CARDS SAW A WEAKNESS AND EXPLOITED IT

[sharpe1027]

Get over Mike McKenzie. You won't be seeing NO picking him up to play this week.

Also, they did not attack Bigby. They went much shorter in the middle. If a safety was getting torched, my bet would be Collins, not Bigby at this point.

I would suggest reading this: http://www.jsonline.com/packerinsider/81142762.html

Baranczyk covers the problem he believes the Packers had with the combo routes and the middle of the field. He also agrees with KYPack's dissection of the options available to the Packers for more pressure. He sees them as dismal, as currently staffed.

I don't have insider, so I can't comment directly on what the articles says.

It seemed to me that several of the big plays happened when the safety bit hard on the sideline receiver and then Warner threw over the top down the middle. Bigby's backup seemed to have no range, and had to commit early and couldn't recover. Of course there were so many big offensive plays you can pick and choose from them however you want.

[bobblehead]

How many of those 10+ wide open catches were Bush's fault? Maybe a couple. I bet Woodson got beat as much as Bush....

Bigby was out and the announcers didn't even notice. The scrubs we had in were killing us. Bush was not the biggest of the problems out there. He's just a convenient scape goat.

Woodson got beat twice against Fitzgerald. Both for TDs. At least one could have been called an offensive PI. Maybe both. But probably just the second one. I can't blame Woodson for those. I think there were two other passes where he was around the play, but I don't know if those were his assignments or if he was free-lancing over to the play.

Woodson gets beat, and we make excuses. Bush is hardly heard from and everyone blames him.

Agaiin, not making excuses for woodson (other than fitz plowing into him and no call). He didn't play great. Also not making excuses for bush...give me a break...not heard from??? What game were you watching??

Where as you have to pretend you know the coverage and responsibilities of Bigby to claim he was out of position, Bush was the obvious cover guy getting beaten time after time.

[Smidgeon]

How many of those 10+ wide open catches were Bush's fault? Maybe a couple. I bet Woodson got beat as much as Bush....

Bigby was out and the announcers didn't even notice. The scrubs we had in were killing us. Bush was not the biggest of the problems out there. He's just a convenient scape goat.

Woodson got beat twice against Fitzgerald. Both for TDs. At least one could have been called an offensive PI. Maybe both. But probably just the second one. I can't blame Woodson for those. I think there were two other passes where he was around the play, but I don't know if those were his assignments or if he was free-lancing over to the play.

Woodson gets beat, and we make excuses. Bush is hardly heard from and everyone blames him.

Maybe it's because of how they were beat. You know perfectly well that Bush isn't in Woodson's class. And if you watched the game, you also know perfectly well that Woodson wasn't "simply beat". It isn't excuses.

[pbmax]

Get over Mike McKenzie. You won't be seeing NO picking him up to play this week.

Also, they did not attack Bigby. They went much shorter in the middle. If a safety was getting torched, my bet would be Collins, not Bigby at this point.

I would suggest reading this: http://www.jsonline.com/packerinsider/81142762.html

Baranczyk covers the problem he believes the Packers had with the combo routes and the middle of the field. He also agrees with KYPack's dissection of the options available to the Packers for more pressure. He sees them as dismal, as currently staffed.

Problem is, Bigby was no where to be found in middle - short, mid, or deep, against the run or against the pass. He covered no one and offered no help. When he did bumble into a play, which wasn't often, he was missing tackles, grabbing facemasks and otherwise sucking ass.

Outside of Matthews, our D line created no pressure, so our defense was forced to match their formations, which meant having our shitty players on the field (namely Bush, who couldn't figure out who to cover, much less fail at trying to cover them, and Chillar, who looked like a boob as usual), and Arizona exposed them for what they are. Bigby is what he is and couldn't offer anything to offset those mismatches. Too bad, so sad. We need to find a lot of safety help before next fall for those times when our D line is struggling.

Bigby was usually deep middle. And they were throwing lots of seams, ins and slants I think. Most of the action was in front of him. Very few plays got to his level during the throw. I am not saying he played well, but the underneath guys were in trouble first on most plays.

