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I love how the people that whine that Thompson doesn't sign enough FAs whine when people point out that most of the people they wanted were busts. Whatever.
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"There's a lot of interest in the draft. It's great. But quite frankly, most of the people that are commenting on it don't know anything about what they are talking about."--Ted Thompson -
+1Originally posted by HarveyWallbangers
TT knows what he is doing, you build winners thru the draft.
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I don't mind people saying that they'd like to see Ted sign some more FAs or pointing out one or two that they'd like, but there are a lot of people that just go nutso because Thompson doesn't sign every big name out there. I think this year proves that Thompson can indeed find talent. Last year was mostly bad luck (injuries, close losses) and poor coaching on defense. I'm so excited for the future of this team."There's a lot of interest in the draft. It's great. But quite frankly, most of the people that are commenting on it don't know anything about what they are talking about."--Ted ThompsonComment
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but but but . .Originally posted by HarveyWallbangers
But he's cheap
But he wont sign big FAs
But he's afraid to make a bold move
But he is a Turtle
But he has a huge ego
(TT has maxed out the cap every single season)
(See Charles Woodson)
(See Clay Matthews)
(he appears human)
(see a dictionary, then look at Jerry Jones, then watch a TT conference)Comment
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Its Texas. You never know.Originally posted by missionFor a little lean? Nawww... guys are out there murdering people and getting a month upstate.Originally posted by pbmaxFair point.Originally posted by red
Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.Comment
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What do you say we spread some of that Kool-Aid drinking poster love around?Originally posted by Bretsky
No method of player acquisition is fool-proof. And each has its particular pitfall (draft takes time and quality coaching, FA costs money, risks higher rate of injury and hinders development). But I don't think anyone here would vote NO on a referendum to encourage T2 to spend more money in FA.
But in truth we have no numbers on how these guys impact their teams or how long they play effectively. So its a very difficult call about how much of the team's resources should be tied up chasing FAs versus drafting and resigning your own.
Look at the O Line. From the final cuts on, the Packers looked very thin at Tackle. At that point, many wished Thompson had invested in a veteran. But a quick survey around the league shows that Pork Chop Womack and Orlando Pace didn't exactly work out as FAs.
Tauscher, even injured, helps mask this conundrum as does Clifton's return from injury. It also helps when you seem to have had a tremendous draft class this year. If Jones pans out and can play, then Thompson got a ridiculous number of starters in one year.Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.Comment
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My point is, as one poster let me know on the last page, that "it's more complicated than that."
That's exactly it. The whole business is complicated. So when there's the annual Thompson-hates-free-agents thing starts up, that's oversimplifying things, isn't it? When people try to engage in discussions about why it might not be smart to trade for Peppers or why it might not have been a good idea to outbid the Giants, or that maybe Canty didn't want to come to Green Bay, that sometimes gets swept aside as making excuses for Thompson. We get that whole "the bottom line is winning" and "if you're not doing everything max to win then you aren't doing your job" stuff. Those easy-to-spew cliches that dont' account for the complexity of the situation.
The same thing is currently happening in terms of the reaction to the Chillar signing. There's a nice thread here about that contract - a really good one that tries to break down the contract and think about its implications. Yet there are also comments in some places (I see them all over the JSO and GBPG) about why Collins hasn't been given a new contract. There's this strange perception that somehow TT is being reckless by not having a contract in Collins's hands now.
Do people really think that Ted Thompson has no idea about how well Collins is playing? Do people really think he's just working on contracts for the Chillars and the other lesser lights on the team because he just doesn't feel like working something out for Collins? Do people really think he's not trying to figure out the best way to keep Collins's services and balancing that against what it will cost him regarding, say, Jolly and Pickett and not overpaying?
Here's a quote from a person comenting at the JSO that I found illuminating: "You blame Ted for NOT re-signing guys, then you blame him when he signs one of our better, emerging players. You blame him for NOT spending our cap money, then you blame him when we spend some..."
