Bills grab Brohm off the practice squad

[pbmax]

another blown high draft pick

2005: Rodgers (1), Collins (2), Murphy (2)
2006: Hawk (1), Colledge (2), Jennings (2)
2007: Harrell (1), Jackson (2)
2008: Nelson (2), Brohm (2), Lee (2)
2009: Raji (1), Matthews (1)

So far we know that Brohm was a bust. Murphy and almost certainly Harrell didn't work out because of injuries. Lee seems to be a good bet to bust or to be unable to stay healthy, or both. Rodgers and Jennings are stars and maybe even more. Matthews seems to be headed in that direction too. Collins and Hawk are at least solid starters, potentially more.

I think TT's record on high draft picks is better than Wolf's. Only two busts in five drafts (I am not including Harrell) is a pretty good average.

We drafted an Harrell knowing he had injury concerns. I'd undoubtedly considerer him a bust. Lee maybe and Brosh deserve the spots too. Nelson was drafted ahead of better WR's. Jackson IMO too high.

With all that said I'd agree so far TT's record is decent and better than Wolf's on high picks. He's a good drafter.....not good enough to ingore free agency the last few years though

Come on Bretsky, its fine to consider Harrell a bust. But don't tell us that bicep and ankle injuries are precursors to back troubles.

[retailguy]

But don't tell us that bicep and ankle injuries are precursors to back troubles.

Not precursors to back trouble, but warnings that the guy couldn't stay healthy. He played one complete college year, was banged up the rest of them. You can't predict back trouble, but there were warnings PB, significant warnings...

[Partial]

Now they've got a few years saved up, they can operate well over the cap, which they are this year.

Vikes are not over the cap. I've seen numbers of approx $15-18M avail for next year(assuming a similar cap). Also, they are still pushing money forward, they did still last year and are planning to this year. Expect to hear extensions for a Henderson or Leber in late Dec.

Waldo means that a substantial portion of the cap money available to the Vikings to spend this year came from previous years pushing forward unspent cap money. He is not saying the Vikings are over the cap in the strict CBA sense.

So when the Vikings or Packers sign the punter to a $4 million dollar bonus that will payout if he will participates in 20% of the offensive snaps, it counts against the cap as a Likely To Be Earned Incentive THIS YEAR. When the punter invariably does not participate in 20% of the offensive snaps, that $4 million dollar cap charge gets refunded into NEXT year's cap. This forwarded money, accumulated over several years, is what Waldo believes made the Jared Allen signing possible. The Eagles and Vikings were the earliest adopters of this tactic as a regular maneuver.

So they have 10 mil in cap room, sign this punter to that contract, in theory they would have 14 mil the next year?

BTW, PB you're like the all-knowing grandfather of the forum. Just a wise mofo. I wouldn't mess with you.

[pbmax]

Now they've got a few years saved up, they can operate well over the cap, which they are this year.

Vikes are not over the cap. I've seen numbers of approx $15-18M avail for next year(assuming a similar cap). Also, they are still pushing money forward, they did still last year and are planning to this year. Expect to hear extensions for a Henderson or Leber in late Dec.

Waldo means that a substantial portion of the cap money available to the Vikings to spend this year came from previous years pushing forward unspent cap money. He is not saying the Vikings are over the cap in the strict CBA sense.

So when the Vikings or Packers sign the punter to a $4 million dollar bonus that will payout if he will participates in 20% of the offensive snaps, it counts against the cap as a Likely To Be Earned Incentive THIS YEAR. When the punter invariably does not participate in 20% of the offensive snaps, that $4 million dollar cap charge gets refunded into NEXT year's cap. This forwarded money, accumulated over several years, is what Waldo believes made the Jared Allen signing possible. The Eagles and Vikings were the earliest adopters of this tactic as a regular maneuver.

So they have 10 mil in cap room, sign this punter to that contract, in theory they would have 14 mil the next year?

BTW, PB you're like the all-knowing grandfather of the forum. Just a wise mofo. I wouldn't mess with you.