[sharpe1027]

How many of those 10+ wide open catches were Bush's fault? Maybe a couple. I bet Woodson got beat as much as Bush....

Bigby was out and the announcers didn't even notice. The scrubs we had in were killing us. Bush was not the biggest of the problems out there. He's just a convenient scape goat.

Woodson got beat twice against Fitzgerald. Both for TDs. At least one could have been called an offensive PI. Maybe both. But probably just the second one. I can't blame Woodson for those. I think there were two other passes where he was around the play, but I don't know if those were his assignments or if he was free-lancing over to the play.

Woodson gets beat, and we make excuses. Bush is hardly heard from and everyone blames him.

Agaiin, not making excuses for woodson (other than fitz plowing into him and no call). He didn't play great. Also not making excuses for bush...give me a break...not heard from??? What game were you watching??

Where as you have to pretend you know the coverage and responsibilities of Bigby to claim he was out of position, Bush was the obvious cover guy getting beaten time after time.

I don't pretend to know anything. I didn't say Bigby was out of position. I said his replacement didn't seem to have much range. Settle down big boy, some of us are just trying to discuss the game. No need to get all bent out of shape and start slinging accusations.

[sharpe1027]

Agaiin, not making excuses for woodson (other than fitz plowing into him and no call). He didn't play great. Also not making excuses for bush...give me a break...not heard from??? What game were you watching??

Where as you have to pretend you know the coverage and responsibilities of Bigby to claim he was out of position, Bush was the obvious cover guy getting beaten time after time.

Here's the problem, when I say I didn't think Bush was our main problem, people pretend to know the coverages and tell me that it was Bush's fault. Meanwhile, I get blasted for pointing out that our backup seemed too slow to cover much ground.

[sharpe1027]

Maybe it's because of how they were beat. You know perfectly well that Bush isn't in Woodson's class. And if you watched the game, you also know perfectly well that Woodson wasn't "simply beat". It isn't excuses.

Woodson was beat. What kind of coverage was he planning to do by standing in Fitz's way 20+ yards down the field? It was an extremely ackward looking. Maybe Woodson wasn't playing Fitz, he was trying to read Warner and that is why he got beat.

I was screaming about offensive PI when I first watched it, but damn if it just didn't look like Woodson got caught not playing the WR.

[Smidgeon]

Maybe it's because of how they were beat. You know perfectly well that Bush isn't in Woodson's class. And if you watched the game, you also know perfectly well that Woodson wasn't "simply beat". It isn't excuses.

Woodson was beat. What kind of coverage was he planning to do by standing in Fitz's way 20+ yards down the field? It was an extremely ackward looking. Maybe Woodson wasn't playing Fitz, he was trying to read Warner and that is why he got beat.

I was screaming about offensive PI when I first watched it, but damn if it just didn't look like Woodson got caught not playing the WR.

Well, if Woodson was playing the QB and the ball and not the WR, Fitz can't run over him. At all. Them's the rules.

[Freak Out]

Get over Mike McKenzie. You won't be seeing NO picking him up to play this week.

Also, they did not attack Bigby. They went much shorter in the middle. If a safety was getting torched, my bet would be Collins, not Bigby at this point.

I would suggest reading this: http://www.jsonline.com/packerinsider/81142762.html

Baranczyk covers the problem he believes the Packers had with the combo routes and the middle of the field. He also agrees with KYPack's dissection of the options available to the Packers for more pressure. He sees them as dismal, as currently staffed.

Problem is, Bigby was no where to be found in middle - short, mid, or deep, against the run or against the pass. He covered no one and offered no help. When he did bumble into a play, which wasn't often, he was missing tackles, grabbing facemasks and otherwise sucking ass.

Outside of Matthews, our D line created no pressure, so our defense was forced to match their formations, which meant having our shitty players on the field (namely Bush, who couldn't figure out who to cover, much less fail at trying to cover them, and Chillar, who looked like a boob as usual), and Arizona exposed them for what they are. Bigby is what he is and couldn't offer anything to offset those mismatches. Too bad, so sad. We need to find a lot of safety help before next fall for those times when our D line is struggling.