Okay, I'm not sure I agree that Chillar is an emerging player, but the rest of it rings true for me. Many people - and no, I was not aiming at Bretsky with this thread, he's not one of them - just flat out have decided that Thompson is wrong, wrong, wrong - and no matter what he does, it's the wrong thing. No matter what the record of the team is, he's a bad GM.
Can't we take into account the actual situation? Can't we look at Canty now and say gee, it was good he didn't get signed in Green Bay (cuz then how in the heck would Collins ever get a deal?). Can we acknowledge that Thompson has not done well on the offensive line (Colledge just is not playing consistently, and there's no left tackle waiting in the wings and Barbre and Giacomini don't seem to be the answer), that he seems to have screwed up by cutting Ryan, but that he's also molded a young team that is at 9-4 and has also found an excellent quarterback to follow up the Favre era? (And that ain't easy to do.)"The Devine era is actually worse than you remember if you go back and look at it."
KYPackComment
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Fritz, Very well written.
Actually, this is the first coming off-season where I think TT should go after a big name FA. I think he should pursue one of about 3 OTs. I don't know any of them personally, but if any of them are high character guys - then TT should go after them. Other than that, I completely agree that TT should not be signing very many FAs. Right now I think our roster is nearly complete and we just need a piece or two. Of course, this is only if we have any $$ left after signing our home-grown talent.Originally posted by pbmaxWhat do you say we spread some of that Kool-Aid drinking poster love around?Originally posted by Bretsky
No method of player acquisition is fool-proof. And each has its particular pitfall (draft takes time and quality coaching, FA costs money, risks higher rate of injury and hinders development). But I don't think anyone here would vote NO on a referendum to encourage T2 to spend more money in FA.
But in truth we have no numbers on how these guys impact their teams or how long they play effectively. So its a very difficult call about how much of the team's resources should be tied up chasing FAs versus drafting and resigning your own.
Look at the O Line. From the final cuts on, the Packers looked very thin at Tackle. At that point, many wished Thompson had invested in a veteran. But a quick survey around the league shows that Pork Chop Womack and Orlando Pace didn't exactly work out as FAs.
Tauscher, even injured, helps mask this conundrum as does Clifton's return from injury. It also helps when you seem to have had a tremendous draft class this year. If Jones pans out and can play, then Thompson got a ridiculous number of starters in one year.Comment
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I saw a list on the net of the top 10 UFA busts last season. If I find it, I'll post it here, but this class definitely had some stinkers that weren't worth the money. From Haynesworth on down, none of these guys came as advertised.
My question is, who was the FA signing that did the team that signed him a lot of good? I will plead lazy guy, I haven't looked. (TO wasn't one fer instance)
This season was absolutely the best one to not sign any high $ UFA's.Comment
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Here are the Free Agent O Lineman in 09:
Code:OT..........Samuel Allen......UFA (Cut)....San Diego Chargers.....Free Agent OG..........Stacy Andrews.....Signed.......Cincinnati Bengals.....Philadelphia Eagles OG..........Brandon X. Barnes.Signed.......Baltimore Ravens.......Indianapolis Colts OT..........Khalif Barnes.....Signed.......Jacksonville Jaguars...Oakland Raiders OL..........Kirk Barton.......Signed.......Cincinnati Bengals.....Detroit Lions OL..........Kirk Barton.......Signed.......Free Agent.............San Francisco 49ers OT..........D'Anthony Batiste.Signed.......Atlanta Falcons........Washington Redskins OT..........Joel Bell.........UFA (Cut)....Buffalo Bills..........Free Agent OG..........Jacob Bender......UFA (Cut)....San Francisco 49ers....Free Agent OG..........Joe Berger........Signed.......Dallas Cowboys.........Miami Dolphins OT..........Jordan Black......Signed.......Jacksonville Jaguars...Jacksonville Jaguars OT..........Jeremy Bridges....Signed.......Washington Redskins....Arizona Cardinals OT..........Wesley Britt......RFA..........New England Patriots...Free Agent OG..........Elton Brown.......UFA (Cut)....Arizona Cardinals......Free Agent OG..........Dan Buenning......UFA (Cut)....Chicago Bears..........Free Agent OL..........Glenn Bujnoch.....UFA (Cut)....Cincinnati Bengals.....Free Agent OL..........Rashad Butler.....Re-signed....Houston Texans.........Houston Texans OT..........Gerald Cadogan....UFA (Cut)....Carolina Panthers......Free Agent OT..........Gerald Cadogan....Signed.......Free Agent.............Cincinnati Bengals OT..........Gerald Cadogan....UFA (Cut)....Cincinnati Bengals.....Free Agent OT..........Gerald Cadogan....Signed.......Free Agent.............Philadelphia Eagles OT..........Vernon Carey......Re-signed....Miami Dolphins.........Miami Dolphins OG..........Cooper Carlisle...Re-signed....Oakland Raiders........Oakland Raiders OT..........Andrew Carnahan...Signed.......Kansas City Chiefs.....New York Giants OT..........Andrew Carnahan...UFA (Cut)....New York Giants........Free Agent OT..........Kirk Chambers.....Re-signed....Buffalo Bills..........Buffalo Bills OT..........Tyson Clabo.......Re-signed....Atlanta Falcons........Atlanta Falcons OT..........Richard Collier...RFA..........Jacksonville Jaguars...Free Agent OT..........Willie Colon......Re-signed....Pittsburgh Steelers....Pittsburgh Steelers OG..........Damion Cook.......Re-signed....Detroit Lions..........Detroit Lions OG..........Harvey Dahl.......Re-signed....Atlanta Falcons........Atlanta Falcons OT..........Anthony Davis.....UFA (Cut)....New Orleans Saints.....Free Agent OL..........Brian DeLa Puente.Signed.......Kansas City Chiefs.....Free Agent OL..........Brian DeLa Puente.UFA (Cut)....Seattle Seahawks.......Free Agent OT..........Doug Dedrick......UFA (Cut)....Houston Texans.........Free Agent OT..........Marc Dile.........UFA (Cut)....Tampa Bay Buccaneers...Free Agent OG..........Cedric Dockery....UFA (Cut)....New Orleans Saints.....Free Agent OG..........Derrick Dockery...Signed.......Buffalo Bills..........Washington Redskins OT..........Andre Douglas.....UFA (Cut)....Tampa Bay Buccaneers...Free Agent OL..........Damane Duckett....UFA (Cut)....New England Patriots...Free Agent OT..........Trai Essex........Re-signed....Pittsburgh Steelers....Pittsburgh Steelers OG..........Jahri Evans.......Re-signed....New Orleans Saints.....New Orleans Saints OG..........Jason Fabini......UFA..........Washington Redskins....Free Agent OG..........Paul Fanaika......Signed.......Philadelphia Eagles....Washington Redskins OT..........Dan Federkeil.....RFA..........Indianapolis Colts.....Free Agent OG..........Mike Fladell......UFA (Cut)....New York Jets..........Free Agent OG..........Shawn Flanagan....Re-signed....New Orleans Saints.....New Orleans Saints OG..........Toniu Fonoti......UFA (Cut)....Detroit Lions..........Free Agent OG..........Kynan Forney......Signed.......San Diego Chargers.....Jacksonville Jaguars OT..........George Foster.....UFA..........Detroit Lions..........Free Agent OT..........George Foster.....Signed.......Detroit Lions..........Cleveland Browns OL..........Renardo Foster....UFA..........Atlanta Falcons........Free Agent OT..........Michael Gibson....Signed.......Philadelphia Eagles....Seattle Seahawks OG..........Mike Goff.........Signed.......San Diego Chargers.....Kansas City Chiefs OT..........Adam Goldberg.....Re-signed....St. Louis Rams.........St. Louis Rams OT..........Brandon Gorin.....Signed.......St. Louis Rams.........Denver Broncos