Yes, but its over two years. in Year one they sign the punter to the incentive and reduce their cap number (usually in November/early December) from $5 million to $1 million., Money they would not have used anyway. Then in year 2, where you expected $10 million in cap room, after LTBE (likely to be earned) incentives are calculated, they get back the $4 mill for a total of $14 million in space in Year 2.

And that is very kind of you Partial, but if I know anything of significance, its likely been explained to me on this forum. If we could all keep from pissing each other off for a while, you would all be surprised at what you learn.

For instance, I think Waldo has me on a point of logic. If the Packers committed to total rebuilding on the fly in 2005 and had dumped some combo (or renegotiated) Favre, KGB and Clifton around 2005 or 2006, they could have had even more substantial cap space to push into future years. And this may have been enough to buy the rare franchise player like Jared Allen. As a matter of logic, this could have been done.

Yet while the Vikings did something similar with Moss and Culpepper, Favre and Clifton were not under performing their contracts by much, if at all. Culpepper was injured and Moss was being Moss. And T2 never asked KGB to reduce his salary after he lost the starting job to Jenkins. This to me are signs that T2 never intended to operate this way. And he needed to come up with two other offensive line options in a non-Jared Allen manner.

[Smidgeon]

But don't tell us that bicep and ankle injuries are precursors to back troubles.

Not precursors to back trouble, but warnings that the guy couldn't stay healthy. He played one complete college year, was banged up the rest of them. You can't predict back trouble, but there were warnings PB, significant warnings...

Peterson had significant warnings in college too. If injuries had popped up with him, everyone would be saying "I told you so". Since Harrell's back is unrelated to his college injuries, don't even try to tell me "I told you so" because you didn't know. You had a guess. Kind of like teams and fans had a guess about Peterson. Well, that guess was right about Harrell and wrong about Peterson. But it doesn't mean the pick was a bust for that reason.

[Partial]

That said, don't you think they still could have afforded Allen? I never thought the money was an issue. I just thought they weren't interested in paying the large sum of money, the arsenal of picks, etc for a guy who missed 4 games of his last year in KC for partying too hard.

I get that it's an example, but the Pack have been in great shape financially. There is some monkey business with the cap that I don't understand, but I guess I don't see how it's super relevant given the amount of cap room we have currently.

To me, one of the reasons the rebuilding was kind of screwed up from the start was because Favre kept the team competitive outside of 2005 and limited their number of high draft picks. Guys like Peterson aren't available in the twenties.

To me, and I could be way off, the difference between the Pack and Vikings is we ended up with at best, so far, an above average player in Hawk when we had the shot to hit gold. They hit it out of the park and ended up with a super star with their shot in the top 10

[Zool]

Or maybe Peterson gets drafted by GB and gets a fluke injury in training camp. Gotta start looking forward instead of back.

[Partial]

Or maybe Peterson gets drafted by GB and gets a fluke injury in training camp. Gotta start looking forward instead of back.

Oh I'm looking forward. I think this years draft is shaping up to be very good. Clay Matthews is going to be a star.

[Packnut]

Waldo, here are some snippets.

Bill Cowher

In Cowher’s 15 seasons, the Steelers captured eight division titles, earned ten postseason playoff berths, played in 21 playoff games, advanced to six AFC Championship games and made two Super Bowl appearances. He is one of only six coaches in NFL history to claim at least seven division titles.

Sure, they did the things you said, but they also had a ton of talent throughout the Cowher years and have had continued success under Tomlin. I don't think you can look at our time since TT has been here and say it's comparable or there is any indication we'll get to that level.



Eagles:

The Eagles have been to 5 conference championships in 9 years and the divisional round of the playoffs or better 6 times. All signs do not point to replicating this success.


What say you?

I understand the history quite well.

I'm not nearly as down on our roster as you are you know. We can hang with and beat any team in the NFL.

We dump our crappy DC, and add a couple of rookies, and now our defense is a top 5 unit? Which was the problem, talent or coaching? Sanders NEVER had these guys playing this good, and they are still learning the scheme.

A team with a legit QB is a legit threat to win any game it plays.

We have the combination that leads to a lot of wins, Explosive passing, useable running game, legit QB, shutdown defense.