Bigby was usually deep middle. And they were throwing lots of seams, ins and slants I think. Most of the action was in front of him. Very few plays got to his level during the throw. I am not saying he played well, but the underneath guys were in trouble first on most plays.

The plays I remember were right in between the LBs zone and the safety and seemed to be perfectly thrown/timed. The Zona OL played lights out and Warner with time is going to hit receivers with that much talent.

[MOBB DEEP]

mike mckenzie

i love u

[sharpe1027]

Well, if Woodson was playing the QB and the ball and not the WR, Fitz can't run over him. At all. Them's the rules.

If Fitz is running a route beyond 5 yards, the Woodson can't impede his route. At all. Them's the real rules...

[Smidgeon]

Well, if Woodson was playing the QB and the ball and not the WR, Fitz can't run over him. At all. Them's the rules.

If Fitz is running a route beyond 5 yards, the Woodson can't impede his route. At all. Them's the real rules...

That's if the CB is playing the WR. If he isn't playing the WR, he has as much right to that spot on the field as the WR does. Especially if he's playing a zone and watching the ball. I don't know if he was playing a zone and watching the ball, I'm just saying that not all scenarios say Woodson "just got beat". He could have been playing a deep zone. He could have recognized a play and moved off the WR to something else he saw. If either were the case and Fitzgerald ran into him, that's offensive PI.

[sharpe1027]

Rather than guess about the rules and make up our own stuff, bolded points are particularly interesting:




4. It is pass interference by either team when any player movement beyond the line of scrimmage significantly hinders the progress of an eligible player of such player’s opportunity to catch the ball. Offensive pass interference rules apply from the time the ball is snapped until the ball is touched. Defensive pass interference rules apply from the time the ball is thrown until the ball is touched.

Actions that constitute defensive pass interference include but are not limited to:

(a) Contact by a defender who is not playing the ball and such contact restricts the receiver’s opportunity to make the catch.

(b) Playing through the back of a receiver in an attempt to make a play on the ball.

(c) Grabbing a receiver’s arm(s) in such a manner that restricts his opportunity to catch a pass.

(d) Extending an arm across the body of a receiver thus restricting his ability to catch a pass, regardless of whether the defender is playing the ball.

(e) Cutting off the path of a receiver by making contact with him without playing the ball.

(f) Hooking a receiver in an attempt to get to the ball in such a manner that it causes the receiver’s body to turn prior to the ball arriving.

Actions that do not constitute pass interference include but are not limited to:

(a) Incidental contact by a defender’s hands, arms, or body when both players are competing for the ball, or neither player is looking for the ball. If there is any question whether contact is incidental, the ruling shall be no interference.

(b) Inadvertent tangling of feet when both players are playing the ball or neither player is playing the ball.

(c) Contact that would normally be considered pass interference, but the pass is clearly uncatchable by the involved players.

(d) Laying a hand on a receiver that does not restrict the receiver in an attempt to make a play on the ball.

(e) Contact by a defender who has gained position on a receiver in an attempt to catch the ball.

Actions that constitute offensive pass interference include but are not limited to:

(a) Blocking downfield by an offensive player prior to the ball being touched.

(b) Initiating contact with a defender by shoving or pushing off thus creating a separation in an attempt to catch a pass.

(c) Driving through a defender who has established a position on the field.

Actions that do not constitute offensive pass interference include but are not limited to:

(a) Incidental contact by a receiver’s hands, arms, or body when both players are competing for the ball or neither player is looking for the ball.

(b) Inadvertent touching of feet when both players are playing the ball or neither player is playing the ball.

(c) Contact that would normally be considered pass interference, but the ball is clearly uncatchable by involved players.

Note 1: If there is any question whether player contact is incidental, the ruling should be no interference.

Note 2: Defensive players have as much right to the path of the ball as eligible offensive players.

Note 3: Pass interference for both teams ends when the pass is touched.

Note 4: There can be no pass interference at or behind the line of scrimmage, but defensive actions such as tackling a receiver can still result in a 5-yard penalty for defensive holding, if accepted.

