Offensive Line Theory #245

[Maxie the Taxi]

My 2009 Draft Wish List had Larry English on top...

But I like Ted's actual choices a whole lot better.

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:06 pm Post subject:

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1A Larry English, DE, N. Illinois

1B Brandon Pettigrew, TE, Oklahoma State

2A Tyson Jackson, DE, LSU

2B Robert Ayers, OLB, Tennessee

3A Connor Barwin, OLB, Cincinnati

3B Ron Brace, NG, Boston College

4A Chase Coffman, TE, Missouri

4B David Veikune, OLB, Hawaii

5A Robert Brewster, OT, Ball State

5B Greg Peach, DE, Eastern Washington

[pbmax]

To build a line then, what kind of trade offs are you willing to make? Need the power over everything? Less ideal prospects can be a little bigger, especially at G, and don't need to be as athletic. Need the athleticism? You'll have to sacrifice size if you can't get your hands on an ideal prospect.

This is preceisely where I would suspect the change to show up. If McCarthy had requested larger or more powerful (though I have never seen it attributed to him by quote), then the lineman (esp. drafted later) will be missing some other attribute. If they are moving away from ZBS, then I would expect the agility/althletic numbers to come down or be of slightly less importance.

The last two years Ted has gotten his hands on two guys very close to the overall OL ideal. Sitton and Lang's arms are a little short, and each is a hair short, but that is about it. Both have the size and the athleticism. It just so happens that they came from small schools and were a little overlooked. Sitton was invited to nothing, neither the combine nor any of the all star games.

Can you post the numbers for Ted's O Line draft picks for comparison's sake?

[Fritz]

If Thompson would pay more attention to the Packerrats, he would also be comparing the size of various players' cojones.

[MichiganPackerFan]

If Thompson would pay more attention to the Packerrats, he would also be comparing the size of various players' cojones.

Please do not invite the opportunity for Skin to post related "art".

[Mazzin]

Ted has taken some top athletes that weren't good football players and I'm really disappointed in that. Hopefully he can focus a little more on just taking guys who kick ass on the field. They tend to be good athletes anyway.

I'll say this,

All good football players are good football players

Not all good athletes are good football players



At times, playmakers will come available. No need to take trash because your blinded in yoru search for treasure. If you keep grabbing good/great college players, the NFL playmakers will hit along the way.

So I'm confused, are all good football players good athletes?

[MJZiggy]

If Thompson would pay more attention to the Packerrats, he would also be comparing the size of various players' cojones.

That's MY job!!

Thank you.

[pbmax]

Ted has taken some top athletes that weren't good football players and I'm really disappointed in that. Hopefully he can focus a little more on just taking guys who kick ass on the field. They tend to be good athletes anyway.

I'll say this,

All good football players are good football players

Not all good athletes are good football players



At times, playmakers will come available. No need to take trash because your blinded in yoru search for treasure. If you keep grabbing good/great college players, the NFL playmakers will hit along the way.

Jason White, Chris Weinke and Matt Leinart would like to take issue with the former statement. Antonio Gates takes issue with the latter.

[mraynrand]

I'll say this,

All good football players are good football players

A is A

[Partial]

Waldo I don't recall you being high on Orakpo before. As a matter of fact I recall you being low on him. Now you have him as number one?

[Waldo]

The last two years Ted has gotten his hands on two guys very close to the overall OL ideal. Sitton and Lang's arms are a little short, and each is a hair short, but that is about it. Both have the size and the athleticism. It just so happens that they came from small schools and were a little overlooked. Sitton was invited to nothing, neither the combine nor any of the all star games.

Can you post the numbers for Ted's O Line draft picks for comparison's sake?

Ht, WT, 40, 10, Reps, Shuttle, 3 Cone

Colledge.....6'4", 299, 5.05, 1.71, 21, 4.60, 7.46
Spitz..........6'3", 313, 5.40, 1.82, 25, 4.56, 7.82
Moll............6'5", 308, 5.10, Unk, 18, Unk, Unk (I've seen Moll's 3C and SS before, they were close to DC's. He was a TE at one time).
Barbre........6'4", 305, 4.86, 1.72, 28, 4.63, 7.40
Sitton.........6'4", 319, 5.20, Unk, 28, 4.50, 7.55
Gicomini......6'7", 303, 5.20, 1.72, 23, 4.63, 7.56
Lang...........6'4", 314, 5.15, 1.75, 30, 4.42, Unk (with a shuttle like that you've got to assume his cone is quite good too)
Meredith......6'5", 304, 4.99, 1.69, 31, 4.82, 8.01 (a Hodge-like prospect, fell several rounds beyond where projected, doesn't have TT typical #'s).