For someone with a wealth of knowledge when it comes to x's and o's, you sure post some dumb shit when it comes to defending Teddy. Comparing what this clown has down in GB to other organizations like Pitt and Indy is down-right STUPIDITY.

Football offense 101 states you must be able to RUN THE BALL AND PROTECT YOUR QB. In YEAR 5, Thompson's team DOES NIETHER. And please don't start quoting me stats cause we both know stats can be mis-leading. Let's base this on what we've seen this season.

Those other organizations did what Teddy cannot do and that is find medium round offensive linemen who are DEPENDABLE. In other words, they won't consistently blow guys off the line, but neither will they have brain cramps and forget their blocking assignment. Nor will they whiff on a block and stand by to watch their QB get drilled or forget the snap count on a key drive.

Also may-be you should go back year by year in those other organizations and look at picks in rounds 1-4 and see how many of those picks became wasted and compare it to Teddy's stellar record. I think you would be surprised.

One last thought. You paint a rosy picture for the next "cycle" as you call it. Your boy has done NOTHING to replace the most important position on the O-line. Clifton is at the end of his career and we have NO ONE who we can trust to protect the franchise QB's blind side. For someone as football smart as you, failing to recognize this EPIC Thompson blunder is just a damn shame...........

[pbmax]

Comparing what this clown has down in GB to other organizations like Pitt and Indy is down-right STUPIDITY.

Football offense 101 states you must be able to RUN THE BALL AND PROTECT YOUR QB.

First off, knock off the personal insults. Just stop. They don't help. At all. Anyone reading thinks less of the argument as soon as they read it.

Second, the 2006 Super Bowl champion Indianapolis Colts would like to talk to you about running the ball and stopping the run as necessities to winning football. Both the Colts and the Steelers have had trouble with their O lines and trouble running the ball. They are bad examples for your case. Manning can run a pass only attack as can Roethlisberger. Manning does it by dissecting a defense quicker than any other QB with the possible exception of Brees. And Roethlisberger because no matter how much he gets hit, he is so big he can still stand in the pocket and get the throws off.

The current problem with the Packers is that Rodgers is neither that big nor that fast (yet).

[sharpe1027]

For someone with a wealth of knowledge when it comes to x's and o's, you sure post some dumb shit when it comes to defending Teddy. Comparing what this clown has down in GB to other organizations like Pitt and Indy is down-right STUPIDITY.

Football offense 101 states you must be able to RUN THE BALL AND PROTECT YOUR QB. In YEAR 5, Thompson's team DOES NIETHER. And please don't start quoting me stats cause we both know stats can be mis-leading. Let's base this on what we've seen this season.

Those other organizations did what Teddy cannot do and that is find medium round offensive linemen who are DEPENDABLE. In other words, they won't consistently blow guys off the line, but neither will they have brain cramps and forget their blocking assignment. Nor will they whiff on a block and stand by to watch their QB get drilled or forget the snap count on a key drive.

Also may-be you should go back year by year in those other organizations and look at picks in rounds 1-4 and see how many of those picks became wasted and compare it to Teddy's stellar record. I think you would be surprised.

One last thought. You paint a rosy picture for the next "cycle" as you call it. Your boy has done NOTHING to replace the most important position on the O-line. Clifton is at the end of his career and we have NO ONE who we can trust to protect the franchise QB's blind side. For someone as football smart as you, failing to recognize this EPIC Thompson blunder is just a damn shame...........

Saying it LOUDER and calling others STUPID killed any logic you might have had for me. Your tone comes off as such a jackass, I lost track of your point before the first paragraph ended. Just my opinion.

[Brandon494]

For someone with a wealth of knowledge when it comes to x's and o's, you sure post some dumb shit when it comes to defending Teddy. Comparing what this clown has down in GB to other organizations like Pitt and Indy is down-right STUPIDITY.

Football offense 101 states you must be able to RUN THE BALL AND PROTECT YOUR QB. In YEAR 5, Thompson's team DOES NIETHER. And please don't start quoting me stats cause we both know stats can be mis-leading. Let's base this on what we've seen this season.

