Troy Aikman: The Genius

[Patler]

As I see it, the properties are all linked, but acceleration is the key. How quickly the head changes directions dominates how much the brain is jarred.

Relative acceleration of the brain and skull are important, because their masses do not change from one hit to another. But you are thinking of only half of the problem. To create those changes in acceleration to the skull and brain you have to apply force, the force applied from another player is determined by both the mass and acceleration of that player. Lessen the mass and you lessen the force. Lessen the force applied by player #2 and you lessen the acceleration of player #1's brain and skull.

[sharpe1027]

Maybe, but wouldn't you have to assume that a player's head is (relatively) independent from the rest of the player and that whatever is striking the player's head is dependent on the striking player's mass?

Otherwise, you just have situation where player A and B reduce their mass, reduce their force, but result in the same acceleration. Or you would have the situation where their masses don't matter at all.

Many concussions result from slamming to the turf (often largely determined by the acceleration of gravity), hitting the head with another player's head (mostly determined by speed of impact), or the head striking an extremity (knee or leg) of a another player (not very dependent on the total mass of player).

Basically my point is that a bunch of super fast little guys are probably nearly as likely to get concussions as a bunch of super fast big guys.

Broken bones, bruising and destroyed tendons are a completely different issue.

[Patler]

Maybe, but wouldn't you have to assume that a player's head is (relatively) independent from the rest of the player and that whatever is striking the player's head is dependent on the striking player's mass?

Otherwise, you just have situation where player A and B reduce their mass, reduce their force, but result in the same acceleration. Or you would have the situation where their masses don't matter at all.

The mass of the player who you are concerned with is also important. The mass of each player is important due to all those things about bodies at rest wanting to stay at rest, moving bodies resisting changes, etc. Then, of course the brain in the skull is a whole different but related system to the larger system of the bodies. Then, too, there are shock absorbing effects (with consequences sometimes) of a players neck, their body types and characteristics have impact, etc. These "accidents" are actually quite complex.

Many concussions result from slamming to the turf (often largely determined by the acceleration of gravity), hitting the head with another player's head (mostly determined by speed of impact), or the head striking an extremity (knee or leg) of a another player (not very dependent on the total mass of player).

Basically my point is that a bunch of super fast little guys are probably nearly as likely to get concussions as a bunch of super fast big guys.

Broken bones, bruising and destroyed tendons are a completely different issue.

I never discounted speed. In fact, I facetiously suggested making the players smaller and slower to decrease the incidents of concussion, and I stick by that!

[Noodle]

Mass times acceleration equals force, right?

You won't affect mass, but you can affect acceleration by making players a little more wary. And the way you do that is to make the players feel a little less invunerable by changing the helmet from a weapon, which it is today, in to a protective device.

BTW, squishy material as a shell does not work for a helmet, because it causes torque injuries. A plastic shell is good at reducing torque, but so would a leather shell.

[Maxie the Taxi]

The Future!

[RashanGary]

Rather than hit the person with an open palm as you suggested, try using a sledgehammer. How fast do you have to swing it? Not very.

Mass counts!

Try organizing that same sledge hammer mass into the shape and materials of a person and rather than focusing all of the mass into jsut the striking head, organize it throughout a body.


Mass counts, like I said from teh very start, but the importance you're putting on it, comparing it to F=MA and a sledge hammer, I think you're putting way more importance on it than it has in this application. Way over simplifying it.

Not saying I have it all figured out, but I disagreed with some of your logic.

[Patler]

Mass times acceleration equals force, right?

You won't affect mass, but you can affect acceleration by making players a little more wary. And the way you do that is to make the players feel a little less invunerable by changing the helmet from a weapon, which it is today, in to a protective device.

That is the exact argument that has been made in hockey, which has had mandated helmet use for only 25 years or so. Players think they are invulnerable, and their opponents are "depersonalized" by wearing helmets.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Mass times acceleration equals force, right?

You won't affect mass, but you can affect acceleration by making players a little more wary. And the way you do that is to make the players feel a little less invunerable by changing the helmet from a weapon, which it is today, in to a protective device.

That is the exact argument that has been made in hockey, which has had mandated helmet use for only 25 years or so. Players think they are invulnerable, and their opponents are "depersonalized" by wearing helmets.

Maybe they should outlaw jock straps and cups too. Talk about "depersonalizing" the opposition.

[sharpe1027]

The mass of the player who you are concerned with is also important. The mass of each player is important due to all those things about bodies at rest wanting to stay at rest, moving bodies resisting changes, etc. Then, of course the brain in the skull is a whole different but related system to the larger system of the bodies. Then, too, there are shock absorbing effects (with consequences sometimes) of a players neck, their body types and characteristics have impact, etc. These "accidents" are actually quite complex.

Yeah, but unless there is a disparity between the masses of the two objects, increasing or decreasing the masses of each player cancels any changes. i.e., one player wants to stay in motion, the other wants to remain stopped, changing the ratio of their masses is the only thing that will modify the overall acceleration.

I never discounted speed. In fact, I facetiously suggested making the players smaller and slower to decrease the incidents of concussion, and I stick by that!

I just think that having a bunch of smaller players won't have much of an effect. Adjusting the relative size differences between players might, but not making everyone smaller.

[Patler]

Rather than hit the person with an open palm as you suggested, try using a sledgehammer. How fast do you have to swing it? Not very.

Mass counts!