For comparison's sake:
Jason Smith........6'5", 309, 5.09, 1.75, 33, 4.59, 7.53
Eugene Monroe....6'5", 309, 5.18, 1.75, 23, 4.79, 7.86
Joe Thomas........6'6", 311, 4.92, 1.75, 28, 4.88, 7.95
Ryan Clady.........6'6", 309, 5.18, 1.81, 24, 4.73, 7.07
Jake Long...........6'7", 313, 5.22, 1.75, 37, 4.73, 7.44
Steve Hutchinson.6'5", 315, 5.15, 1.77, 31, 4.74, 7.82
Phil Loadholt.......6'8", 332, 5.49, 1.75, 26, 4.77, 8.18
Alex Mack...........6'4", 307, 5.17, 1.75, 20, 4.75, 7.31

[Waldo]

Waldo I don't recall you being high on Orakpo before. As a matter of fact I recall you being low on him. Now you have him as number one?

I personally was not high on him because he reportedly was said to look poor in linebacker drills (stiff), and was incredibly injury prone. His workout #'s back up his college production though, unlike many of the other top rushers.

If you combine workout #'s with college tape and production, Orakpo is the top of the class, though Maybin is right at his heels. Brown had the tape and production, but really bombed the explosion drills, to the point to losing a round because of it.

I should have said "a numbers based drafter" instead of "I".

I've been told two other key pieces of information that caused me to drop Maybin off my radar late. Ted drafts team captains, especially high in the draft, he highly values players with leadership qualities, and Ted dislikes taking underclassmen high. Rodgers and Jackson are the only two underclassmen that Ted has taken in the top two rounds, and I believe that every player but Jackson that he's taken in the top 2 rounds was a team captain. Maybin was neither a senior nor a team captain.

[bobblehead]

1a. Game tape
1b. Coaches and peers praise
1c. Character (all different types of good guys, but not lazy or a criminal)






2. Combine numbers





If you find great players that are praised high and low by those who coached them and played against them, the measurables have a funny way of working out.

You may think so, but Ted doesn't.

Raji has one of the highest size:speed ratios of any DT to come out this decade (T Harris and K Williams are slightly higher)

Matthews ran one of the fastest 10 yd splits ever clocked for a 240+ lb person, at any position. Incidentally, Ted did draft the fastest 230+ lb person ever clocked, Deshawn Wynn.

Allen Barbre's combine workout was legendary good.

I picked out Lang as TT's target a month before the draft, simply with his workout #'s.

Ted has never taken a CB shorter than 6'0", or one that ran >4.49.

Nick Collins is one of the fastest S's in the league. Rouse was an almost physical clone of Taylor Mays, though about .05 sec to .1 sec slower.

Ted took the 2nd fastest WR in the 2007 draft, Clowney, who was nothing more than a number on a stopwatch, he had no route running or catching ability.

Almost every elite RB that had size (210+) since the start of the combine ran less than 1.53 in their 10 yd split. Ted has never drafted a RB slower.

At DE, Ted likes long arms. Monty's are some the longest in the league. Wynn's aren't too far off, Jeremy Thompson's are freakishly long as well.

Thomson, B. Jones, and Matthews, every rusher TT has drafted (Jason Hunter too) has been crazy fast, even as rushers go.

.......

I didn't key onto this until it was pointed out that Ted is a #'s drafter by Michael Lombardi. Sure enough. He clearly values tape, but Ted RARELY takes guys with mediocre #'s, he'll reach for good #'s before he grabs what is viewed to be great value but bad numbers. The really notable poor #'s guy that Ted took that was all tape was Abdul Hodge. When you really dig in to the numbers and compare them to other players taken in the drafts over Ted's GB tenure, it is shocking how often the best player at this or that is a Packer. Best 3C out of a linebacker last year....he's now our starting LOLB.

Face it, Ted is a lot closer to Crazy Al in draft philospohy than people care to believe.

Great post waldo...I mean this in the nicest way, but you must have no life. To dig all this up, or know it is insane, and I respect your football knowledge all the more.

BTW, I think the first couple years TT focused on football players to build depth, but now he wants more homeruns and is focusing on athletes. I may be wrong, but that is my impression.