Those other organizations did what Teddy cannot do and that is find medium round offensive linemen who are DEPENDABLE. In other words, they won't consistently blow guys off the line, but neither will they have brain cramps and forget their blocking assignment. Nor will they whiff on a block and stand by to watch their QB get drilled or forget the snap count on a key drive.

Also may-be you should go back year by year in those other organizations and look at picks in rounds 1-4 and see how many of those picks became wasted and compare it to Teddy's stellar record. I think you would be surprised.

One last thought. You paint a rosy picture for the next "cycle" as you call it. Your boy has done NOTHING to replace the most important position on the O-line. Clifton is at the end of his career and we have NO ONE who we can trust to protect the franchise QB's blind side. For someone as football smart as you, failing to recognize this EPIC Thompson blunder is just a damn shame...........

Saying it LOUDER and calling others STUPID killed any logic you might have had for me. Your tone comes off as such a jackass, I lost track of your point before the first paragraph ended. Just my opinion.

+1

[Smidgeon]

For someone with a wealth of knowledge when it comes to x's and o's, you sure post some dumb shit when it comes to defending Teddy. Comparing what this clown has down in GB to other organizations like Pitt and Indy is down-right STUPIDITY.

I'm not sure I've ever read one of your posts before, since I'm new-ish to the forum, but this starting paragraph absolutely undermines any chance that I'll take anything you say as unbiased. If you want to rant, go ahead and rant.

Football offense 101 states you must be able to RUN THE BALL AND PROTECT YOUR QB. In YEAR 5, Thompson's team DOES NIETHER. And please don't start quoting me stats cause we both know stats can be mis-leading. Let's base this on what we've seen this season.

Yes, stats can be misleading, but they can also be completely accurate. Here are some stats that say your assessment is off base. Oh yeah, except for the first point, they're all from this season, like you suggested:

* The Steelers were 4th in the league in most sacks last year and WON THE SUPER BOWL!
* The Packers running attack is 12th in yards and 13th in TDs, which are both better than the 49ers, a team that is known for their successful running game
* In terms of stopping the run, the Packers are 4th in fewest yards allowed and 3rd in fewest TDs allowed
* Just so you know, the GB running game is better than both Pittsburgh's and Indy's
* You know how many teams with a top 10 running offense have one of the 10 best records in the NFL? 2. You know how many top 10 passing offenses have one of the 10 best records in the NFL? 7.

Running doesn't win championships anymore. Passing and defense does.

Those other organizations did what Teddy cannot do and that is find medium round offensive linemen who are DEPENDABLE. In other words, they won't consistently blow guys off the line, but neither will they have brain cramps and forget their blocking assignment. Nor will they whiff on a block and stand by to watch their QB get drilled or forget the snap count on a key drive.

I think this is legitimate, to an extent. How do you know it isn't a fault of the coaches for failing to develop these picks? And have you watched any of Indy's games? Their O-line isn't close to all-pro. The difference is between the QBs: Peyton gets rid of the ball quickly, no matter what. AR isn't a bad QB, he just isn't that experienced yet.

Also may-be you should go back year by year in those other organizations and look at picks in rounds 1-4 and see how many of those picks became wasted and compare it to Teddy's stellar record. I think you would be surprised.

So instead of making these brash statements, why don't you pull out some statistics and prove just how bad TT's record is in comparison?

One last thought. You paint a rosy picture for the next "cycle" as you call it. Your boy has done NOTHING to replace the most important position on the O-line. Clifton is at the end of his career and we have NO ONE who we can trust to protect the franchise QB's blind side. For someone as football smart as you, failing to recognize this EPIC Thompson blunder is just a damn shame...........

Epic? Hardly. Done nothing? How do you know? Nothing came to fruition, but that doesn't mean he hasn't looked under every rock for a replacement. Clifton was supposedly as healthy as ever after his offseason injuries. Meredith was supposed to be developed into that replacement, but didn't pan out. Rumor had it that he would have taken Smith if the Bengals hadn't.