OT..........Jordan Gross......Re-signed....Carolina Panthers......Carolina Panthers OT..........Kwame Harris......UFA (Cut)....Oakland Raiders........Free Agent OG..........Eric Heitmann.....UFA..........San Francisco 49ers....Free Agent OT..........Corey Hilliard....Signed.......Indianapolis Colts.....Cleveland Browns OG..........Russ Hochstein....Re-signed....New England Patriots...New England Patriots OG..........Richie Incognito..Re-signed....St. Louis Rams.........St. Louis Rams OG..........Greg Isdaner......UFA (Cut)....Philadelphia Eagles....Free Agent OG..........Greg Isdaner......Signed.......Free Agent.............Dallas Cowboys OT..........Scott Jackson.....UFA..........Houston Texans.........Free Agent OL..........J.J. Jansen.......Signed.......Arizona Cardinals......Arizona Cardinals OT..........Jon Jansen........Signed.......Washington Redskins....Detroit Lions OT..........Jonas Jennings....UFA (Cut)....San Francisco 49ers....Free Agent OT..........Marcus Johnson....UFA (Cut)....Oakland Raiders........Free Agent OT..........Marcus Johnson....UFA (Cut)....Tampa Bay Buccaneers...Free Agent OG..........Adrian Jones......Signed.......Kansas City Chiefs.....Houston Texans OT..........Levi Jones........Signed.......Free Agent.............Washington Redskins OT..........Levi Jones........UFA (Cut)....Cincinnati Bengals.....Free Agent OG..........Chris Kemoeatu....Re-signed....Pittsburgh Steelers....Pittsburgh Steelers OG..........Pete Kendall......UFA..........Washington Redskins....Free Agent OG..........Scott Kooistra....Signed.......Free Agent.............Cincinnati Bengals OG..........Scott Kooistra....UFA (Cut)....Cincinnati Bengals.....Free Agent OT..........Mike Kracalik.....Signed.......Baltimore Ravens.......New York Jets OG..........Matt Lehr.........UFA..........New Orleans Saints.....Free Agent OT..........Cory Lekkerkerker.Signed.......Dallas Cowboys.........Tennessee Titans OG..........Matt Lentz........UFA (Cut)....Detroit Lions..........Free Agent OT..........Bobby Lepori......UFA (Cut)....Minnesota Vikings......Free Agent OT..........Cornelius Lewis...UFA (Cut)....Indianapolis Colts.....Free Agent OT..........Kyle Link.........UFA (Cut)....New York Jets..........Free Agent OG..........Daniel Loper......Signed.......Tennessee Titans.......Detroit Lions OG..........Sean Mahan........UFA (Cut)....Tampa Bay Buccaneers...Free Agent OL..........James Marten......UFA (Cut)....Oakland Raiders........Free Agent OL..........Nevin McCaskill...Signed.......Green Bay Packers......New York Jets OT..........Damion McIntosh...UFA (Cut)....Kansas City Chiefs.....Free Agent OT..........Sam McNaulty......UFA (Cut)....New Orleans Saints.....Free Agent OL..........Paul McQuistan....UFA (Cut)....Oakland Raiders........Free Agent OG..........Carlton Medder....Re-signed....Arizona Cardinals......Arizona Cardinals OG..........Terrence Metcalf..UFA (Cut)....Detroit Lions..........Free Agent OG..........Terrence Metcalf..UFA (Cut)....Chicago Bears..........Free Agent OT..........Fred Miller.......UFA..........Chicago Bears..........Free Agent OG..........Brandon Moore.....Re-signed....New York Jets..........New York Jets OG..........Edwin Mulitalo....UFA (Cut)....Detroit Lions..........Free Agent OT..........Chad Mustard......UFA (Cut)....Denver Broncos.........Free Agent OG..........Chris Naeole......UFA..........Jacksonville Jaguars...Free Agent OT..........Ryan O'Callaghan..Signed.......New England Patriots...Kansas City Chiefs OT..........Clint Oldenburg...Signed.......Free Agent.............Minnesota Vikings OT..........Frank Omiyale.....Signed.......Carolina Panthers......Chicago Bears OT..........Mike Otto.........RFA..........Tennessee Titans.......Free Agent OT..........Orlando Pace......Signed.......St. Louis Rams.........Chicago Bears OG..........Jonathan Palmer...Signed.......Free Agent.............Pittsburgh Steelers OT..........Augustus Parrish..UFA (Cut)....New Orleans Saints.....Free Agent OT..........Tony