Field Position: Important or Not

[Maxie the Taxi]

I hear McStubby talk about field position all the time. Plus, yardage; negative yardage.

I don't really understand how they keep track of it.

First of all, does anyone know if statistics are kept on field position?

Years ago field position was everything and the the good teams were the ones who could manage the game so they always had the advantage in field position.

That's why they rushed the ball alot, I think.

It seems the West Coast offense put a premium on field position too.

The question is: Is field position all that critical now?

It seems with the high-powered offenses, wide open downfield passing game and strategy designed to encourage "explosive" plays, coaches nowadays don't place that much emphasis on field position.

What do you think?

[The Leaper]

Field position always has been extremely important in football...and always will be.

It is always easier to go 50 yards for a TD than 99.

However, field position will be more critical in a game where the weather elements play a role. In a dome, field position is slightly less important.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I know McStubby keeps statistics on field position.

Do you know how he keeps them and if they are available somewhere on the internet to compare team-to-team?

[BallHawk]

I know McStubby keeps statistics on field position.

Do you know how he keeps them and if they are available somewhere on the internet to compare team-to-team?

With the way this team plays special teams, he'd be smart to keep those stats locked up far away from the internet's reach.

[hoosier]

I know McStubby keeps statistics on field position.

Do you know how he keeps them and if they are available somewhere on the internet to compare team-to-team?

This has been discussed recently in another thread.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?t=19550

As far as I know Football Outsiders has the most accessible statistics on average offensive and defensive starting field position.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I know McStubby keeps statistics on field position.

Do you know how he keeps them and if they are available somewhere on the internet to compare team-to-team?

This has been discussed recently in another thread.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?t=19550

As far as I know Football Outsiders has the most accessible statistics on average offensive and defensive starting field position.

Thanks. I'll check it out.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Hoosier,

I copied the below quote from another website (http://gnb.scout.com/2/928616.html?refid=400):

-- The Packers enjoyed a whopping 206-yard edge in field position, with drives starting at the Bears’ 15-, 8- and 1-yard line. Plus, the Packers took a knee after taking over at the Bears’ 11 in the final minute.

This is specifically the stat I'm talking about. I've heard McCarthy talk about it in post-game press conferences too. As I recall, Stubby often talks about how the Pack was so many yards in minus field position or plus so many yards compared to the opponent.

Such a statistic tells more about a team's overall performance -- especially defense performance -- than average starting field position after kickoffs which is based on special teams.

I assume it's computed by adding up one team's starting field position throughout the game and then subtracting the other team's starting field position throughout the game -- or something like that.

Do you know how exactly it's computed?

Do you know if anybody keeps and compares such a statistic week-to-week for the entire NFL?

[hoosier]

Hoosier,

I copied the below quote from another website (http://gnb.scout.com/2/928616.html?refid=400):

-- The Packers enjoyed a whopping 206-yard edge in field position, with drives starting at the Bears’ 15-, 8- and 1-yard line. Plus, the Packers took a knee after taking over at the Bears’ 11 in the final minute.

This is specifically the stat I'm talking about. I've heard McCarthy talk about it in post-game press conferences too. As I recall, Stubby often talks about how the Pack was so many yards in minus field position or plus so many yards compared to the opponent.

Such a statistic tells more about a team's overall performance -- especially defense performance -- than average starting field position after kickoffs which is based on special teams.

I assume it's computed by adding up one team's starting field position throughout the game and then subtracting the other team's starting field position throughout the game -- or something like that.

Do you know how exactly it's computed?

Do you know if anybody keeps and compares such a statistic week-to-week for the entire NFL?

The Packers did not have any drives beginning on Chicago's 15, 8 or 1 yard line. I have no idea where the article you're quoting is getting that information--but clearly the author(s) did not watch the game or even do any careful research (complete play by play is easily available at nfl.com). So what is your question, again? How is starting field position differential determined? Preumably in the way you're suggesting, though the figure this article arrives at is clearly wrong if the author really thinks the Packers had three drives starting out in the red zone.

[pbmax]

Yeah, that is a weird reading of the drive chart. The best starting field position were at the Chicago 10, 11 and 39 yard lines.