[Waldo]

Football offense 101 states you must be able to RUN THE BALL AND PROTECT YOUR QB. In YEAR 5, Thompson's team DOES NIETHER. And please don't start quoting me stats cause we both know stats can be mis-leading. Let's base this on what we've seen this season.

Run the ball. LOL, why don't you go back to 1990, note the rank of the run O, pass O, run D, and pass D of every team that makes it to the SB. Tell me again how important running the ball is?

Our running game is fine anyway, above average by virtually every measure.

Again there is not much correlation between # of sacks and postseason success. There is typically a correlation between passer rating or YPA and sacks, and there is a correlation between rating or YPA and postseason success, but those QB's that can maintain a high rating and YPA despite inflated sack numbers tend to be just as successful in the postseason as their peers with a similar rating/YPA that take fewer sacks. The effectiveness of the passing game is what matters, not the number of sacks, which is only a part of the equation that makes up the effectiveness of the passing game.

Those other organizations did what Teddy cannot do and that is find medium round offensive linemen who are DEPENDABLE. In other words, they won't consistently blow guys off the line, but neither will they have brain cramps and forget their blocking assignment. Nor will they whiff on a block and stand by to watch their QB get drilled or forget the snap count on a key drive.

Aaron is the problem more often than not when it comes to the free rushers. There are plays where the QB has to account for the free rusher. All blocking schemes block inside out, if a free rusher is going to come based on available #'s, the blockers got it right if the free rusher comes from the edge on the hot side. Which they have been. Problem is Aaron hasn't recognized it (or cared), thrown it hot, and his WR's haven't adjusted hot.

We had a backup LT for a long time. MM and his staff decided this year that enough was enough, end the musical chairs and make him a full time G. There are consequences to that COACHING decision. I never met another person on any MB anywhere that was not dead set against the end to musical chairs thing like I was. I recognized this problem in camp. Ted didn't create this problem.

He supplied a mid range LT prospect to MM (Colledge), every bit the player on draft day that Matt Light was for the Pats, but more athletic, however very similar traits to their game and physical measurements, very similar physically to Jordan Gross.

Did Ted decide to keep Giacomini over Meredith? Did Ted decide to give almost no practice snaps to Meredith. Meredith is currently starting at RT and hands down outplaying Barbre. In his 3 starts he's given up 1 sack. Is that Teds fault?

We drafted on of the better RT's in the 2008 draft. A little short, but only an inch or so. Real similar build to our last RT, a hair taller and a bunch more athletic. He's now our starting RG, and has been a RG from day 1. Sitton would be a fine RT if he moved over, he is superior to Tausher in virtually every respect. Why not play Lang at RG and Sitton at RT? That option was seemingly never even approached, yet it is probably our best alignment given our people.

Of course one of our most experienced and dependable lineman that Ted has drafted is on IR. Lets just ignore that fact though. It makes your argument better.

Do you not find it curious that guys that couldn't make our team are starters or backups elsewhere on the OL? Why is that?

MM, Philbin, and Campen have a real problem with choosing what a guy should play, and coaching him to fit that role. And they have done a very poor job with the gameday active backups, especially this year. The backup LT situation is squarely on MM and his staff's head. If "musical chairs" was such a problem, Colledge should have become a full time backup T, and somebody else (Barbre or Lang) the starting LG. Ending all practice snaps for your backup LT, and putting him on a mass gaining program that saps the athleticism that made him a T, is just plain idiotic.

Also may-be you should go back year by year in those other organizations and look at picks in rounds 1-4 and see how many of those picks became wasted and compare it to Teddy's stellar record. I think you would be surprised.

And Ted has clearly outperformed them in the 6th round. Big picture here. Talent comes from everywhere. Why limit the set to rounds 1-4. Ah, it makes your argument better (not really though if you cared to check). You fail to grasp the macro view. All GM's that has been in place for a full roster cycle that gets zero free agents will each draft the exact same number of starters and backups as every other GM in the same situation, regardless of how many draft picks they have. Only 53 guys can make the cut. If you draft (or sign as an UDFA) 250 guys over a 10 year period, 53 of them make your team; your success rate is 21.2%. Draft (or sign as a UDFA) 125 guys over a 10 year period, 53 of them still make your team. Now your success rate is 42.4%. Do you understand this concept?