Pashos.......Signed.......Jacksonville Jaguars...San Francisco 49ers OG..........Erik Pears........Signed.......Denver Broncos.........Oakland Raiders OT..........Donald Penn.......Re-signed....Tampa Bay Buccaneers...Tampa Bay Buccaneers OG..........Stephen Peterman..Re-signed....Detroit Lions..........Detroit Lions OL..........Jermail Porter....Signed.......Free Agent.............Kansas City Chiefs OL..........Duke Preston......UFA (Cut)....Green Bay Packers......Free Agent OL..........Cory Procter......Re-signed....Dallas Cowboys.........Dallas Cowboys OL..........Kurt Quarterman...Signed.......Free Agent.............Detroit Lions OG..........Andrew Radovich...Signed.......Free Agent.............Indianapolis Colts OG..........Tutan Reyes.......Signed.......New York Giants........Houston Texans OT..........Stefan Rodgers....Signed.......Jacksonville Jaguars...Baltimore Ravens OG..........Isaiah Ross.......UFA (Cut)....Washington Redskins....Free Agent OT..........Oliver Ross.......Signed.......New England Patriots...Arizona Cardinals OT..........Jon Runyan........Signed.......Philadelphia Eagles....San Diego Chargers OT..........Ephraim Salaam....Signed.......Houston Texans.........Detroit Lions OL..........Tyler Schmitt.....UFA (Cut)....Seattle Seahawks.......Free Agent OT..........Kevin Shaffer.....Signed.......Cleveland Browns.......Chicago Bears OT..........L.J. Shelton......UFA (Cut)....San Diego Chargers.....Free Agent OT..........Marvel Smith......UFA..........Pittsburgh Steelers....Free Agent OL..........Isaac Sowells.....UFA (Cut)....Cleveland Browns.......Free Agent OT..........Charles Spencer...UFA (Cut)....Jacksonville Jaguars...Free Agent OT..........John St. Clair....Signed.......Chicago Bears..........Cleveland Browns OG..........Ryan Stanchek.....UFA (Cut)....Atlanta Falcons........Free Agent OT..........Max Starks........Re-signed....Pittsburgh Steelers....Pittsburgh Steelers OT..........Jon Stinchcomb....Re-signed....New Orleans Saints.....New Orleans Saints OL..........Barry Stokes......UFA..........New England Patriots...Free Agent OT..........Zach Strief.......RFA..........New Orleans Saints.....Free Agent OT..........Mark Tauscher.....UFA..........Green Bay Packers......Free Agent OT..........Mark Tauscher.....Signed.......Green Bay Packers......Green Bay Packers OT..........Herb Taylor.......Signed.......Free Agent.............Denver Broncos OT..........Herb Taylor.......UFA (Cut)....Kansas City Chiefs.....Free Agent OT..........Tra Thomas........Signed.......Philadelphia Eagles....Jacksonville Jaguars OL..........Brandon Torrey....Signed.......Tennessee Titans.......Houston Texans OL..........Michael Toudouze..Signed.......Free Agent.............Indianapolis Colts OT..........Elliot Vallejo....UFA (Cut)....Arizona Cardinals......Free Agent OG..........Mike Wahle........UFA (Cut)....Seattle Seahawks.......Retired OT..........Langston Walker...UFA (Cut)....Buffalo Bills..........Free Agent OT..........Seth Wand.........UFA..........Oakland Raiders........Free Agent OT..........Jason Watkins.....Signed.......Free Agent.............Buffalo Bills OG..........Fred Weary........Signed.......Houston Texans.........Cleveland Browns OT..........Chris L. White....UFA..........Houston Texans.........Free Agent OG..........Jason Whittle.....UFA..........Buffalo Bills..........Free Agent OG..........Ben Wilkerson.....UFA (Cut)....Atlanta Falcons........Free Agent OT..........Mike D. Williams..Signed.......Jacksonville Jaguars...Washington Redskins OT..........Ray Willis........Re-signed....Seattle Seahawks.......Seattle Seahawks OT..........Julius Wilson.....UFA (Cut)....Tampa Bay Buccaneers...Free Agent OG..........Floyd Womack......Signed.......Seattle Seahawks.......Cleveland Browns OG..........Tony Wragge.......RFA..........San Francisco 49ers....Free Agent OG..........Billy Yates.......Signed.......New England Patriots...Cleveland Browns OG..........Billy Yates.......UFA (Cut)....New England Patriots...Free Agent OT..........Eric Young........UFA (Cut)....St. Louis Rams.........Free Agent OT..........Eric Young........Signed.......Cleveland Browns.......St. Louis Rams OG..........Scott Young.......Signed.......Cleveland Browns.......Denver Broncos
Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.Comment
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The two biggest successes in free agency this year are two ex-Packers: Darren Sharper and Bert. Jason Taylor is also playing well now that he's back in Miami. Then are some fringe players, like Leonard Weaver and Gerbil Wilson, who are contributing with their new teams. But overall, yeah, a pretty sorry crop it was.Originally posted by KYPack
EDIT: I am not considering any FAs who resigned with their old teams. If you look at those too the the list of "good FAs" gets much longer.Comment
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It's not surprising that it is now rare to see a FA signing make a big impact on his new team. There will always be a few, but there are not as many as there were at one time.
During the first 10 years or so of unrestricted FA under a salary cap, most teams managed to get themselves into horrible cap situations. Very good, and even outstanding players were available simply because their teams couldn't afford to keep them, even though they badly wanted to. June 1 used to see another waive of cuts of mostly somewhat older players with expensive contracts. These players could be signed to relatively inexpensive contracts, some even for veteran minimum wages. Some were still very good, but with very short futures.
Teams finally figured it out, and most teams have the cap resources to sign those of their free agents that they really want to keep. As a result, the players who hit the FA market are not often the elite players and elite team mates. They have "baggage" of one kind or another: age, injury history, inconsistency, personality/locker room issues, etc. Many are players who their teams choose not to re-sign at the money it will take. As a result, there are a lot more potential mistakes out there than there were in Wolf's time, for example. Teams really have to do their homework. Many FAs will not live up to their contracts for the very reasons that their old teams did not re-sign them.
A few will earn their contracts. Many will not. The Vikings have done very well finding good ones and avoiding bad ones, while still being quite active. The Packers have done fairly well with their signings while being much more conservative in their approach than the Vikings.Comment
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Not signing Canty was a good move. The packers d-line is playing well. Should JH finally solve the injury bug even better.
TT must concentrate on drafting both lines.Comment
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I don't think Haynesworth is playing that bad. He isn't worth what they paid for him, but he isn't a total slouch - as I figured he would be.Originally posted by KYPack
The problem with Washington is that they are willing to put $10M per year into one position. They have chewed up $40M in guaranteed money (and cap hit) over the next 4 years. There is a finite amount of money and the team is forced to skimp on other positions. They can't afford to resign all their players, and they are in a position of constantly trying to maintain and patch the roster. The roster is constantly turning over which doesn't allow the players to gel and form a cohesive - effective unit.Comment
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AH's stats 29 tackles, 3 sacks, 5 Passes DefensedOriginally posted by cheesner
Real problem is he has played in 10/13 games. He has missed almost 25% of their games.But Rodgers leads the league in frumpy expressions and negative body language on the sideline, which makes him, like Josh Allen, a unique double threat.
-Tim HarmstonComment
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