part of it too, I thought he had plenty of time to throw. I'm real curious to see the film because either they're doing a hell of a job covering us. There is time and time again that our receivers, on crossing routes versus that coverage, I'll be curious to see what the film looks like.

. Is he discretely pointing the finger at Rodgers here, suggesting that ARod needs to start taking more risks with the short passing game instead of holding onto it indefinitely? (ARod certainly took plenty of risks yesterday, like the long pass to a triple-covered Jennings on first down in TB territory...)

My sad conclusion is that McCarthy's team is in its fourth year and is still showing itself to be an undisciplined group that does not work well together. The playcalling, especially the refusal to stick with the running game even when it is working very well, is just icing on the cake. Or mustard on the crap sandwich.

EDIT: Another big disappointment this year has been McCarthy's seeming inability to get Rodgers to recognize what is not working--to emphasize the short passing game more and to avoid holding onto the ball for an eternity. McCarthy has a reputation for being a QB guru, and he always compliments Rodgers on being a very coachable QB. So why is he appearing to regress in terms of his ability to see the field and make quick but smart decisions?

[Scott Campbell]

It takes no specific level of talent for the FB Kuhn on the punt team to remember who to block. And coverage units are similar. Stay in your lane, keep the returner from cutting your line and force him towards help. Other than running, no specific talent required.

I thought that play might be a sign of things to come yesterday. It seemed like the Bucs should have gotten a flag for having 19 men on the field.

It's hard to blame Kapinos, but if I saw that many guys coming at me, I'd have taken a knee.

[g4orce]

Is it bad coaching thats not allowing the full talent of this team to come out, or is it the lack of talent that is hindering our coaches from doing what they want to do scheme wise?

It takes no specific level of talent for the FB Kuhn on the punt team to remember who to block. And coverage units are similar. Stay in your lane, keep the returner from cutting your line and force him towards help. Other than running, no specific talent required.

True, but maybe they are "dumb" football players. Some players just always know where to be on the field and maybe we just don't have those type of players.

[Pugger]

The difference in the game yesterday was special teams. Tampa blocks a punt for one score and has 2 big returns for 2 more TDs. Sad day all around. It will be interesting to see what happens if this team continues to flounder like this the rest of the season...

[Scott Campbell]

The difference in the game yesterday was special teams. Tampa blocks a punt for one score and has 2 big returns for 2 more TDs. Sad day all around. It will be interesting to see what happens if this team continues to flounder like this the rest of the season...

You're right of course, but we should have been good enough to overcome that. This is a bad Tampa team with a Rookie QB getting his first start - who I thought played really well. I'm every bit as disappointed in the O and the D as I am with the special teams.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I would say that this team is poorly coached in several areas:

Campen needs to go. OL is a mess.
Slocum needs to go. ST is a mess.
Rushing needs to go. He's in charge of offensive quality control. He's failed.

Philbin needs to start calling the plays. MM's calling these deep passes which call for Rodgers to hold onto the ball too long, but with our OL there should not be this many of them.