Grading a GM by his success in rounds X is a pointless endeavor. For virtually every high player taken that didn't work out, TT got a later player that did, at the same position, either via the draft, waiver wire, minor trade, or as an UDFA.

Murphy-J Jones
Underwood-Bigby
Hodge-Bishop
Harrell-Jolly and Wynn
Jackson-Grant
Rouse-Martin/Giordano (very weak)
Thompson-B Jones
Brohm-Flynn
Lee-Williams and Underwood
etc...

If you use the line that TT sucks in the higher rounds, and grade him based on that, using success rate, you've got to consider him an absolute genius with late rounds and UDFAs, using the same method.

How many TT draft picks, in his time with GB, are not currently on an active roster (or IR) in the NFL, that didn't have career ending injuries. All that trading down, stockpiling. If the word is that he sucks and his picks don't work out, one would expect that his guys that get away are out of the NFL. Well, I'll leave it up to you to go do that research, then again, you already know the answer.

Why is it that our PS is one of the most pilfered in the NFL? Every year a guy or two is stolen, or somebody tries to steal them. Surely a sign that TT sucks, and that he has no eye for talent.

Of the two dozen or so players claimed yearly after camp cuts, why is it that GB has some of its cuts claimed every year, typically a couple? Obviously a sign that TT sucks and has no eye for talent.

I would wager good money, that since TT took over in GB, the combination of GB cuts that were claimed on waivers and guys taken from our practice squad is at least in the top 3 in the NFL over that span, most likely #1.

One last thought. You paint a rosy picture for the next "cycle" as you call it. Your boy has done NOTHING to replace the most important position on the O-line. Clifton is at the end of his career and we have NO ONE who we can trust to protect the franchise QB's blind side. For someone as football smart as you, failing to recognize this EPIC Thompson blunder is just a damn shame...........

Really, why don't we look at all the college LT's that TT has drafted (or acquired as an UDFA) in GB:

Colledge
Moll
Thompson
Barbre
Lang
Meredith

An average of more than 1 per year in his time as GM. He's obviously done nothing to address the issue. As the need has now grown much greater now, I'm sure that we will see something on the FA front or a high draft pick, as opposed to trying to find a good one using later picks (thought the guy that had been the backup the whole time was TT's 2nd pick in the McCarthy era (obviously nobody saw this as important, right?). But go ahead and be a chicken little, we're doomed, this will never be fixed...

Clifton stays healthy, Mac keeps Meredith over Breno, is this an issue?

[Scott Campbell]

For someone with a wealth of knowledge when it comes to x's and o's, you sure post some dumb shit when it comes to defending Teddy. Comparing what this clown has down in GB to other organizations like Pitt and Indy is down-right STUPIDITY.

Football offense 101 states you must be able to RUN THE BALL AND PROTECT YOUR QB. In YEAR 5, Thompson's team DOES NIETHER. And please don't start quoting me stats cause we both know stats can be mis-leading. Let's base this on what we've seen this season.

Those other organizations did what Teddy cannot do and that is find medium round offensive linemen who are DEPENDABLE. In other words, they won't consistently blow guys off the line, but neither will they have brain cramps and forget their blocking assignment. Nor will they whiff on a block and stand by to watch their QB get drilled or forget the snap count on a key drive.

Also may-be you should go back year by year in those other organizations and look at picks in rounds 1-4 and see how many of those picks became wasted and compare it to Teddy's stellar record. I think you would be surprised.

One last thought. You paint a rosy picture for the next "cycle" as you call it. Your boy has done NOTHING to replace the most important position on the O-line. Clifton is at the end of his career and we have NO ONE who we can trust to protect the franchise QB's blind side. For someone as football smart as you, failing to recognize this EPIC Thompson blunder is just a damn shame...........

Saying it LOUDER and calling others STUPID killed any logic you might have had for me. Your tone comes off as such a jackass, I lost track of your point before the first paragraph ended. Just my opinion.

Normally I'd chip in here, but you guys have it pretty well covered. Thanks.