Note 5: Whenever a team presents an apparent punting formation, defensive pass interference is not to be called for action on the end man on the line of scrimmage, or an eligible receiver behind the line of scrimmage who is aligned or in motion more than one yard outside the end man on the line. Defensive holding, such as tackling a receiver, still can be called and result in a 5-yard penalty and automatic first down from the previous spot, if accepted. Offensive pass interference rules still apply.

[Smidgeon]

Good stuff. The only question that remains then is this: Did Woodson fall down on his own, because of incidental contact, or because Fitzgerald gave him enough of a push to "create separation to catch the pass"? I'm not about to go back and replay the game to find out, but I believe our original point of debate was the difference between Bush's blown coverage and Woodson's coverage. I think on all of the passes thrown against Woodson, he was competetive on the route or ball on all of them. Bush? I can't say. I wasn't really watching him, but many posters have said that he was lagging on his routes.

[ThunderDan]

Rather than guess about the rules and make up our own stuff, bolded points are particularly interesting:




4. It is pass interference by either team when any player movement beyond the line of scrimmage significantly hinders the progress of an eligible player of such player’s opportunity to catch the ball. Offensive pass interference rules apply from the time the ball is snapped until the ball is touched. Defensive pass interference rules apply from the time the ball is thrown until the ball is touched.

Actions that constitute defensive pass interference include but are not limited to:

(a) Contact by a defender who is not playing the ball and such contact restricts the receiver’s opportunity to make the catch.

(b) Playing through the back of a receiver in an attempt to make a play on the ball.

(c) Grabbing a receiver’s arm(s) in such a manner that restricts his opportunity to catch a pass.

(d) Extending an arm across the body of a receiver thus restricting his ability to catch a pass, regardless of whether the defender is playing the ball.

(e) Cutting off the path of a receiver by making contact with him without playing the ball.

(f) Hooking a receiver in an attempt to get to the ball in such a manner that it causes the receiver’s body to turn prior to the ball arriving.

Actions that do not constitute pass interference include but are not limited to:

(a) Incidental contact by a defender’s hands, arms, or body when both players are competing for the ball, or neither player is looking for the ball. If there is any question whether contact is incidental, the ruling shall be no interference.

(b) Inadvertent tangling of feet when both players are playing the ball or neither player is playing the ball.

(c) Contact that would normally be considered pass interference, but the pass is clearly uncatchable by the involved players.

(d) Laying a hand on a receiver that does not restrict the receiver in an attempt to make a play on the ball.

(e) Contact by a defender who has gained position on a receiver in an attempt to catch the ball.

Actions that constitute offensive pass interference include but are not limited to:

(a) Blocking downfield by an offensive player prior to the ball being touched.

(b) Initiating contact with a defender by shoving or pushing off thus creating a separation in an attempt to catch a pass.

(c) Driving through a defender who has established a position on the field.

Actions that do not constitute offensive pass interference include but are not limited to:

(a) Incidental contact by a receiver’s hands, arms, or body when both players are competing for the ball or neither player is looking for the ball.

(b) Inadvertent touching of feet when both players are playing the ball or neither player is playing the ball.

(c) Contact that would normally be considered pass interference, but the ball is clearly uncatchable by involved players.

Note 1: If there is any question whether player contact is incidental, the ruling should be no interference.

Note 2: Defensive players have as much right to the path of the ball as eligible offensive players.

Note 3: Pass interference for both teams ends when the pass is touched.

Note 4: There can be no pass interference at or behind the line of scrimmage, but defensive actions such as tackling a receiver can still result in a 5-yard penalty for defensive holding, if accepted.

Note 5: Whenever a team presents an apparent punting formation, defensive pass interference is not to be called for action on the end man on the line of scrimmage, or an eligible receiver behind the line of scrimmage who is aligned or in motion more than one yard outside the end man on the line. Defensive holding, such as tackling a receiver, still can be called and result in a 5-yard penalty and automatic first down from the previous spot, if accepted. Offensive pass interference rules still apply.

I think Note 2 at the bottom needs to be read by every offical, just in general and not just last nights game.