[Waldo]

This all goes into the hidden yards of football, yards not reported and nearly impossible to compute in a reasonable amount of time for comparisons sake. You could compute it for a game, but to do a full season, or a full league/full season, is near a full time job.

But it doesn't have to be. The way they report stats makes it extremely difficult to get this info from NFL.com. If they added some key stats it would be possible to do. However you can calculate this by going line by line through the play by play game logs.

The hidden yards in football:

Kickoffs = Σ(Starting point - 20)
Punts = Σ(40 - Opp Punt Gross + Return yards - Penalty yards - Nullifed return yards)
Turnovers = Σ(Int return yards + Fumble Return Yards - Penalty yards)
Penalties = Σ(-Nullified play yards - Penalty yards) <- Only applies to post snap penalties that do not stop the play, but negate the play (O holding, O PI)

Hidden Yds Total = Kickoffs + Punts + Turnovers + Penalties
Net Hidden Yds = Hidden Yds Total - Opp Hidden Yds Total

In other Words:
Net Hidden Yds = ((Σ(Starting point - 20)) + (Σ(40 - Opp Punt Gross + Return yards - Penalty yards - Nullifed return yards)) + (Σ(Int return yards + Fumble Return Yards - Penalty yards)) + (Σ(-Nullified play yards - Penalty yards))) - Opp((Σ(Starting point - 20)) + (Σ(40 - Opp Punt Gross + Return yards - Penalty yards - Nullifed return yards)) + (Σ(Int return yards + Fumble Return Yards - Penalty yards)) + (Σ(-Nullified play yards - Penalty yards)))

Obviously the arbitrary 20 and 40 used for punt and KO's cancel when calculating it for a whole game (both teams), but this should capture all hidden yards not reported as O or D. In addition adding in presnap penalties (false start/alignment/procedure) and post play penalties (Personal fouls, D PI), all yards in a game should be captured, between O, D, and Hidden Yards.

[pbmax]

Here is how scout.com did it. I have no idea if McCarthy does this the same way.

Green Bay Starting Drive Field Position:

GB 38, GB 37, CHI 39, GB 39, GB 34, GB 40, GB 25, GB 25, CHI 11, GB 12, GB 28, CHI 10

Need to account for 100 yard possible distance to go, but 50 yard record keeping increments (Team X Side of the Field). We could convert all the yardage points to be yards to go to the end zone (GB 20 would mean 80 yards to opposing goalline), but then we need to adjust each possession on the Green Bay side of the field. Let's just adjust the yardage on Chicago side of the field to match the Green Bay side of the field (Chi 20 becomes GB 80, etc.)

GB 38, GB 37, GB 61, GB 39, GB 34, GB 40, GB 25, GB 25, GB 89, GB 12, GB 28, GB 90

Add them up and that would give you the total starting field position: 518 (should surprise no one that 518/12 = 43.17 avg start of drive)

Twelve Possessions gives a maximum yards to go of 12*100= 1200

1200-518 = 682 Total Yards to Go to Goalline for Green Bay

******

Bears: CHI 20, CHI 25, CHI 28, CHI 27, CHI 20, CHI 30, CHI 44, CHI 20, CHI 27, CHI 30, CHI 32, CHI 9

no possessions in GB territory so Total Starting Field Position: 312 on 12 possessions (12*100) means:

Total Yards to Go to Goalline = 1200 - 312 = 888

Green Bay has a 206 total yard advantage in field position

[MichiganPackerFan]

This all goes into the hidden yards of football, yards not reported and nearly impossible to compute in a reasonable amount of time for comparisons sake. You could compute it for a game, but to do a full season, or a full league/full season, is near a full time job.

But it doesn't have to be. The way they report stats makes it extremely difficult to get this info from NFL.com. If they added some key stats it would be possible to do. However you can calculate this by going line by line through the play by play game logs.