[pbmax]

The last two years Ted has gotten his hands on two guys very close to the overall OL ideal. Sitton and Lang's arms are a little short, and each is a hair short, but that is about it. Both have the size and the athleticism. It just so happens that they came from small schools and were a little overlooked. Sitton was invited to nothing, neither the combine nor any of the all star games.

Can you post the numbers for Ted's O Line draft picks for comparison's sake?

Ht, WT, 40, 10, Reps, Shuttle, 3 Cone

Colledge.....6'4", 299, 5.05, 1.71, 21, 4.60, 7.46
Spitz..........6'3", 313, 5.40, 1.82, 25, 4.56, 7.82
Moll............6'5", 308, 5.10, Unk, 18, Unk, Unk (I've seen Moll's 3C and SS before, they were close to DC's. He was a TE at one time).
Barbre........6'4", 305, 4.86, 1.72, 28, 4.63, 7.40
Sitton.........6'4", 319, 5.20, Unk, 28, 4.50, 7.55
Gicomini......6'7", 303, 5.20, 1.72, 23, 4.63, 7.56
Lang...........6'4", 314, 5.15, 1.75, 30, 4.42, Unk (with a shuttle like that you've got to assume his cone is quite good too)
Meredith......6'5", 304, 4.99, 1.69, 31, 4.82, 8.01 (a Hodge-like prospect, fell several rounds beyond where projected, doesn't have TT typical #'s).

For comparison's sake:
Jason Smith........6'5", 309, 5.09, 1.75, 33, 4.59, 7.53
Eugene Monroe....6'5", 309, 5.18, 1.75, 23, 4.79, 7.86
Joe Thomas........6'6", 311, 4.92, 1.75, 28, 4.88, 7.95
Ryan Clady.........6'6", 309, 5.18, 1.81, 24, 4.73, 7.07
Jake Long...........6'7", 313, 5.22, 1.75, 37, 4.73, 7.44
Steve Hutchinson.6'5", 315, 5.15, 1.77, 31, 4.74, 7.82
Phil Loadholt.......6'8", 332, 5.49, 1.75, 26, 4.77, 8.18
Alex Mack...........6'4", 307, 5.17, 1.75, 20, 4.75, 7.31

Phenomenal, thanks Waldo. Can I suggest we avoid repetitions under 28 and shuttle over 4.5?

I think KYPack also keeps some combine numbers, maybe he has something for Moll. Oddly, the two things Lang and Sitton have over the other candidates would seem to be slightly at odds with each other (reps and shuttle).

Meredith seems very similar to Loadholt, except faster. Wonder why they thought LT right away?

[KYPack]

Any combine numbers I dig up were googled. I used to look at college talent a lot. Now I read the draft sharpies like Harv, Waldo, Bretsky, on PackerRats.

I comment on the college players I see on local TV or in bowl's. I really thought Brohm would be a big thing, fer instance.

Seriously, a lot of the posters on here have better draft stuff than the major draft sites.

[Waldo]

Phenomenal, thanks Waldo. Can I suggest we avoid repetitions under 28 and shuttle over 4.5?

I think KYPack also keeps some combine numbers, maybe he has something for Moll. Oddly, the two things Lang and Sitton have over the other candidates would seem to be slightly at odds with each other (reps and shuttle).

Meredith seems very similar to Loadholt, except faster. Wonder why they thought LT right away?

You can see though why I said that TT isn't necessarily looking for different body types. If it was decided that we need mass and to emphasize that more, obviously something would have to suffer relative to the guys we were taking, and that thing would be athleticism. But that simply isn't the case. When presented with two prospects of equal athleticism, but a size difference, all else being equal only an idiot would take the little guy.

I've always said that it is a huge misconception that the ZBS looks for little guys. No, all schemes are looking 5 of those perfect guys like Jason Smith. The reality is those guys are extremely scarce, the trade offs made will determine the look of the line. ZBS teams value the athleticism, and will sacrifice size in a less than perfect prospect. You can't just go into a draft and pull out 5 Josh Sittons or TJ Langs. If things fall right you'll get the chance to draft one every year-every other year without significant reaches, if you are willing to dig hard and ignore some of the draft dogma, and trust your coaches. Or spend premium picks.

Meredith is a garbage run blocker. He's one of those guys that could play RT, but he would just be a pass blocker and add little to the run game. He lacks that thing that Lang exhibits, where he wants to beat up the guy across from him on every play.