Try organizing that same sledge hammer mass into the shape of a person and rather than focusing all of the mass into jsut the striking head, organize it throughout a body.


Mass counts, like I said from teh very start, but the importance you're putting on it, comparing it to F=MA and a sledge hammer, I think you're putting way more importance on it than it has in this application. Way over simplifying it.

Not saying I have it all figured out, but I disagreed with some of your logic.

Actually, all I said was if you make the players smaller and slower you would have fewer concussions. Others immediately questioned if mass mattered at all, and I have said that it does. Force is important, whether force on the body or force of the impact of the brain against the skull. The mass of the skull and brain do not change, so in that small part of the system acceleration would seem to rule in determining force. But, changing that acceleration requires force, so mass comes into play, too.

Now we could look at which has mattered more, players going from "x lbs." to "y lbs" or from former speeds to current speeds, but there are too many anatomical variations from player to player to really have much validity.

I stick by the premise I put forth, if you have slower and smaller players you will have fewer concussions. You will never eliminate them. Some players get concussions without direct skull impact, some get them from fairly insignificant actions.

I think the real problem is the air headed players. Too much room in their skills for their pea-sized brains to bounce around!

[pbmax]

Speed and mass are not the only reasons concussions have increased, though they can make them worse. The techniques modern players use subjects them to a greater risk of concussions as well. Especially for non-lineman.

The problem created by the modern helmet, is that it allows players to both lead with their head on a hit and use it as a weapon. They are is little danger of a laceration (unless you are Chuck Cecil) or a skull fracture, as these were the kinds of injuries the modern helmet and facemask were designed to solve.

We see examples of players doing this every game, whether to deliver the kill shot on a receiver catching the ball or a player trying to knock the ball loose from a RB. And contrary to their public pronouncements, coaches teach (sometimes) and reward (always) this kind of hit.

When helmets were not such surefire protection against an injury that would cause you to leave the game, different techniques were used. In rugby, I have read, players in many situations are taught to put their head behind the runner they are tacking. If you stood a chance of a fracture or laceration that would take you out of the game, LBs and DBs would not be so fast to use the crown of the helmet to try and cause a fumble.

But there are situations where there are no analogues to football plays for safety guidance. 5 offensive lineman and 4 or five defensive players collide on every play on the LOS and often collide head first. The resulting G forces of these hits can reach between 20 and 30 Gs. Not as high as more spectacular collisions, but they happen every play. A fundamental change would need to happen in football to reduce these collisions or change their point of impact. Player caution would only be one step. Line play, technique and rules would need to change dramatically as well.

[Guiness]

The use of helmets in hockey is relatively recent. It wasn't too many years ago (10 years or so) there were still a few NHL players who did not wear them as they were "grandfathered in" under the old rules. Many argue that the use of helmets changed the game dramatically, making it more violent, with players not respecting each other's or their own vulnerabilities, and actually increasing the frequency of concussions as a result.

Put me (at least partially) in that camp.

In theory, a good idea. Ice is hard, you get knocked on you can and bounce your melon off the ice, it can do a lot of damage. Helmets prevent that.

Problem is, helmets went on, sticks came up. A stick bouncing harmlessly off someone's helmet gets you a dirty look. A stick hitting someone in the head gets you beat up.

It got worse with the face shields, which mostly came about because there were a few high profile cases of someone getting hit full in the face with a puck.

One of the problems hockey suffers from is that players have gotten bigger, faster and stronger. The problem is more apparent in hockey because of the very limited space the game is played in. The average NHL player is 25lbs heavier than he was just before the expansion of the league in '67.

[Guiness]

Quite the thread...

Many concussions result from slamming to the turf (often largely determined by the acceleration of gravity), hitting the head with another player's head (mostly determined by speed of impact), or the head striking an extremity (knee or leg) of a another player (not very dependent on the total mass of player).

This is because of the rapid acceleration by these sort of hits. When your head hits the frozen ground (or a very hard knee, or skull) there is no 'give'. It goes from whatever speed directly to zero in a short period of time - resulting in a very high acceleration.

If the speed drops from 10m/s to 0m/s in 0.01 seconds, the acceleration is 10x greater than if the speed change occurred in 0.1 seconds - for a relatively small change in time of 0.09 seconds!

True that these types of injuries aren't necessarily affected by player's mass, and I think they've always been around. Rugby suddenly becomes a much more dangerous sport when the temperature drops in the Great White North!

[ThunderDan]

Quite the thread...

Many concussions result from slamming to the turf (often largely determined by the acceleration of gravity), hitting the head with another player's head (mostly determined by speed of impact), or the head striking an extremity (knee or leg) of a another player (not very dependent on the total mass of player).

This is because of the rapid acceleration by these sort of hits. When your head hits the frozen ground (or a very hard knee, or skull) there is no 'give'. It goes from whatever speed directly to zero in a short period of time - resulting in a very high acceleration.

If the speed drops from 10m/s to 0m/s in 0.01 seconds, the acceleration is 10x greater than if the speed change occurred in 0.1 seconds - for a relatively small change in time of 0.09 seconds!

True that these types of injuries aren't necessarily affected by player's mass, and I think they've always been around. Rugby suddenly becomes a much more dangerous sport when the temperature drops in the Great White North!

And as we all remember from physics.

F=ma
F=1/2mvv (velocity squared)

Players and hits that are going twice as fast deliver 4x the force.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I'll simplify this for all you eggheads:

The bigger the hit, the bigger the hurt.