The hidden yards in football:

Kickoffs = Σ(Starting point - 20)
Punts = Σ(40 - Opp Punt Gross + Return yards - Penalty yards - Nullifed return yards)
Turnovers = Σ(Int return yards + Fumble Return Yards - Penalty yards)
Penalties = Σ(-Nullified play yards - Penalty yards) <- Only applies to post snap penalties that do not stop the play, but negate the play (O holding, O PI)

Hidden Yds Total = Kickoffs + Punts + Turnovers + Penalties
Net Hidden Yds = Hidden Yds Total - Opp Hidden Yds Total

In other Words:
Net Hidden Yds = ((Σ(Starting point - 20)) + (Σ(40 - Opp Punt Gross + Return yards - Penalty yards - Nullifed return yards)) + (Σ(Int return yards + Fumble Return Yards - Penalty yards)) + (Σ(-Nullified play yards - Penalty yards))) - Opp((Σ(Starting point - 20)) + (Σ(40 - Opp Punt Gross + Return yards - Penalty yards - Nullifed return yards)) + (Σ(Int return yards + Fumble Return Yards - Penalty yards)) + (Σ(-Nullified play yards - Penalty yards)))

Obviously the arbitrary 20 and 40 used for punt and KO's cancel when calculating it for a whole game (both teams), but this should capture all hidden yards not reported as O or D. In addition adding in presnap penalties (false start/alignment/procedure) and post play penalties (Personal fouls, D PI), all yards in a game should be captured, between O, D, and Hidden Yards.

My brain hurts. WAY too much to process on a monday

[MadScientist]

The simple response to the original question is this:
If field position doesn't matter so much, then why do we bitch so much about poor punt and kick returns, and even worse punt and kick coverage?

[Maxie the Taxi]

Here is how scout.com did it. I have no idea if McCarthy does this the same way.

Green Bay Starting Drive Field Position:

GB 38, GB 37, CHI 39, GB 39, GB 34, GB 40, GB 25, GB 25, CHI 11, GB 12, GB 28, CHI 10

Need to account for 100 yard possible distance to go, but 50 yard record keeping increments (Team X Side of the Field). We could convert all the yardage points to be yards to go to the end zone (GB 20 would mean 80 yards to opposing goalline), but then we need to adjust each possession on the Green Bay side of the field. Let's just adjust the yardage on Chicago side of the field to match the Green Bay side of the field (Chi 20 becomes GB 80, etc.)

GB 38, GB 37, GB 61, GB 39, GB 34, GB 40, GB 25, GB 25, GB 89, GB 12, GB 28, GB 90

Add them up and that would give you the total starting field position: 518 (should surprise no one that 518/12 = 43.17 avg start of drive)

Twelve Possessions gives a maximum yards to go of 12*100= 1200

1200-518 = 682 Total Yards to Go to Goalline for Green Bay

******

Bears: CHI 20, CHI 25, CHI 28, CHI 27, CHI 20, CHI 30, CHI 44, CHI 20, CHI 27, CHI 30, CHI 32, CHI 9

no possessions in GB territory so Total Starting Field Position: 312 on 12 possessions (12*100) means:

Total Yards to Go to Goalline = 1200 - 312 = 888

Green Bay has a 206 total yard advantage in field position

My hat's off. How did you figure that out?

I even went so far as to email the guy who wrote the article to see how/where he got the stat. (He hasn't got back to me of yet.)

My suspicion is that this is exactly how Stubby does it and that the stat was supplied to the reporter by the Packers. Just a hunch.

Also, if the avg. starting position for GB was the 43.17 yard line, and the avg. starting position for CHI was the 26 yard line. (Difference is 17.17 yds. Times 12 would check out to the 206!)

It seems to me this is a really good way to judge the total effectiveness of your squad. No wonder Stubby's in love with it.

Of course, you'd have to break it down by offense, defense, special teams, penalties, etc. to really get useful info.

I wonder if ranking this stat would correspond to the much-talked-about power ratings? Maybe it would be an even better ranking. Seems it should be available league wide somewhere.

[Note to Waldo: Thanks for the answer, but I won't be able to understand it fully until about 40 years from now and by then I'll be a stat! ]

[Maxie the Taxi]

The guy who wrote the article I referenced responded to my email. PBMAX was right in how the stats were compiled.

He got his info from Football Outsiders here:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/drivestats

This drive chart is really interesting.

Note on the "NET" chart that GB is ranked THIRD in the NFL behind the Colts and the Saints.

This should give us hope that the Pack might do well head-to-head with mostly all the teams -- so long as they continue to excell in takeaways/giveaways.